Quote from: Skarg;969705I meant stuff where characters have something like one Physical Combat rating that can be from 1 to 5, ignore equipment, and you just beat anyone with a lower combat rating unless they spend a narrativium point, or you roll as many $10 novelty dice and the number of cool skull symbols you roll is the defeat level or something.

Are there any examples of such games? The lighest system I've seen is Cthulhu Dark and it doesn't meet the first description and the second sounds like it doesn't exist at all.

I thought it was long ago established in this forum that "traditional" is "what was current and familiar when the speaker first played RPGs, or anything that feels like that even if it isn't really" and "non-traditional" is "everything else in RPGs".

It also depends on which version of Paranoia you're talking about. The newest edition is most definitely not a traditional rpg, in my mind. It does a number of things that are wildly different such as initiative, character creation, and GM fiat to adjudicate the majority of what happens.

I suspect what is defined as traditional often has more to do with the publication date than mechanics.

Quote from: Dumarest;969696No, all RPGs don't.

which ones dont?

Quote from: Voros;969712Are there any examples of such games? The lighest system I've seen is Cthulhu Dark and it doesn't meet the first description and the second sounds like it doesn't exist at all.

Well, I thought so, but maybe not, as I have a reaction like vampire in sunlight to some games, but that was what I thought I was seeing when I looked at things like the Firefly RPG, or Mage: The Ascension (i.e. attributes in the 1-5 range), and when I have been reading about some of the narrativium games under discussion in threads here it sounds like they tend to have expensive custom dice with pictures and a system where your character's non-literal attributes determine the number of dice you roll, hoping for certain symbols and not other symbols in a complex but not literal way. That sort of thing seems very non-traditional to me but it's also the opposite of what I generally want and I tend to have very limited knowledge of such so I could be wrong...

Quote from: Psikerlord;969730which ones dont?

Quite a few games break from those criteria in at least one way. For example, here are some diceless games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diceless_role-playing_game

There are also a handful of games, like Scarlet Heroes, that can be played by a single person without the usual GM, as well as a ton of mostly indie games that don't use a GM at all. Examples include How We Came to Live Here and Everyone is John. A quick Google search for GM-less tabletop rpgs should give you a long list of such games.

As for not being designed to be played around a table by a group, I think Monte Cook was running a Kickstarter not too long ago for a game that was supposed to be played partially away from the table. I didn't follow it too closely, however, as the price tag alone was enough to make me lose interest given the vague description.

Quote from: Brand55;969743Quite a few games break from those criteria in at least one way. For example, here are some diceless games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diceless_role-playing_game

There are also a handful of games, like Scarlet Heroes, that can be played by a single person without the usual GM, as well as a ton of mostly indie games that don't use a GM at all. Examples include How We Came to Live Here and Everyone is John. A quick Google search for GM-less tabletop rpgs should give you a long list of such games.

As for not being designed to be played around a table by a group, I think Monte Cook was running a Kickstarter not too long ago for a game that was supposed to be played partially away from the table. I didn't follow it too closely, however, as the price tag alone was enough to make me lose interest given the vague description.

hmmm yeah ok, i guess I'ev always thought of RPGs as: GM, players, dice, go!

But obviously there are some big variants out there. GMless particularly. I'm not so sure I'd call a game withotu randomisers an RPG though (no dice or whatever). That might actually be what I would call a "story game- " because the random has been taken out. Solo RPG, yeah, I dont think there's really any roleplaying involved in a solo game since it's just you. I do think you can certainly play some dice based RPGs solo, but it's a different kind of fun, more akin to a game book like Fighting Fantasy, etc.

But I certainly take your point. The definition is broader than I imagined

Useless discussion.  Traditional is one of the terms a Distinction Denier will go the mattresses for every time.  Using it just ensures any point you may try to make will get deliberately obfuscated in definition war.

Quote from: CRKrueger;969755Useless discussion.  Traditional is one of the terms a Distinction Denier will go the mattresses for every time.  Using it just ensures any point you may try to make will get deliberately obfuscated in definition war.

And "Distinction Denier" is better, is it?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;969756And "Distinction Denier" is better, is it?

Better?  As a definition, it's somewhat less subjective and is clearer.  Some people deny any distinction between different types of RPGs and fight any and all attempts at sub-classification. Why, you'd have to ask them.  I suspect it's due to questioning the motives of the people discussing the subject, that there is some fear that if a classification is agreed to "they" will "do something bad with it" or maybe it's just trolling for kicks, could be just basic tribalism or since it's this site, anti-Punditry. Who knows?

Quote from: CRKrueger;969758Better?  As a definition, it's somewhat less subjective and is clearer.  Some people deny any distinction between different types of RPGs and fight any and all attempts at sub-classification. Why, you'd have to ask them.  I suspect it's due to questioning the motives of the people discussing the subject, that there is some fear that if a classification is agreed to "they" will "do something bad with it" or maybe it's just trolling for kicks, could be just basic tribalism or since it's this site, anti-Punditry. Who knows?

I dunno. Labelling anybody as a "Distinction Denier" sounds a lot like tribalism and trolling for kicks to me.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;969759I dunno. Labelling anybody as a "Distinction Denier" sounds a lot like tribalism and trolling for kicks to me.

Fair enough.  I've seen the behavior umpteen times from people on the site who've come and gone.  After having endless discussions disrupted and mired in the exact same way, I couldn't care less what it sounds like.  I've given the definition, you know what it means and how I use it.  Question the motives all you like, on this one I'm beyond caring.  The behavior pattern is what it is.

Quote from: Psikerlord;969752I'm not so sure I'd call a game withotu randomisers an RPG though (no dice or whatever). That might actually be what I would call a "story game- " because the random has been taken out.

Like Amber Diceless?
I guess I let Pundit explain that one to you...

Quote from: Dumarest;969697I haven't played Twilight 2000 in ages so I may just not recall, but I don't remember this at all. Contact Points? Was that in the first edition or added later?

2nd edition.