Quote from: droog;242651Here I am, in yer face.

Shucks, Bob, slavery sure is bad! Better not talk about it. How 'bout them Steelers?

I think it was fairly clear that the word 'you' was being used objectively and not personally.

Quote from: Jackalope;242619I've had fun playing several Forge games.  Don't Rest Your Head was an awesome game, an a fun break from normal gaming fare.  Several other Forge games could easily be fun.

But then there's a "game" like Steal Away Jordan. *Snip text*

This is swine game.  A game that exists only because the author is self-indulgent to the point where she doesn't care if the game is fun, because it will make people think!  Calling this a game is deceptive advertising.  It's a consciousness raising exercise.

All arguments aside, this does meet what I see as Pundy's traditional definition of a Swine game. Like Jackalope said, this game is being marketed not as a fun exercise, but as a means to play an RPG while feeling superior to all of those phillistines killing orcs and looting dungeons.

Quote from: droog;242630I hereby extend an invitation to play Steal Away Jordan to you, Kyle Aaron.

No thanks.

Now, if you were running some nice HeroQuest in a nice heroic sort of setting, or even a gritty one, nothing too thespy...

Quote from: Fritzs;242637Jackalope: "Game" does not have to be fun:

It doesn't have to be fun to be a game, but it does have to be fun for most of us to play it more than once.

And seriously, don't go quoting wikipedia if you want to look like you have your shit together.

JamesV: Why should I feel superior to them...? And what's wrong with me if I feel...? Well, I am just asking, cos I am not buing this "all the fun, all the time, let's sacrifice roleplaying, genre, style, seriousness on the bloody altars of most holy fun" thing.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;242658No thanks.

Gutless!

Absolutely! Only my characters are brave. It's a compensation thing. My characters are also all hung like a horse, even the women.

Quote from: Fritzs;242662JamesV: Why should I feel superior to them...? And what's wrong with me if I feel...? Well, I am just asking, cos I am not buing this "all the fun, all the time, let's sacrifice roleplaying, genre, style, seriousness on the bloody altars of most holy fun" thing.

IMO you really don't have to buy it. I'm just trying to explain the philosphy behind the ideas of "Swine", and at least in these instances, I can sympathize with it. If I want to learn more about a serious subject, I'll read about it, or even watch a well made documentary. As marketed, games like these put forth the pretty pretentious idea that through play you can really experience (in a way) the reality behind the subject matter. Not only do I not buy into that idea, but sometimes I think it's a little demeaning to the genuinely serious and, often sad and terrible, subjects they try to portray.

Another  recent example of this type of game that I'm really dubious about and also pretty well fits the Swine criteria is Grey Ranks.

Edit: Now I feel like I ought to say, that when it comes to games, I think of them as matters of taste, you can love them or hate them, but no one is some kind of fiend for that. But there are points at which I do think that some games do things that don't sit well with me, and this is one situation, mainly because of the subject matter.

Quote from: JamesV;242667As marketed, games like these put forth the pretty pretentious idea that through play you can really experience (in a way) the reality behind the subject matter. Not only do I not buy into that idea, but sometimes I think it's a little demeaning to the genuinely serious and, often sad and terrible, subjects they try to portray.

Get it straight. The game is marketed by its writer (who happens to be a black woman and one who actually does think about slavery) as a fictional presentation of its subject matter. She references fictional presentations such as Toni Morrison's.

You know, I had rather hoped that by this point most adult gamers would get over the idea that 'games I don't enjoy are objectively not fun.'

It's really sad to see it so prevalent here. For fuck's sake, can you guys really not get your head around some people finding games fun that you and the folks you hang with don't?

I don't enjoy watching golf. I don't get on some high moral ground and start coming up with terms about what horrible stupid fucks watch golf despite it objectively not being fun.

Jesus.

Quote from: droog;242673Get it straight. The game is marketed by its writer (who happens to be a black woman and one who actually does think about slavery) as a fictional presentation of its subject matter. She references fictional presentations such as Toni Morrison's.

The source doesn't matter to me as much as the vehicle. If a Lakota wrote a RPG about the atrocities of the westward expansion, which includes the very state I live in so you learn a thing or two about it, I would still think it a bad idea. I'm not much of a pundit of race/ethnic issues, but I do think that few things are worse than a bunch of white people who think that playing a RPG will let them "get it" in regards to the numerous bad things that have happened in the past out of ignorance and sheer racism. In short, I'll freely concede that the lady's intent may not be artistically pretentious, but I think that the majority of those who will buy it and play it will be quite the opposite about it. The game will be a title dropped by clueless, pretentious morons to show how enlightened and advanced their gaming is beyond a night of D&D, RIFTS, or just about any other RPG out there.

I prefer sending that message out through direct non-fictional presentation like books, lecture, film, and artifact.

Quote from: JamesV;242680The game will be a title dropped by clueless, pretentious morons to show how enlightened and advanced their gaming is beyond a night of D&D, RIFTS, or just about any other RPG out there.

Well, if you say so, it must be so, I suppose.

Quote from: Will;242675For fuck's sake, can you guys really not get your head around some people finding games fun that you and the folks you hang with don't?

No, doesn't happen much.

Quote from: droog;242683Well, if you say so, it must be so, I suppose.

Not must, just the most likely outcome in my opinion, especially when it comes to the internet. One I'd much rather be proven wrong about, but I don't think I have been yet.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;242658Now, if you were running some nice HeroQuest in a nice heroic sort of setting, or even a gritty one, nothing too thespy...

You already blew it by being narrow-minded, I'm afraid.