I know some may say that Pathfinder is that game, but Pathfinder is D&D. If your game is six ability scores, and armor class, you're just D&D. Even RPG Pundit's own Lion and Dragon, or Star Adventurer are still D&D derived rules.
I'm talking about a game that has rules different enough to be its own thing.
To me the Palladium series of RPGs was that game. It was my system growing up, and I still love it. My brother and I still have all our books, which is a stack that's a few feet tall. Rifts alone fills two milk crates.
But, maybe now it's Savage Worlds?
If we're talking about being able to overtake D&D in the modern marketplace or out compete it as a traditional fantasy rpg. I suppose Modiphius has something 2d20 flavoured that might fit the bill. Cubicle 7's The One Ring certainly has some popularity and production values.
Looking for the number one spot in the market without being fantasy specifically, Star Wars usually does well as long as FFG can iron out their production issues. Warhammer 40k is always there and maybe the Age of Sigmar rpg.
Historically I'd say Rolemaster in the eighties had a pretty strong license in Middle Earth and a much better system than Palladium. (okay that's naked trolling, I'll admit it) Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay certainly go a boost from the bland and acceptable to people who don't buy our products D&D 2e.
In the nineties White Wolf was hitting it pretty hard and Ars Magica or Vampire Dark Ages might have been a candidate. Of course, in the nineties, Magic The Gathering was the real and literal D&D killer.
In the naughties, I think there was a huge opportunity when fourth edition D&D crashed and burned. Pathfinder managed to capitalize on it by being the previous edition of D&D but I think something like GURPS Dungeon Fantasy might have done very well both when 4e came out and when WotC ditched it as even the scraps of D&D are huge for other companies.
Quote from: David Johansen on June 26, 2022, 10:30:44 PM
Star Wars usually does well as long as FFG can iron out their production issues.
FFG doesn't do RPGs anymore. Star Wars is now in the hands of Edge. They might evetually put something new out, but for now, they are just churning out reprints. To be fair, that's better than FFG could handle towards the end.
Maybe if World of Warcraft came out with a coffee table RPG book that didn't use D&D rules?
In Japan, it's already there (https://www.dicebreaker.com/games/call-of-cthulhu-rpg/news/call-of-cthulhu-dnd-japan-rpg).
QuoteIn Japan, [Call of Cthulhu] is immensely popular - so much so that whereas 'roleplaying game' is synonymous with Dungeons and Dragons in many other countries, in Japan roleplaying = Call of Cthulhu," Chaosium tweeted in July 2019.
5E D&D may be the 500lb gorilla, and always has been, but I'm probably the odd man out around here.
You see, I've never played D&D. I'm 46. I started gaming when I was 13. My gateway game was BattleTech, then we bought the Palladium RoboTech RPG because they shared artwork. The next step was to actually play RoboTech, which replaced BattleTech. Then I knew the game rules and branched out to the other Palladium games, mainly Rifts, Palladium Fantasy, and Heroes Unlimited. I own so many Palladium books it's crazy.
After a long hiatus, I'm back into RPGs again, but now I'm in love with something new. I crave rules lite games with tight and clever rules. Any little RPG that can do more with less is where it's at for me.
Pocket Fantasy, Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool Edition, Tiny D6 series, Mini-6 Bare Bones Edition, and Star Adventurer. I'll give a bit about each.
1. Pocket Fantasy. It's free, and it's as rules lite as you can go. One-page RPGs don't work. PF does work.
2. Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool Edition. It's like Savage Worlds, but fixed. Attributes and skills are dice, starting at D4 going up to D12. Roll your attribute, your skill, and any additional power dice, but then you pick the best two dice to add together. Fighters and other classes are just as kitted out with abilities as any other mage class. Just don't mix it up with Dungeons and Delvers Red, which is more like other OSR games that use the D20.
3. Tiny D6 is easy to play. It's also a very fleshed out series that has lot of genre specific games. Like Palladium, you learn one game, but can then play most genres. It even has my favorite. Mecha.
4. Mini-6 Bare Bones Edition. This was the game I thought was great, but now I know to temper my expectations. It needs house rules to fix some things, but thankfully I believe I've got that all figure out. I may make a thread just about that.
5. Star Adventurer. I want to play Star Wars. I tried D6, and mini-6, but as I said, they need work. Remember when I said I've never played D&D games? Star Adventurer might be my ticket. It doesn't use Vancian magic, which I detest, and it may not emphasize hit points as you level up. We shall see, but I like what I see. Maybe I found a D&D game worth playing?
I just want games that are popular and easy to learn. So, that's why I'm asking this question. What are the games or game systems that are so good they could rival the top dog?
I like Savage Worlds. I think they are actually pulling off things I never thought I would see (Savage Rifts, and now the team up with Pathfinder)but.... I think a lot of their momentum has come from kick starter and the funding that provides to launch things with minimal risk. Pathfinder might have been the "killer" for a few years while 4e was around, but 5e seems to have permanently killed PF as any real contestant. Now...should the PF + SW fusion really take off...no, still not going to come close to the shelf space, sales, and general participation of D&D 5e.
Now that said, it is looking as if Wizards is pushing towards a 6e....I do not know where the minds are on development or what that is going to look like, but these are the people who decided 4e was a good idea, so they can screw up. I think at this point the only killer for D&D is the next edition. 5e is a winner, big time for them. They could screw the pooch with 6e, but the only way they step off the top spot will be from a self inflicted wound.
Historically, the closest was Vampire: The Masquerade. It captured the zeitgeist of the 90s, and created an entirely new audience -- goths (including girls) not just geeks.
The closest thing to a D&D killer has always been the owner of the D&D IP. It's happened twice already (tail of 2E and the 3.5 through 4E cycle) with two different owners. If early indications are accurate, and the game matches what has happened to cable companies and the wicked mouse of the west, WotC may slowly drive off half their audience with 6E. My guess is that it will take almost the entire cycle of 6E to see the outcome.
Now, that doesn't really "kill" D&D. History shows that when the owner has their collective heads up their asses, that frees up about half the remaining market (not counting casual drop-ins for the D&D "experience" that will just as easily drop right back out). But that other half won't likely be one company. Instead, you are more likely to see several decent games grab closer to 5% than the sub 1% they have now. One or two of them might take off enough to go over 10%, and will seem like D&D killers just from the hype.
I might be underestimating WotC though. They might commit corporate suicide.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 27, 2022, 12:38:13 AM
I just want games that are popular and easy to learn. So, that's why I'm asking this question. What are the games or game systems that are so good they could rival the top dog?
Ah! Now there's a clear question!
Okay so games that are so good they could rival the top dog?
GURPS could, Dungeon Fantasy is too complex for the job but GURPS can be dialed way down from there.
The Fantasy Trip could but it's awfully similar to dialed down GURPS for some reason. ;)
Advance Heroquest could. GW's done some new Warhammer Quest games but they lack the scope.
The Arcane Confabulation could but the author's a dithering nitwit.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 27, 2022, 01:00:43 AM
I like Savage Worlds. I think they are actually pulling off things I never thought I would see (Savage Rifts, and now the team up with Pathfinder)but.... I think a lot of their momentum has come from kick starter and the funding that provides to launch things with minimal risk. Pathfinder might have been the "killer" for a few years while 4e was around, but 5e seems to have permanently killed PF as any real contestant. Now...should the PF + SW fusion really take off...no, still not going to come close to the shelf space, sales, and general participation of D&D 5e.
Now that said, it is looking as if Wizards is pushing towards a 6e....I do not know where the minds are on development or what that is going to look like, but these are the people who decided 4e was a good idea, so they can screw up. I think at this point the only killer for D&D is the next edition. 5e is a winner, big time for them. They could screw the pooch with 6e, but the only way they step off the top spot will be from a self inflicted wound.
Stipulated - there is no D&D-killer except WotC themselves. And 5e will not die, even after 6e drops. Too many people glommed onto 5e that will become the 5e Nerdzerkers that kick off the new Edition Wars that will find some hair to pick with 6e and so the cycle will continue.
This is the genius of Savage Worlds - it has no direct ties to DnD regardless of the edition in play. I predicted this years ago when I first got into Savage Worlds (I'm latercomer and got in during Deluxe edition), but 2-minutes into my first Deadlands game it struck me that mechanically this system would make for some high-octane DnD fantasy. While their original Fantasy Companion was mediocre - they certainly had settings that really took ownership of the fantasy genre. Beasts and Barbarians is *stellar* (so is Hellfrost). But the issue was neither of these settings were "traditional DnD fantasy". And as such Savage Worlds was going to be hard sell to DnD players (new system? new setting? pass!).
But when Savage Rifts happened that was a shocker. It showcased what the Savage Worlds system could really do without effectively changing itself - it brought established systems (and their fanbases) to Savage Worlds. Then of course Savage Pathfinder... I can tell it's been a sea-change for Savage Worlds. MOST of the Discord and forums are flooded with DnD players new to Savage Worlds because finally they had a good excuse to check out Savage Worlds with a setting they were familiar with.
And we all know the truth - if you can run Pathfinder... you're effectively squarely running DnD. I just wrapped up my first year-long Savage Forgotten Realms game, and it was a highly modified 5e AP (Storm King's Thunder - mixed with End Times from WHFRP heh), and it ran beautifully.
Will it kill DnD? Absolutely not. But what it will do is continue to grow. The reception has been rock-solid and positive. At this rate the entire catalog of 1e Pathfinder is on the table, and Rifts books galore are all there for the printing. This will fund the continued growth of the system and new settings (as well as 3rd party products) that will solidify Savage Worlds and see them become a larger player in the TTRPG world.
6e will only help them. But kill DnD? Nah.
DnD will always be the monster, as said. I couldn't stand it after 3e/3.5e, which turned me off so badly that I can't possibly look at DnD again without nausea. There's a reason why people LOVE DnD, but I can't stand the new stuff to the point it hurts to look at it. It's like an intense feeling of betrayal, it's so visceral. I can't fucking stand it, but that's on me. DnD is, and always will be, the ultimate gateway drug into the universe of tabletop RPGs.
Popular and Easy to Learn...
FREE LEAGUE has been hitting it out of the park with their Year Zero engine, IMO, adapting it to old school (Twilight 2000 4e) and newer games alike. Is it overly complex? No, although Twilight 2k is very crunchy due to its old school/wargame lineage.
IMO, the ALIEN RPG is maybe one of the finest adaptations of a license, and even with the Cepheus/Hostile (Traveler 2d6 system) being great at the same head space, ALIEN is such a tight experience that it's a shame not to recommend that one. It's not going to be uber popular compared to the likes of DnD, but everyone knows FREE LEAGUE is quality stuff and will have at least heard of what's going on. Their boxed starter sets are borderline perfection when it comes to starters, and the books are beautiful. They're just amongst the best in the business right now in terms of quality - both in terms of production and game content.
ALIEN is just plain tight. Twilight 2000 has a lot of shit to track, while ALIEN is so much more refined. I can't wait for the Space Truckers book & the Colonists book to flesh out those modes of play (like the Colonial Marines Ops manual), and the next cinematic scenario should be very good at a minimum. (I find both Chariot of the Gods & Destroyer of Worlds to be quite good, though not perfect.)
(FREE LEAGUE's The One Ring, which is an adaptation/update of the 1e TOR rules, is also one of the finest licensed products you will ever read. It's the perfect distillation of the Tolkien experience this side of the Burning Wheel, which is indecipherable to many people... so you'd have to look at The One Ring for a Tolkien-style game that you can pick up and play, but it's a much more niche audience than DnD.)
Modiphius & 2d20 is also up there, but I find their books to be a little difficult to read. Star Trek was really difficult, anyway, and that should have been a home run due to the license. The DUNE RPG is incredibly easier to read, but the lack of practical examples of the structure of play really hurts this one... and boils it all down to the usual/traditional, "Go to Arrakis, do dumb stuff, kill things & take their stuff" DUNE campaign. I think they have a winning system, but it's hampered by their inability to get out of their own way with it. Too much woke, too many conflicting ideas, not enough clarity in what I've seen.
Apocalypse engine/PbtA is pretty popular as well, although it is a minefield of wokeness. Games like "Masks" and "Dungeon World" are really high up there. The KULT 4e reboot is not as woke by far... it's horror/strangeness, almost like a TOOL album in game format, I think. The system is not very hard, but KULT is a harder interpretation of PbtA to hang onto unless you are disciplined about what goes onto the character sheets (so you don't have to flip through the book). You really need to master the flow of it and have a high trust environment with the players to deliver the "TOOL album in game format", however. PbtA games are a high wire act at the best of times, and at the worst of times? Can be aimless and insipid.
Quote from: Pat on June 27, 2022, 02:09:36 AM
Historically, the closest was Vampire: The Masquerade. It captured the zeitgeist of the 90s, and created an entirely new audience -- goths (including girls) not just geeks.
Yeah, this. You beat me to it. Probably a lesson to be learned here. If you want a shot at surpassing D&D, choose a genre and market that's newly popular and not well served by current RPGs and hit that. Maybe an Avatar/Pandora game launched when the next movie comes out...
Short answer is...
There is no such thing.
One persons "Better than D&D!!!!!" is someone elses "Worse than Dirt!"
For some gurps is that game. For others its Tunnels & Trolls, for others its Cyberpunk2020, Or Shadowrun, or Iron Claw, or freaking Fatal. And sor the next player any or all are dirt.
Also which D&D? Because for example I prefer BX and AD&D over 2e, and was blase about 3e and just baffled by 4e. 5e I like but its got issues.
Same for me with Gamma World. I prefer 2e, was unimpressed with 3 &4e, Alternity GW was baffling and 4eD&D GW is mess. But at least does 4e as an actual RPG more than a board game.
Quote from: tenbones link=topic=44930.msg1quote author=oggsmash link=topic=44930.msg1220325#msg1220325 date=1656306043]
...
Stipulated - there is no D&D-killer except WotC themselves. And 5e will not die, even after 6e drops. Too many people glommed onto 5e that will become the 5e Nerdzerkers that kick off the new Edition Wars that will find some hair to pick with 6e and so the cycle will continue.
...
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on June 27, 2022, 08:09:31 AM
The closest thing to a D&D killer has always been the owner of the D&D IP. It's happened twice already (tail of 2E and the 3.5 through 4E cycle) with two different owners. If early indications are accurate, and the game matches what has happened to cable companies and the wicked mouse of the west, WotC may slowly drive off half their audience with 6E. My guess is that it will take almost the entire cycle of 6E to see the outcome.
...
^These^
WotC has to kill D&D. The network advantage D&D has is too massive now for a game to overtake it without some serious own-goals.
Being an objectively better game doesn't matter at this point. You need to stay profitable enough, long enough, and WotC acting incompetent enough, long enough, for your games network effect to build to the point that it would be worth the miniscule effort it would take for a D&D player to look at your game system.
Nothing short of WotC pulling a Marvel/DC Comics style self-immolation will do for any other game to have a prayer.
Brand loyalty in RPG land is just that strong.
Quote from: Pat on June 27, 2022, 02:09:36 AM
Historically, the closest was Vampire: The Masquerade. It captured the zeitgeist of the 90s, and created an entirely new audience -- goths (including girls) not just geeks.
It's hard to fault this at first glance. But in 20/20 hindsight, it was doomed to fall short because
in my opinion WW didn't really understand their market. i.e. Lots of different RPG player besides emo goth kids bought and played Vampire/WoD...
WW nuked themselves with their own metaplot nonsense (along with other issues). And failed to leverage a sufficient amount of their player base to continue building on their initial player network effect on with new editions.
They failed to understand the underlying reasons why Vampire/WoD was so successful, and have been confused ever since why they cannot even come close to that success in subsequent editions.
They rejected the trenchcoat and katana casual players to their complete detriment....
That being said for any game to truly "beat" D&D; it would have to be a medieval fantasy game.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 26, 2022, 08:47:02 PM
I know some may say that Pathfinder is that game, but Pathfinder is D&D. If your game is six ability scores, and armor class, you're just D&D. Even RPG Pundit's own Lion and Dragon, or Star Adventurer are still D&D derived rules.
...
Any game that takes on D&D will have to be sufficiently close to D&D's core mode of play that system differences will largely be a matter of six of one, a half dozen of the other. The differences will have to be mostly thematic.
The key is building upon D&D's traditional mode of play, and consistently delivering a quality adventure game to players looking for an acceptable alternative while WotC is in the middle of screwing the pooch with their current edition of D&D.
It is worth noting though that until WotC literally created their own competition with Pathfinder - no other game company made anything resembling a serious attempt to compete with D&D in the fantasy RPG market.
Until the rise of the clone, every other fantasy RPG was outright deficient in system, setting, or support; oftentimes all three. Never putting themselves in a position to gather up a sufficient amount of D&D castoff's to build up a meaningful network effect if TSR/Wotc ever screwed the pooch...
D&D is not only big due to its first mover status (which is #1 huge), but it was also helped along by having no real competition of any kind since its inception. (until the whole 4e fiasco)...
D&D is a brand, a d20+mod family of systems, and a setting. Nothing external can kill it because it would not be "D&D" without saying "D&D" on the tin, even if an objectively better system existed it would be too far a departure, and a setting is either not the same or close enough that there is no reason to bother with the off brand.
Even if the next edition is deliberate brand suicide, the brand will live on as editon-1, or edition -X.
If with "D&D killer" one means "a game that will help you to grow out of D&D" then I agree on CoC.
My current group is now in our high 40s-low 50s. We played D&D (and a bit of Pathfinder) to death, then, for a while, we switched to boardgames. After playing "Mythos" ("Sherlock Holmes' Consulting Detective" but in Arkham) I proposed a run at CoC 7E (best edition ever IMHO, even if it is in need of a 7.5E due to some strong ambiguities in key rules). The adventures we played were among the best in our multi-decades RPG's experience. Now I plan to try Delta Green.
D&D 3.5E gave us a lot of fun but now, honestly, I would feel silly to switch back to high fantasy. In my case it is a thing that came with age, not due to how a certain system works vs. another.
Call of Cthulhu is for some better than D&D. But again. Thats just preference.
I like both equally actually because they both fill different needs. For me Star Frontiers is my Traveller Killer... 8) Though Universe gives both a good run for their money in several areas.
So as usual. No such thing as a 'killer game' because nothing can ever be that for everyone.
Though 5e was pretty much that for 4e D&D... Though some violently disagree. But then they werent playing much of an RPG anyhow so their opinions do not really count? :-X
Quote from: Jaeger on June 27, 2022, 06:49:37 PM
Quote from: tenbones link=topic=44930.msg1quote author=oggsmash link=topic=44930.msg1220325#msg1220325 date=1656306043]
...
Stipulated - there is no D&D-killer except WotC themselves. And 5e will not die, even after 6e drops. Too many people glommed onto 5e that will become the 5e Nerdzerkers that kick off the new Edition Wars that will find some hair to pick with 6e and so the cycle will continue.
...
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on June 27, 2022, 08:09:31 AM
The closest thing to a D&D killer has always been the owner of the D&D IP. It's happened twice already (tail of 2E and the 3.5 through 4E cycle) with two different owners. If early indications are accurate, and the game matches what has happened to cable companies and the wicked mouse of the west, WotC may slowly drive off half their audience with 6E. My guess is that it will take almost the entire cycle of 6E to see the outcome.
...
^These^
WotC has to kill D&D. The network advantage D&D has is too massive now for a game to overtake it without some serious own-goals.
Being an objectively better game doesn't matter at this point. You need to stay profitable enough, long enough, and WotC acting incompetent enough, long enough, for your games network effect to build to the point that it would be worth the miniscule effort it would take for a D&D player to look at your game system.
Nothing short of WotC pulling a Marvel/DC Comics style self-immolation will do for any other game to have a prayer.
Brand loyalty in RPG land is just that strong.
Yeah, the brand loyalty thing is why RPGs aside from D&D are just not a growth sector. Once gamers get hooked on a particular game, they never want to try anything else. Only a minority of people seem to break out of this.
That's why I've decided to scrap my plans of writing ttrpgs in favor of going into fiction and video games. It may sacrifice the imagination potential that only ttrpgs have, but it means people will actually consume my products. Those are actual growth sectors.
Quote from: Jaeger on June 27, 2022, 06:49:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on June 27, 2022, 02:09:36 AM
Historically, the closest was Vampire: The Masquerade. It captured the zeitgeist of the 90s, and created an entirely new audience -- goths (including girls) not just geeks.
It's hard to fault this at first glance. But in 20/20 hindsight, it was doomed to fall short because in my opinion WW didn't really understand their market. i.e. Lots of different RPG player besides emo goth kids bought and played Vampire/WoD...
WW nuked themselves with their own metaplot nonsense (along with other issues). And failed to leverage a sufficient amount of their player base to continue building on their initial player network effect on with new editions.
They failed to understand the underlying reasons why Vampire/WoD was so successful, and have been confused ever since why they cannot even come close to that success in subsequent editions.
They rejected the trenchcoat and katana casual players to their complete detriment....
That being said for any game to truly "beat" D&D; it would have to be a medieval fantasy game.
Yeah, the metaplot et al was a huge problem and yet you still have people praising it and being upset about it. Unlike D&D or Call of Cthulhu, WoD shot itself in the foot by limiting itself to a single campaign setting and encouraging its players to be hugely insular even by ttrpg fandom standards. Do you want to play a vampire game without generational limits or 13 clans with ridiculous concepts that seem pulled out of a hat? Well fuck you, the fans who haven't jumped ship already are going to mock and shun you for not worshiping the lore. jfc, this is a game!
Meanwhile, D&D has a bazillion official and unofficial campaign settings, uncountable numbers of adventures, and uncountable optional rules that can completely rewrite how the game flows. Indie companies have created profitable niches by catering to specific unmet needs like non-vancian magic systems.
CoC has a bunch of gods and monsters, but it doesn't really have a coherent canon like a tv show or movie franchise does. Since investigators are generally expected to suffer horrific fates including insanity, mutation, and death, there's no need to have things like politics between the shaggai and the migo that influence the course of history that every subsequent book must take into account.
I've considered making my own urban fantasy ttrpg to capitalize on the decline of WoD, but as I said I don't think my chances are good. Also, I'm pretty sure UndeadMonk is gonna beat me to market and I'm curious to see whether he has innovations that might save me time. Tbh I'd prefer to see revivals of
Nightlife,
Nephilim,
Everlasting,
WitchCraft et al rather than a new game that rehashes the same basic ideas but has to walk around that pesky issue of copyright. The indie game
Feed has a more or less perfect implementation of vampires that has gone under the radar because the author decided not to follow the supplement treadmill that is mandatory to keep rpg communities alive, even though it was released under Creative Commons (basically OGL before it was a thing). Those games may be dead, but the best I can ever do is clone them.
Quote from: bromides on June 27, 2022, 02:00:25 PM
IMO, the ALIEN RPG is maybe one of the finest adaptations of a license, and even with the Cepheus/Hostile (Traveler 2d6 system) being great at the same head space, ALIEN is such a tight experience that it's a shame not to recommend that one. It's not going to be uber popular compared to the likes of DnD, but everyone knows FREE LEAGUE is quality stuff and will have at least heard of what's going on. Their boxed starter sets are borderline perfection when it comes to starters, and the books are beautiful. They're just amongst the best in the business right now in terms of quality - both in terms of production and game content.
ALIEN is just plain tight. Twilight 2000 has a lot of shit to track, while ALIEN is so much more refined. I can't wait for the Space Truckers book & the Colonists book to flesh out those modes of play (like the Colonial Marines Ops manual), and the next cinematic scenario should be very good at a minimum. (I find both Chariot of the Gods & Destroyer of Worlds to be quite good, though not perfect.)
I'm so glad to see more love for the ALIEN rpg. Each volume has been a wonderful read, and they really made the universe more. I think it still needs the next source book (Building Better Worlds) to have enough material to really build an ongoing campaign. The cinematic scenarios have been great, and a breath of fresh air from just shooting loads of xenomorphs.
The correct answer is "The Fantasy Trip". It's superior to D&D in just about every way. The problem with any game unseating D&D is that it won't. D&D's such a commercial behemoth. It's like taking on Band-Aid.
Quote from: World_Warrior on July 01, 2022, 05:12:03 PM
Quote from: bromides on June 27, 2022, 02:00:25 PM
IMO, the ALIEN RPG is maybe one of the finest adaptations of a license, and even with the Cepheus/Hostile (Traveler 2d6 system) being great at the same head space, ALIEN is such a tight experience that it's a shame not to recommend that one. It's not going to be uber popular compared to the likes of DnD, but everyone knows FREE LEAGUE is quality stuff and will have at least heard of what's going on. Their boxed starter sets are borderline perfection when it comes to starters, and the books are beautiful. They're just amongst the best in the business right now in terms of quality - both in terms of production and game content.
ALIEN is just plain tight. Twilight 2000 has a lot of shit to track, while ALIEN is so much more refined. I can't wait for the Space Truckers book & the Colonists book to flesh out those modes of play (like the Colonial Marines Ops manual), and the next cinematic scenario should be very good at a minimum. (I find both Chariot of the Gods & Destroyer of Worlds to be quite good, though not perfect.)
I'm so glad to see more love for the ALIEN rpg. Each volume has been a wonderful read, and they really made the universe more. I think it still needs the next source book (Building Better Worlds) to have enough material to really build an ongoing campaign. The cinematic scenarios have been great, and a breath of fresh air from just shooting loads of xenomorphs.
As interesting as that might sound, I can't stand the IP because of how Fox (now Disney) mismanaged it and shat on the lore.
The engineers being ancient astronauts is just so fucking stupid and pisses on Giger's grave.
I hope Disney fucks the IP even further into oblivion because I hate it now.
What tissue is closest to being a "Kleenex killer"?
Pathfinder came the closest with a combination of market savvy and wizards practically destroying the brand with 4e. But since we are excluding Pathfinder from this hypothetical, there were some systems that got traction like White Wolf with Exalted, Games Workshop with Warhammer RPG, GURPS had its day, and of course Palladium. But all of these were a distant second even at their peak.
No one will do it with Fantasy, and I don't know if there is another genre that will ever be as popular as that one.
Quote from: Reckall on June 30, 2022, 07:17:07 AM
If with "D&D killer" one means "a game that will help you to grow out of D&D" then I agree on CoC.
My current group is now in our high 40s-low 50s. We played D&D (and a bit of Pathfinder) to death, then, for a while, we switched to boardgames. After playing "Mythos" ("Sherlock Holmes' Consulting Detective" but in Arkham) I proposed a run at CoC 7E (best edition ever IMHO, even if it is in need of a 7.5E due to some strong ambiguities in key rules). The adventures we played were among the best in our multi-decades RPG's experience. Now I plan to try Delta Green.
D&D 3.5E gave us a lot of fun but now, honestly, I would feel silly to switch back to high fantasy. In my case it is a thing that came with age, not due to how a certain system works vs. another.
IIRC, and FWIW, CoC is bigger than DnD in Japan.
Quote from: dkabq on July 02, 2022, 01:31:57 PM
Quote from: Reckall on June 30, 2022, 07:17:07 AM
If with "D&D killer" one means "a game that will help you to grow out of D&D" then I agree on CoC.
My current group is now in our high 40s-low 50s. We played D&D (and a bit of Pathfinder) to death, then, for a while, we switched to boardgames. After playing "Mythos" ("Sherlock Holmes' Consulting Detective" but in Arkham) I proposed a run at CoC 7E (best edition ever IMHO, even if it is in need of a 7.5E due to some strong ambiguities in key rules). The adventures we played were among the best in our multi-decades RPG's experience. Now I plan to try Delta Green.
D&D 3.5E gave us a lot of fun but now, honestly, I would feel silly to switch back to high fantasy. In my case it is a thing that came with age, not due to how a certain system works vs. another.
IIRC, and FWIW, CoC is bigger than DnD in Japan.
Yup.
Coincidentally, Japan is also producing the most comics and cartoons with blatant D&D influences
Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 26, 2022, 08:47:02 PM
I know some may say that Pathfinder is that game, but Pathfinder is D&D. If your game is six ability scores, and armor class, you're just D&D. Even RPG Pundit's own Lion and Dragon, or Star Adventurer are still D&D derived rules.
I'm talking about a game that has rules different enough to be its own thing.
To me the Palladium series of RPGs was that game. It was my system growing up, and I still love it. My brother and I still have all our books, which is a stack that's a few feet tall. Rifts alone fills two milk crates.
But, maybe now it's Savage Worlds?
Nobody cares enough about Savage Worlds.
The only thing that can kill D&D, is it's parent company. That said, Pathfinder took advantage of the situation when WotC fucked up with 4E and then threw their advantage away by kowtowing to the woke and destroying their own game system setting.
However, long ago, in the final days of TSR, WEG and their incredible d6 Star Wars system was about to usurp D&D from its throne for good when a fucking ex-football player had his imported Italian loafers used against him as evidence in a murder trial. Thus fate intervened and we are where we are now.
CoC in the 1980s, V:TM in the 1990s. Discounting Pathfinder, there has been no challenge to D&D since 2000. If people get sick of D&D, they go play Skyrim and bitch about Elder Scrolls VI never coming out. ;D D&D is simply not competing with other RPGs.
Quote from: S'mon on July 03, 2022, 06:36:00 AM
CoC in the 1980s, V:TM in the 1990s. Discounting Pathfinder, there has been no challenge to D&D since 2000. If people get sick of D&D, they go play Skyrim and bitch about Elder Scrolls VI never coming out. ;D D&D is simply not competing with other RPGs.
Agreed. As mentioned several times and as I said earlier, the biggest threat to D&D is WOTC, not any other company producing RPGs.
I think I'd argue that Games Workshop was in a really good position to kill D&D for about 20 years and never did. The reason was that they didn't see rpgs as profitable enough and ditched that part of their business. Even Dark Heresy didn't do well enough to keep in house from GW's perspective. But in terms of a longstanding gaming company with popular IP, they really could have taken the top spot if they wanted to.
The obstacles I see are that WFRP is a bit too fiddly, the typical edition and supplement churn issues of the rpg industry, and the material is not very family friendly. Not that its full of awfulness but it's visuals will scare Karen. Something more like Advanced Heroquest (not Warhammer Quest) that plugged more directly into the wargame and was simpler in play would probably have been a better fit. Put in modular character sprues, use single sprues from army sets for monsters to make a killer starter box. Probably do 40K instead of fantasy. Alternately they could just pick up the Lord of the Rings rpg license.
In any case, if they were really smart, they'd make the book under $20 and have booster packs around $10. So the core line is a fully playable book. A series of booster packs and adventures with maybe one sprue of monsters and a map or a character figure and some cards with powers and equipment on them. There's a price point issue but one of the major advantages of Magic the Gathering is cheap starters and boosters. It might work to make the boosters random. They'd have to be boxes to prevent parcel pinching then but you could avoid the issue with assortments where there's a popular item and an item you get stuck with in every box. One thing to bear in mind is that GW's packaging costs them more than the contents so foil baggies or something might be the way to go.
QuoteHowever, long ago, in the final days of TSR, WEG and their incredible d6 Star Wars system was about to usurp D&D from its throne for good when a fucking ex-football player had his imported Italian loafers used against him as evidence in a murder trial. Thus fate intervened and we are where we are now.
Who was this guy and how on earth it influenced SWd6?
Wizards of the Coast is the D&D killer.
Quote from: Wrath of God on July 13, 2022, 06:38:56 PM
QuoteHowever, long ago, in the final days of TSR, WEG and their incredible d6 Star Wars system was about to usurp D&D from its throne for good when a fucking ex-football player had his imported Italian loafers used against him as evidence in a murder trial. Thus fate intervened and we are where we are now.
Who was this guy and how on earth it influenced SWd6?
This is one of my favorite RPG stories......
When WEG still had its original owners and had the license for Star Wars, it was a sub-division of the Bucci Retail Group. Now Bucci hadn't been doing so well and had started some creative accounting with WEG to stay afloat. Then OJ Simpson went to trial and a piece of evidence used were a pair of imported Italian loafers, imported by Bucci. With that, the bottom fell out of the market for Bucci imports because nobody wanted shoes associated with a murder trial that was all over the news. Bucci filed for bankruptcy, and since they were the parent company for WEG - WEG got liquidated as well. All this happened around 1998.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 14, 2022, 09:44:00 AM
This is one of my favorite RPG stories......
When WEG still had its original owners and had the license for Star Wars, it was a sub-division of the Bucci Retail Group. Now Bucci hadn't been doing so well and had started some creative accounting with WEG to stay afloat. Then OJ Simpson went to trial and a piece of evidence used were a pair of imported Italian loafers, imported by Bucci. With that, the bottom fell out of the market for Bucci imports because nobody wanted shoes associated with a murder trial that was all over the news. Bucci filed for bankruptcy, and since they were the parent company for WEG - WEG got liquidated as well. All this happened around 1998.
I knew there was a shoe connection to the Fall of WEG, but I wasn't aware of the details. Thanks for the information!
Speculation: If WEG had hung on just a little longer, they could probably have leveraged the Episode One hype to keep d6 SW a success in the market. With that, and their affinity for licensing, could they possibly have snagged the LotR film license and emerged as a major competitor in the RPG space to WotC?
Much as I loved WEG and the D6 system, I don't think it was ever going to be a "D&D Killer."
WEG D6 simply didn't do fantasy all that well. There was a D6 Fantasy book, I own it, it was basically not playable. The magic system had been cut-and-pasted in from, I think, Masterbook, and it was a total non-starter. Did not fit the style and feel of D6, and really just didn't work. The combat system didn't do armored knight combat all that well, and didn't do lightly armored or unarmored characters at all. We tried, but it failed.
I think the best case for WEG would have been to become a "default system" for sci fi and/or modern adventure like D&D is for fantasy.
Quote from: Lurkndog on July 14, 2022, 12:27:15 PM
Much as I loved WEG and the D6 system, I don't think it was ever going to be a "D&D Killer."
WEG D6 simply didn't do fantasy all that well. There was a D6 Fantasy book, I own it, it was basically not playable. The magic system had been cut-and-pasted in from, I think, Masterbook, and it was a total non-starter. Did not fit the style and feel of D6, and really just didn't work. The combat system didn't do armored knight combat all that well, and didn't do lightly armored or unarmored characters at all. We tried, but it failed.
I think the best case for WEG would have been to become a "default system" for sci fi and/or modern adventure like D&D is for fantasy.
I almost agree with you here, but I think we are talking past each other.
I don't think that WEG d6 does fantasy very well either, but I think that WEG Star Wars was a D&D killer based upon franchise strength. Star Wars has a much larger franchise and fan base than D&D even back in 1998, if not ever. WotC saw this and tried to co-opt it with d20 Star Wars, but didn't quite make it because WEG d6 was the superior game system for emulating the kind of cinematic science fantasy that Star Wars is.
Quote from: thornad on July 02, 2022, 12:40:02 PM
What tissue is closest to being a "Kleenex killer"?
Exactly. Band aids, Cokes, Kleenex. Some brands become synonymous with the product. D&D is synonymous with table top RPGs. Now, can Pepsi outsell Coke some times or in some regions? Sure! But it'll never kill Coke anymore than the RPG flavor of the week will kill D&D.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 14, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
I almost agree with you here, but I think we are talking past each other.
I don't think that WEG d6 does fantasy very well either, but I think that WEG Star Wars was a D&D killer based upon franchise strength. Star Wars has a much larger franchise and fan base than D&D even back in 1998, if not ever. WotC saw this and tried to co-opt it with d20 Star Wars, but didn't quite make it because WEG d6 was the superior game system for emulating the kind of cinematic science fantasy that Star Wars is.
The problem with this argument is that WEG D6's heyday came during a historic ebb in the Star Wars franchise. In 1987, when the game debuted, the original trilogy had ended, and the franchise was mostly dormant. Even the Star Wars merch machine was just coasting along, with the action figure line having ended in 1985. The novels consisted of the movie novelizations, Splinter of the Mind's eye, and Brian Daley's Han Solo trilogy. Even the comic books had ceased publication.
That lull in the franchise is probably what allowed WEG to be able to afford the license in the first place.
I remember seeing a flyer for the game plastered on someone's dorm room door, and I thought "well, that's kind of neat that they're trying to bring it back." Because at that point, Star Wars was something that was firmly in the past.
Quote from: Lurkndog on July 15, 2022, 01:04:45 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 14, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
I almost agree with you here, but I think we are talking past each other.
I don't think that WEG d6 does fantasy very well either, but I think that WEG Star Wars was a D&D killer based upon franchise strength. Star Wars has a much larger franchise and fan base than D&D even back in 1998, if not ever. WotC saw this and tried to co-opt it with d20 Star Wars, but didn't quite make it because WEG d6 was the superior game system for emulating the kind of cinematic science fantasy that Star Wars is.
The problem with this argument is that WEG D6's heyday came during a historic ebb in the Star Wars franchise. In 1987, when the game debuted, the original trilogy had ended, and the franchise was mostly dormant. Even the Star Wars merch machine was just coasting along, with the action figure line having ended in 1985. The novels consisted of the movie novelizations, Splinter of the Mind's eye, and Brian Daley's Han Solo trilogy. Even the comic books had ceased publication.
That lull in the franchise is probably what allowed WEG to be able to afford the license in the first place.
I remember seeing a flyer for the game plastered on someone's dorm room door, and I thought "well, that's kind of neat that they're trying to bring it back." Because at that point, Star Wars was something that was firmly in the past.
I agree. The WEG game though, was the single biggest influence on the Star Wars franchise when it came back to prominence. Between 1985 and 1998, WEG Star Wars was the primary creative force filling in the gaps of the setting for the Star Wars franchise. When authors wanted background material for their books, they were given copies of the Star Wars RPG by WEG - including Timothy Zahn.
Could WEG Star Wars kick TSR D&D in the nuts in 1987? Fuck no. By 1998 though, it had a fighting chance to do so thanks to the popularity of the Star Wars franchise (which it was partially responsible for bringing about) and because of the mismanagement of TSR by that time weakening their hold on the market.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 14, 2022, 09:44:00 AM
Quote from: Wrath of God on July 13, 2022, 06:38:56 PM
QuoteHowever, long ago, in the final days of TSR, WEG and their incredible d6 Star Wars system was about to usurp D&D from its throne for good when a fucking ex-football player had his imported Italian loafers used against him as evidence in a murder trial. Thus fate intervened and we are where we are now.
Who was this guy and how on earth it influenced SWd6?
This is one of my favorite RPG stories......
When WEG still had its original owners and had the license for Star Wars, it was a sub-division of the Bucci Retail Group. Now Bucci hadn't been doing so well and had started some creative accounting with WEG to stay afloat. Then OJ Simpson went to trial and a piece of evidence used were a pair of imported Italian loafers, imported by Bucci. With that, the bottom fell out of the market for Bucci imports because nobody wanted shoes associated with a murder trial that was all over the news. Bucci filed for bankruptcy, and since they were the parent company for WEG - WEG got liquidated as well. All this happened around 1998.
I wonder if, were thatt to have happened in 2022, the murder couldn't have been spun to increase the appeal of the shoes.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 14, 2022, 12:10:13 PM
Speculation: If WEG had hung on just a little longer, they could probably have leveraged the Episode One hype to keep d6 SW a success in the market.
They could have done an Episode One sourcebook and coast from there. But sometimes things turn out that way, like when I.C.E. lost the rights to Lord of the Rings
exactly as Peter Jackson's trilogy was coming out.
Interestingly, the last thing Fantasy Flight Games did before ditching their Star Wars RPG was to republish the d6 version slipcased with the first sourcebook in a very good edition (if you are creative you find all you need in these two books). I bought it immediately and it sold out very quickly. I always wondered if someone at FFG just wanted to spit on someone else's face.
Quote from: Reckall on July 15, 2022, 05:46:56 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 14, 2022, 12:10:13 PM
Speculation: If WEG had hung on just a little longer, they could probably have leveraged the Episode One hype to keep d6 SW a success in the market.
They could have done an Episode One sourcebook and coast from there. But sometimes things turn out that way, like when I.C.E. lost the rights to Lord of the Rings exactly as Peter Jackson's trilogy was coming out.
Interestingly, the last thing Fantasy Flight Games did before ditching their Star Wars RPG was to republish the d6 version slipcased with the first sourcebook in a very good edition (if you are creative you find all you need in these two books). I bought it immediately and it sold out very quickly. I always wondered if someone at FFG just wanted to spit on someone else's face.
ICE losing that license to Middle Earth (partially due to impending bankruptcy IIRC) was super depressing for us at the time because we had a thriving MERP campaign going and were stoked for the upcoming films. Who knows what might have happened with that line if it had continued?
The Decipher Middle Earth game was too connected to the movies so the feel was a bit off, at least for me. And I didn't care for Cubicle Seven's take, nor do I like the Free League 2nd edition of The One Ring. Both games look good and they have a decent sense of the feel of Middle Earth. But they try to replicate the books too much and new version of TOR in particular feels like a board game masquerading as an RPG to me. 75% of the mechanics are basically unnecessary and could be replaced by actual roleplaying, but they opt for roll playing everything, even how the characters "feel" on a journey. I want to game in Middle Earth, not simply relive the books. Luckily, there is Against the Darkmaster so we're going try using that for Middle Earth gaming.
Savage Worlds checks off all of the necessary boxes. Pinnacle put a few more black and brown people in their books, but as far as I can tell they don't pop off on social media. They offer medieval fantasy without the pronoun garbage, and also without having to suffer through klunky, kludgy d20 mechanics from the 1980s. The system is easy for a new player to learn, which allows it to compete head-to-head against 5E, but it's customizable enough to keep veterans interested, which is one of the big flaws of 5E. As an added bonus, you can easily play a lot of other genres besides medieval fantasy. It's easy to modify and make your own stuff. With the release of Savage Pathfinder, they're in a similar position that Pathfinder itself was in back in 2010. Pathfinder is a pretty big name in TTRPG circles, which just got Savage Worlds a lot of attention. A lot of people checked the game out and liked what they saw.
If the King is going to lose his crown, it will be to Savage Worlds. But that probably isn't what will happen.
WotC using Satine Phoenix as their face of diversity for several years probably had a similar pull with women that White Wolf's urban fantasy vampire/werewolf romance had in the 90s. A former sex worker with kool-aid hair is just so bold and unapologetically feminist that a subset of Millennial and Gen Z women simply can't resist. It was so stunning and brave. Realistically, that's going to keep D&D afloat while the ax falls on the woke social justice movement. WotC will run out of rainbow paint in a few years and course correct. D&D isn't going anywhere.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 15, 2022, 03:01:17 PM
I agree. The WEG game though, was the single biggest influence on the Star Wars franchise when it came back to prominence. Between 1985 and 1998, WEG Star Wars was the primary creative force filling in the gaps of the setting for the Star Wars franchise. When authors wanted background material for their books, they were given copies of the Star Wars RPG by WEG - including Timothy Zahn.
Could WEG Star Wars kick TSR D&D in the nuts in 1987? Fuck no. By 1998 though, it had a fighting chance to do so thanks to the popularity of the Star Wars franchise (which it was partially responsible for bringing about) and because of the mismanagement of TSR by that time weakening their hold on the market.
Hindsight is 20/20. West End Games Star Wars never had a real chance of dethroning D&D. No Star Wars game ever did, because nobody can hold onto the rights to publish a Star Wars TTRPG long enough. The licensing rights get too expensive and the game inevitably folds. Of all the possible games that might take down D&D, Star Wars is on the list, but it would have to be an official House of Mouse product today. Back in the 90s, that meant it would have had to be a LucasArts product, and they were just too busy doing computer games. I'm pretty sure if you pulled Gen X Star Wars fans and ask them what kept the dream alive, you'll get a lot more people saying it was X-Wing vs TIE Fighter rather than WEG d6 Star Wars.
Quote from: Corolinth on July 16, 2022, 12:12:04 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 15, 2022, 03:01:17 PM
I agree. The WEG game though, was the single biggest influence on the Star Wars franchise when it came back to prominence. Between 1985 and 1998, WEG Star Wars was the primary creative force filling in the gaps of the setting for the Star Wars franchise. When authors wanted background material for their books, they were given copies of the Star Wars RPG by WEG - including Timothy Zahn.
Could WEG Star Wars kick TSR D&D in the nuts in 1987? Fuck no. By 1998 though, it had a fighting chance to do so thanks to the popularity of the Star Wars franchise (which it was partially responsible for bringing about) and because of the mismanagement of TSR by that time weakening their hold on the market.
Hindsight is 20/20. West End Games Star Wars never had a real chance of dethroning D&D. No Star Wars game ever did, because nobody can hold onto the rights to publish a Star Wars TTRPG long enough. The licensing rights get too expensive and the game inevitably folds. Of all the possible games that might take down D&D, Star Wars is on the list, but it would have to be an official House of Mouse product today. Back in the 90s, that meant it would have had to be a LucasArts product, and they were just too busy doing computer games. I'm pretty sure if you pulled Gen X Star Wars fans and ask them what kept the dream alive, you'll get a lot more people saying it was X-Wing vs TIE Fighter rather than WEG d6 Star Wars.
WEG held the Star Wars license for 12 years, that is the longest that it has been held so far.
One of the products that was in the works for WEG Star Wars that never got published was a sourcebook for the Rogue Squadron and Wraith Squadron novels that would have tied in to the X-Wing vs TIE Fighter computer games. THAT sourcebook would have been a throat punch to TSR D&D if it would have made it to publication.
Today, you are right. Licensing fees would be too high for a RPG publisher to make enough profit from the IP combined with the "planned obsolescence" built into licencing agreements in today's market to be viable. The fact that WEG Star Wars has enough oomph to keep being played by fans and written about by fans is a testament to the game's viability.
Quote from: Corolinth on July 16, 2022, 12:12:04 AM
Hindsight is 20/20. West End Games Star Wars never had a real chance of dethroning D&D. No Star Wars game ever did, because nobody can hold onto the rights to publish a Star Wars TTRPG long enough. The licensing rights get too expensive and the game inevitably folds.
Has this ever been demonstrated? WEG folded due to the shoe connection, and WotC is a bad example because any resources devoted to another RPG have to justify themselves not being used to further the reign of the 8000-lb. wyrm that is D&D. I don't know anything about how FFG's foray into the license turned out, so that may provide evidence for this contention.
Similar things happened with Star Trek, FWIW--I'm given to understand FASA lost it because Roddenberry didn't like the FASA approach when he reimagined Trek for early TNG, Last Unicorn got absorbed by WotC and tripped a clause in the licensing contract, and Decipher folded due to embezzlement. Not saying a Trek game could have been a D&D killer, but I think that if you dig into the history of these things, you'll often find more going on than just 'the product line didn't sell' or 'the license got too expensive.'
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 15, 2022, 03:01:17 PM
Could WEG Star Wars kick TSR D&D in the nuts in 1987? Fuck no. By 1998 though, it had a fighting chance to do so thanks to the popularity of the Star Wars franchise (which it was partially responsible for bringing about) and because of the mismanagement of TSR by that time weakening their hold on the market.
By 1998, WEG had largely fizzled out. The shoe thing killed them, but they were already slowing down before that. I'd guess their game line peaked in the early-to-mid-90s.
Don't get me wrong, their work was admirable, and WEG Star Wars is one of the best licensed RPGs of all time. As keepers of the flame, they were maybe the best to ever do it. But commercially, they never quite got to the point that, say,
Call of Cthulhu did.
Quote from: Lurkndog on July 16, 2022, 04:58:51 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 15, 2022, 03:01:17 PM
Could WEG Star Wars kick TSR D&D in the nuts in 1987? Fuck no. By 1998 though, it had a fighting chance to do so thanks to the popularity of the Star Wars franchise (which it was partially responsible for bringing about) and because of the mismanagement of TSR by that time weakening their hold on the market.
By 1998, WEG had largely fizzled out. The shoe thing killed them, but they were already slowing down before that. I'd guess their game line peaked in the early-to-mid-90s.
Don't get me wrong, their work was admirable, and WEG Star Wars is one of the best licensed RPGs of all time. As keepers of the flame, they were maybe the best to ever do it. But commercially, they never quite got to the point that, say, Call of Cthulhu did.
I'll agree to disagree here. Mainly because I've never seen as many people play
Call of Cthulhu as I did WEG Star Wars back in the 90's.
I didnt play it much, but I did notice around the early 90's Rifts had a lot of shelf space and seemed to be marketing pretty heavily in comic book ads. How popular was it then? It seemed to be around the time D&D 2e was hitting a plateau, and I know I saw several games of rifts around the Ship around that time.
Let's not forget how in Japan Call of Cthulhu already killed D&D (https://www.dicebreaker.com/games/call-of-cthulhu-rpg/news/call-of-cthulhu-dnd-japan-rpg).
A representative for Call of Cthulhu studio Chaosium told Dicebreaker that the Japanese-language release of the RPG doesn't just outsell any other language, it sells more copies than all of the game's other languages combined - English included.
I always wondered if it was by chance (CoC somehow became popular first and kept its lead) or if it is a cultural thing. If the latter, I wonder what the specific cultural differences are. True, many facets of Japanese culture make it unique, but saying "Japanese just love tentacles in their horror" is reductive (having studied Asian horror before Ring/Ringu made it popular, I can safely say how tentacles are part of that subgenre that we could call "horrific porn"). Classics like Ju-On, Dark Water, The Eye, A Tale of Two Sisters, Kairo and Shutter not only don't have a single tentacle in sight but also couldn't be turned in a CoC scenario at all.
Quote from: Reckall on July 17, 2022, 07:41:10 AM
I always wondered if it was by chance (CoC somehow became popular first and kept its lead) or if it is a cultural thing. If the latter, I wonder what the specific cultural differences are.
Exploring fantasies of shooting and blowing up horrible monsters while going insane? Gain power from academic studies?
Orcs have pig faces, Cthulhu has a squid face. Maybe there's a "fight monsters who look like food" cultural thing shared between RPGs?
My off the cuff thoughts regarding COC in Japan...How many fantasy RPGs are in Japan? I wonder if D&D has to share market with some other popular standard fantasy games and COC is sort of the only game in town in its particular (popular) genre. I say this because I see a lot of Japanese pop culture where they really seem into western medieval fantasy and its tropes (in much the same way people in the west get a little enamored with a katana) and it makes me think a medieval fantasy game has to be quite popular, but it could be that market is divided by other games in there with D&D.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 17, 2022, 08:14:59 AM
My off the cuff thoughts regarding COC in Japan...How many fantasy RPGs are in Japan? I wonder if D&D has to share market with some other popular standard fantasy games and COC is sort of the only game in town in its particular (popular) genre. I say this because I see a lot of Japanese pop culture where they really seem into western medieval fantasy and its tropes (in much the same way people in the west get a little enamored with a katana) and it makes me think a medieval fantasy game has to be quite popular, but it could be that market is divided by other games in there with D&D.
Just my 0.02 cents worth here, but D&D was pretty well represented in Japan with Basic D&D and its manga/anime adaptation of the author's D&D campaign in
Record of Lodoss War.
Record of Lodoss War had a stylistic effect on every bit of media in those genres that came after it.
Similarly, there was a Japanese version of
Classic Traveller and
Megatraveller published by Hobby Japan that were able to take root and borrow stylistically from
Legend of the Galactic Heroes and
Space Battleship Yamato. Neither ever gained the popularity of D&D or CoC over in Japan, but they were significant players in that region for their time.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 17, 2022, 06:31:20 AM
I didnt play it much, but I did notice around the early 90's Rifts had a lot of shelf space and seemed to be marketing pretty heavily in comic book ads. How popular was it then? It seemed to be around the time D&D 2e was hitting a plateau, and I know I saw several games of rifts around the Ship around that time.
RIFTS and other Palladium RPGs where some of the few non-D&D RPGs I encountered in the 90s and they were pretty popular back then at least where I live. The first non-D&D RPG I ever played was Robotech, followed by RIFTs.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 17, 2022, 08:14:59 AM
My off the cuff thoughts regarding COC in Japan...How many fantasy RPGs are in Japan? I wonder if D&D has to share market with some other popular standard fantasy games and COC is sort of the only game in town in its particular (popular) genre. I say this because I see a lot of Japanese pop culture where they really seem into western medieval fantasy and its tropes (in much the same way people in the west get a little enamored with a katana) and it makes me think a medieval fantasy game has to be quite popular, but it could be that market is divided by other games in there with D&D.
From what I understand the most popular RPG in Japan is Sword World, which is a Japanese fantasy RPG. CoC is actually the most popular non-Japanese RPG in Japan, but some Japanese RPGs are still more popular than it.
Quote from: Reckall on July 17, 2022, 07:41:10 AM
Let's not forget how in Japan Call of Cthulhu already killed D&D (https://www.dicebreaker.com/games/call-of-cthulhu-rpg/news/call-of-cthulhu-dnd-japan-rpg).
A representative for Call of Cthulhu studio Chaosium told Dicebreaker that the Japanese-language release of the RPG doesn't just outsell any other language, it sells more copies than all of the game's other languages combined - English included.
I always wondered if it was by chance (CoC somehow became popular first and kept its lead) or if it is a cultural thing. If the latter, I wonder what the specific cultural differences are. True, many facets of Japanese culture make it unique, but saying "Japanese just love tentacles in their horror" is reductive (having studied Asian horror before Ring/Ringu made it popular, I can safely say how tentacles are part of that subgenre that we could call "horrific porn"). Classics like Ju-On, Dark Water, The Eye, A Tale of Two Sisters, Kairo and Shutter not only don't have a single tentacle in sight but also couldn't be turned in a CoC scenario at all.
Yeah, was gonna mention that, but it seems the conversation is mostly around the global market. I know that there are other regions where D&D is not the most popular game. As you mentioned, CoC in Japan, and Die Schwarze Auge in Germany. However, even in this markets it looks like D&D is still a significant player. It's not like the US where basically all the other competitors combined cannot match D&D's market share.
For a while, MtG was the D&D killer. Perhaps it still is.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 17, 2022, 06:45:56 PM
For a while, MtG was the D&D killer. Perhaps it still is.
If we're going by other games, I wonder how World of Warcaft (or Pokemon, or Yu-Gi-Oh) was selling in comparison?
Well not that I care, since I don't buy DnD products...
IF there was going to be a "DnD Killer" (which I don't think DnD will ever die as a brand or game) - but when 6e drops and they go more Woke(tm), it might create another 4e event where another system overtakes them.
Unlikely but you never know.
But again, this is a case of WotC being the DnD-Killer. The brand is the sky under which all RPG's are played. Just like if for some reason WotC folded, and Hasbro sold the IP off to Free League, and they slapped the DnD banner on their house system and ditched d20... the sheer brand-momentum would pull a massive portion of the gaming populace with it. I actually think that would be good for the hobby - but that's all fantasy talk.
I say this as I watch the American Comics industry implode... one can only hope.
Quote from: tenbones on July 18, 2022, 09:57:03 AM
I say this as I watch the American Comics industry implode... one can only hope.
Well, if we are looking at comics as an example, it does give some hope since we had that one independent creator, young rippa, getting over 2 million dollars in one week for the pre-order of his new comic line.
If the rpg industry really does keep antagonizing its customer base, there is a legitimate chance that someone will blow them out of the water.
Quote from: Hzilong on July 18, 2022, 03:36:00 PM
Quote from: tenbones on July 18, 2022, 09:57:03 AM
I say this as I watch the American Comics industry implode... one can only hope.
Well, if we are looking at comics as an example, it does give some hope since we had that one independent creator, young rippa, getting over 2 million dollars in one week for the pre-order of his new comic line.
If the rpg industry really does keep antagonizing its customer base, there is a legitimate chance that someone will blow them out of the water.
Rippa actually was who I was thinking of when I posted. *WE* in the gaming industry, need to be ready to do likewise. The OBS situation should be a wakeup call. 6e when it drops like a post-digested wet sausage on us and goes south, should be what we prepare for.
Marvel/DC have killed themselves. Rippa didn't kill them. He executed because the need was there. He was ready. We need to be like him.