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Author Topic: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow  (Read 8109 times)

Namie

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #75 on: May 20, 2022, 02:28:44 PM »
Quote
As for why new varieties... Personally, I like the trope of introducing different cultures for the same physical race. It's been done before in D&D, but it hasn't been overdone, and there's plenty of room for more variety in the cultures of the core races. Fantasy fiction in general has a tendency towards monocultures for non-human races, and I think it's good to have options away from that.

There's no value in a culture with 0 internal conflict, where everything runs smoothly and resources are literally infinite, and all of that is handwaved with an explanation like "uhh, magic... yeah, magic did it!" Especially in a world like the Forgotten Realms, where not even magocracies have that kind of access to magically conjured resources. Yet, this is what Salvatore did with the Aevendrow.

There's also no value in saying that these massive cultures have always been there, in places that border other civilizations, but that no one ever noticed them for *tens of thousands* of years. Especially because hyper advanced civilizations like the Aevendrow leave deep traces in the environs. Once again, everything is handwaved with "they hide... WITH MAGIC! And they erase memories WITH MAGIC! And they're so awesome that people willingly let their memories be erased!" Because we can't afford giving these civilizations any problem, so even blatant violence must be artificially justified. Moreover, why are they hiding? They have insane mastery over magic, and their numbers are FAR bigger than Menzo (and note that Salvatore dramatically changed the history of the drow in FR, saying that the drow who would become followers of Lolth simply went underground, founded Menzo, and Menzo is the bulk of their numbers).

In short, it's the worst kind of worldbuilding, with 0 thought put into it, and 0 respect for the work done before. It's just an extremely incompetent way to do "representation".
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 02:31:17 PM by Namie »

SHARK

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #76 on: May 20, 2022, 02:40:26 PM »
Wait, this article was from last year?
I.. don't understand why these new types of drow are necessary.
I guess people at WoTC don't understand the norse mythology that inspired drow?
If you want to have more kinds of elfs, fine ,that's cool, but like.. just.. what?   There's already like.. 7-8 or more kinds of elves before this change in drow? Drow were already a flavor of elf.

I agree the new types aren't necessary - but that's true of anything new. The drow as a whole aren't necessary - D&D worked fine before the drow were introduced. One can have a great game without the new drow cultures, or without drow at all, or without elves at all.

As for why new varieties... Personally, I like the trope of introducing different cultures for the same physical race. It's been done before in D&D, but it hasn't been overdone, and there's plenty of room for more variety in the cultures of the core races. Fantasy fiction in general has a tendency towards monocultures for non-human races, and I think it's good to have options away from that.

In my current D&D campaign, all of the races have non-standard culture because it's not a European-inspired setting. So, for example, one of the PCs is a wood elf - but here "woods" means Amazon-like jungle because that's the forest of the setting. So these wood elves are jungle warriors with a particular hatred for the Yuan-ti who are the main evil in their environment.

Greetings!

Good stuff, Jhkim. Having different varieties and cultural interpretations of races and such is awesome. I think more people would embrace such ideas--or at least be willing to consider them--if these ideas being pushed by WOTC and others weren't pumped full of SJW BS. That is where many people get immediately hostile to even the concept--because of such ideas being pumped with SJW BS and framed into some flavour of SJW REEE fit.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

SHARK

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #77 on: May 20, 2022, 02:54:24 PM »
Quote
As for why new varieties... Personally, I like the trope of introducing different cultures for the same physical race. It's been done before in D&D, but it hasn't been overdone, and there's plenty of room for more variety in the cultures of the core races. Fantasy fiction in general has a tendency towards monocultures for non-human races, and I think it's good to have options away from that.

There's no value in a culture with 0 internal conflict, where everything runs smoothly and resources are literally infinite, and all of that is handwaved with an explanation like "uhh, magic... yeah, magic did it!" Especially in a world like the Forgotten Realms, where not even magocracies have that kind of access to magically conjured resources. Yet, this is what Salvatore did with the Aevendrow.

There's also no value in saying that these massive cultures have always been there, in places that border other civilizations, but that no one ever noticed them for *tens of thousands* of years. Especially because hyper advanced civilizations like the Aevendrow leave deep traces in the environs. Once again, everything is handwaved with "they hide... WITH MAGIC! And they erase memories WITH MAGIC! And they're so awesome that people willingly let their memories be erased!" Because we can't afford giving these civilizations any problem, so even blatant violence must be artificially justified. Moreover, why are they hiding? They have insane mastery over magic, and their numbers are FAR bigger than Menzo (and note that Salvatore dramatically changed the history of the drow in FR, saying that the drow who would become followers of Lolth simply went underground, founded Menzo, and Menzo is the bulk of their numbers).

In short, it's the worst kind of worldbuilding, with 0 thought put into it, and 0 respect for the work done before. It's just an extremely incompetent way to do "representation".

Greetings!

Excellent points, Namie!

Very poor worldbuilding! That is why I think as they have proceeded, they have increasingly fucked up more and more. Think of how divorced from historical principles, resources, geography, and so on they are on so many aspects.

In our own real history, a constant theme emerges, nearly everywhere, amongst all peoples. They are always fighting, always struggling against rivals and enemies, for resources, women, animals, land. Even small, isolated, obscure tribes way the hell up in Siberia, or in central Africa, in the Himmalayas, Tibet, the deepest jungles of Central America or South America. Even small, isolated tribes, experience war, competition, and *conflict*

But somehow, in WOTC fantasy Barney Land, there are races that manage to live in peaceful rainbow harmony and bliss for thousands of years. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

jhkim

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2022, 04:33:44 PM »
As for why new varieties... Personally, I like the trope of introducing different cultures for the same physical race. It's been done before in D&D, but it hasn't been overdone, and there's plenty of room for more variety in the cultures of the core races. Fantasy fiction in general has a tendency towards monocultures for non-human races, and I think it's good to have options away from that.

In my current D&D campaign, all of the races have non-standard culture because it's not a European-inspired setting. So, for example, one of the PCs is a wood elf - but here "woods" means Amazon-like jungle because that's the forest of the setting. So these wood elves are jungle warriors with a particular hatred for the Yuan-ti who are the main evil in their environment.

Good stuff, Jhkim. Having different varieties and cultural interpretations of races and such is awesome. I think more people would embrace such ideas--or at least be willing to consider them--if these ideas being pushed by WOTC and others weren't pumped full of SJW BS. That is where many people get immediately hostile to even the concept--because of such ideas being pumped with SJW BS and framed into some flavour of SJW REEE fit.

I found a playtest writeup of the new drow varieties here. It is free (pay what you want).

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/363504/Jarlaxles-Bag-of-Everything-Drow-Lineages

I don't see anything in it that strikes me as SJW about the Starlight elves. The Greenshadow elves' love of nature and rejection of the elven gods (having only druids, no clerics) could be taken as SJW for being environmentalist and/or anti-church, but it seems to fit pretty well within the game world. Elves have always had an environmentalist streak in them, and it's built into the game mechanics that druids revering nature is different from clerical worship of gods.

It seemed to me that posters here were not reacting to the content of either the Starlight or Greenshadow, but rather to the concept of having different cultures of drow.

jhkim

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #79 on: May 20, 2022, 05:23:20 PM »
Quote
As for why new varieties... Personally, I like the trope of introducing different cultures for the same physical race. It's been done before in D&D, but it hasn't been overdone, and there's plenty of room for more variety in the cultures of the core races. Fantasy fiction in general has a tendency towards monocultures for non-human races, and I think it's good to have options away from that.

There's no value in a culture with 0 internal conflict, where everything runs smoothly and resources are literally infinite, and all of that is handwaved with an explanation like "uhh, magic... yeah, magic did it!" Especially in a world like the Forgotten Realms, where not even magocracies have that kind of access to magically conjured resources. Yet, this is what Salvatore did with the Aevendrow.

There's also no value in saying that these massive cultures have always been there, in places that border other civilizations, but that no one ever noticed them for *tens of thousands* of years.

Welcome, Namie. To clarify - I've played D&D a lot, but I've never read any Salvatore novels at all, and thus also not the latest, Starlight Enclave. The only way that I know the Aevendrow are through the initial article linked from the original post (OP) of this thread and now from the DMs Guild playtest writeup.

I would easily believe that Salvatore's novel about the Aevendrow sucked. If so, that's too bad.

I think especially the latter is a problem of continuity. Yes, it's stupid for a major culture to exist and no one noticed them. It's a frequent problem for introducing new game elements into a pre-existing world. It was similar for introducing the drow into Greyhawk, where in 1978 drow were only a rumor, then they became a player character option.

I'm not currently running Forgotten Realms, but if I was, I'd probably ignore the Salvatore novel and have the Aevendrow be retconned into being a known element of the arctic who interact with other arctic cultures. They would also have problems and internal conflicts equivalent to other elven cultures.

Omega

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #80 on: May 20, 2022, 06:35:09 PM »
Except Gary Gygax released Unearthed Arcana in 1985, which has drow as an official race for players - and drow characters could be of good alignment and non-Lolth-worshipping. He might not have liked Drizzt, but it's a character type he clearly allowed for.

Oh, I'll grant you that. No arguments. That's one of the things about the UA Cavalier; drow could be one. I always thought that cool.

I'm not going to tell anyone how to run drow in their game, but the way I choose to interpret that quote is, as a whole, that's the way the dark elves act. There is room for the Drizzt or worshipers of Elistraee (however you spell it). But they're rare.

UA is in part a compillation book of articles from Dragon that were playtested and altered. And over the years opinions and presentations can abd will change and sometimes change again. Remember that Gary loved to create new stuff and experiment with ideas. Especially player suggestions. So taking a try at playable drow makes perfect sense. Hand the players the tools and let them use them or not.