Not bashing on the fantasy thread, not ripping it off, just making a logical compliment to it.
What don't you like in your SF RPGs?
I'm not happy with inconsistent technology, like having one gadget that does wonderous function X, but does it in a way that should be applied to umpteen other things and isn't.
Consistent tech makes me quite happy, BTW.
Aliens that are just fantasy races with a new paintjob don't please me much. I like alien aliens, like traveller's hivers. Please, no orcs in space.
Too many old plot chiche's are bad in any setting, of course.
Also, if it's going to be scince fiction, try to keep some science in it if you can. You can have devices that operate in ways that may violate our current understanding of some laws of physics since they're obviously imcomplete or wrong, but try for at least some scientific credibility, and if you do have new sciences that are ahead of ours, allowing people to do things we don't think can be done today, try to keep them consistent and think thru the ramifications of them in advance.
Psionics or telekinetics in hard SF games.
Star Trek aliens -- i.e. humans with seafood glued to their heads
Inconsistency -- to use a Traveller example, if you're going to publish High Guard with rules for gi-normous starships and enormous fleet budgets, you'd better have something better than a handwave for why small warships are would even still be built.
Recapitulating Earth history -- if I can tell in five minutes that your great stellar conqueror is Belisarius or Genghis Khan with a blaster, it falls flat.
Anachronisms -- too many references to modern Earth history thousands of years in the future (sorry, Koltar, I don't think Maggie Thatcher is even going to be a footnote in three thousand years). This includes survivor isolates -- nobody is going to export an Earth culture and then preserve it in amber for any length of time over a century.
Archetypal one-note races or cultures -- the "warrior" race, the "thinker" race, etc.
Really, most of these apply to SF fiction as well as RPGs.
Technology that would logically remove humans as heroes.
Technobabble weapons. This is the one thing that truly annoyed me about alternity.
2d starmaps. Yeah, I grew up with Traveller, but I want more.
Planets that couldn't exist. Star systems that couldn't exist.
Thermodynamic impossibilities. Don't be telling me how your world that should be as hot as Venus is inhabited because below the surface it's supposed to be cooler.
Settings stuck in one star system. Yeah, I know, most prevailing theories suggest that FTL will never be possible. I don't care. This flight of fancy I'll take.
When the science becomes more important than the people and their stories.
For "harder" science fiction:
* I'm also an "aliens that aren't alien" bugs me guy.
* The obvious applications of technology need to be considered. A "transporter" is a fantastic weapon, and if you can use black holes as a power source then you can drop them on planets.
* Why is there zero transhuman elements in setting X? Why do the AI suck?
For "softer" science fiction:
* Alien species that are simplistic and fit standard stereotypes without having anything new or interesting going on. The spiritual warrior race, for instance.
Quote from: RockViperPsionics or telekinetics in hard SF games.
Truth Bruv... Let's be honest... It's magic and magic has no place in SF.
Near as I can tell from Mr. A's discussion, I actually hate sci-fi.
I sure like stuff with plasma weapons and starships and robots in it, though.
I don't play much SF games, but I don't really like it, when SF games don't have a "big idea" in them. I mean I like Space Opera, which I consider fantasy in space (like most folks), but my SF games should have that "big idea" about anything tech, humanity, politics etc.
Regards,
David R
Yeah, it's funny, I find myself mildly turned off by the "Imperium" concept in Traveller because it upsets what I think of as an otherwise "retro-hard" SF feel in the game.
Yet if someone were to base a game on Legend of the Galactic Heroes, I'd think it was really cool. In fact I tried to steer a Burning Sands mini-campaign world-building session more or less in that direction, with one side as a pseudo-Prussian aristocratric empire, the other as a pseudo-leftist republic, and the third as a pseudo-feudal group of colonized natives.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalTruth Bruv... Let's be honest... It's magic and magic has no place in SF.
Eh, it's a classic SF genre element, it doesn't fit hard sf sure, but for most sf it's pretty standard genre material.
Next you'll be saying you don't like ftl...
Quote from: Dominus NoxI'm not happy with inconsistent technology, like having one gadget that does wonderous function X, but does it in a way that should be applied to umpteen other things and isn't.
Consistent tech makes me quite happy, BTW.
Aliens that are just fantasy races with a new paintjob don't please me much. I like alien aliens, like traveller's hivers. Please, no orcs in space.
Too many old plot chiche's are bad in any setting, of course.
Also, if it's going to be scince fiction, try to keep some science in it if you can. You can have devices that operate in ways that may violate our current understanding of some laws of physics since they're obviously imcomplete or wrong, but try for at least some scientific credibility, and if you do have new sciences that are ahead of ours, allowing people to do things we don't think can be done today, try to keep them consistent and think thru the ramifications of them in advance.
That's not a bad list from my perspective actually.
Basically, I hate humans with funny foreheads, I don't like tech where the implications aren't thought through, I don't like tired retreads of our own history as someone else said.
Unless it's space opera, then I demand all these things.
And human scale, if it's not about the experience of being human still I cease to care. That's true for any genre though, not just sf.
Quote from: Christmas ApeNear as I can tell from Mr. A's discussion, I actually hate sci-fi.
I sure like stuff with plasma weapons and starships and robots in it, though.
Fuckin' signed.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadTechnology that would logically remove humans as heroes.
Technobabble weapons. This is the one thing that truly annoyed me about alternity.
2d starmaps. Yeah, I grew up with Traveller, but I want more.
Planets that couldn't exist. Star systems that couldn't exist.
Thermodynamic impossibilities. Don't be telling me how your world that should be as hot as Venus is inhabited because below the surface it's supposed to be cooler.
Settings stuck in one star system. Yeah, I know, most prevailing theories suggest that FTL will never be possible. I don't care. This flight of fancy I'll take.
As to planets that couldn't exist, i agree. One of the many failing in that generally boring "Riddick" movie was that the planet crematoria had a breathable atmosphere.
No way. Impossible. A lifeless planet with an O2 atmosphere is extremely unlikely as on earth O2 is only produced by biological activity. There doesn't seem to be any way for an O2 atmosphere to exist sans life producing it.
Oxygen is just to unstable and bonds with too much for it to stay in a free form unless something producing it constantly.
Quote from: Elliot WilenYeah, it's funny, I find myself mildly turned off by the "Imperium" concept in Traveller because it upsets what I think of as an otherwise "retro-hard" SF feel in the game.
Yet if someone were to base a game on Legend of the Galactic Heroes, I'd think it was really cool. In fact I tried to steer a Burning Sands mini-campaign world-building session more or less in that direction, with one side as a pseudo-Prussian aristocratric empire, the other as a pseudo-leftist republic, and the third as a pseudo-feudal group of colonized natives.
Well, the idea of an "imperium" was based on the fact it could literally take months, or years, to get messages from the edge of the imperium to the core and back. So there had to be semi autonomous sections that could operate without direction from 'the throne' and deal with new situations aotunomously.
Now, I would have preferred a democratic form of government, with the local systems and such electing leaders rather than having the laughable concept of heridatary nobility, but the fuindamental idea of a government based on not getting instant word from the central power had to be enacted to make traveller's society work, and they did a decent job of it.
They also did a decent job of showing how fossilized and atrophiced such a system can become, and how it can be knocked down by aany duyanic infleunce from outside after it's had time to ossify for a few millennia.
Quote from: Dominus NoxAs to planets that couldn't exist, i agree. One of the many failing in that generally boring "Riddick" movie was that the planet crematoria had a breathable atmosphere.
Hah! We have common ground, I nitpicked that immediately. I think I was taking a two semester astronomy class at the time, though :)
Quote from: C.W.RichesonHah! We have common ground, I nitpicked that immediately. I think I was taking a two semester astronomy class at the time, though :)
I ws thinking about it in the theater, along with the fact I was glad I had a pass to get in and hadn't wasted 5$......
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalTruth Bruv... Let's be honest... It's magic and magic has no place in SF.
That's the angle I take when people tell me psionics doesn't belong in fantasy. As a form of magic, that's its proper home.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadThat's the angle I take when people tell me psionics doesn't belong in fantasy. As a form of magic, that's its proper home.
I can most definitely get behind the idea that psionics is just an alternative way of doing magic. In science fiction, however, psionics is meant to be a natural part of the universe and expression of consciousness. I don't view it as inappropriate except in harder sci-fi.
I'd say that I hate the idea of a galactically famous gangsta-rapping smartworm parasite that gives its model-and-athlete hosts a cut of the profits to use them as a form of eternal youth and marketability. Too bad I think it's actually, you know, pretty cool.
Especially if you have to smuggle him out of an orbital casino by hiding "him" in a Haagen-Daz container in your carry on luggage.
Quote from: C.W.RichesonI can most definitely get behind the idea that psionics is just an alternative way of doing magic. In science fiction, however, psionics is meant to be a natural part of the universe and expression of consciousness. I don't view it as inappropriate except in harder sci-fi.
I also find that, while it is pretty much pseudo-science, it still has enough of an air of trying to be science, that ifeels terribly out of place in fantasy games, much like what Balbinus talked about with "overscientifying" things, in this post in the fantasy thread. (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=79744&postcount=69)
Nox, by your own reasoning we could argue there shouldn't be an Imperium but some kind of atomized patchwork of mid-sized alliances and fully autonomous systems.
What's most loathsome about the Imperium, though, is the nobles in their silly uniforms.
Re. psionics, I'm afraid my response is BLLLLEEEARRRGGHHH.
Psionics may be scifi, but the way rayguns are scifi or the Monster from the Green Lagoon. So, they have no place outside Spaceship Zero.
Lastly, no furries or mecha please.
That's it. Like fantasy, scifi is basically all good. I love it to death.
Imperiums rock, as a rule.
I am put off, however, by a lack of fetishism for Great War-era German stormtroopers. If I can't have skull-masked, longcoat-clad flamer teams I'm just going to pick up my blocks and go home.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityLastly, no furries or mecha please.
As a genre unto themselves, mecha are fine with me. But I can certainly do without furries even broadly defined, unless we're talking silly anime. The Vargr and Aslan, for example, are also turnoffs for me in
Traveller.
Strangely I don't have nearly the same kneejerk response to insect-men and reptile-men.
Quote from: Elliot WilenAs a genre unto themselves, mecha are fine with me. But I can certainly do without furries even broadly defined, unless we're talking silly anime. The Vargr and Aslan, for example, are also turnoffs for me in Traveller.
Strangely I don't have nearly the same kneejerk response to insect-men and reptile-men.
That's 'cause 1) Lizard and insect men are cool, and 2) lizards and insects tend to seem more alien to us than our fellow mammals.
It's sort of like why giant isopods are fucking freaky.
I can roll with a lot of stuff in SF, but I'm not into psionics in my Trav games. Just not my thing.
I really don't like cross-license pollination. Keep your goddamned Klingons outta my Star Wars game or I swear I will punch you in the ass.
Er, you can have Kling- uh, Klengons in my Encounter Critical game, though, becuse DUH.
Oh, and another thing. You start talkin' 'bout Midichlorians, I start swingin' this here shovel what's dipped in flaming tar. HUUURRRRAAARRRGGH!!!
Re: Psionics in SF.
I sort of accept in in Traveller, but I don't take it as automatic. However, this stance has exposed me to the reality that some players expect magical/psionic abilities NO MATTER THE GAME.
Re: Animal Men.
I've never gotten on with the revulsion here. As long as you don't make it too blatant, I have no problem accepting it. We have no exposure to actual alien races to tell what they will be like. But I consider it highly likely that there are a limited number of possible configurations for limbs (arms, tentacles), skin texture (scales, fleshy, chitinous), skin covering (fur, feathers), facial configurations, and so forth. The chances of alien species showing up with a resemblance to something we are familiar with seems pretty good.
At first, I thought Vargr and Aslan (in Traveller) were kinda dorky. "Space-dogs?" I said to myself, "0MGWTFXXORZ?!"
Well, not really. It was more of a "Mehhhh..." response. I digress.
But further reading changed my mind. Remember that ad in Dragon that challenged you to pick out the most dangerous combatant between a wolf-dude, a vaguely leonine-guy and a big herbivore that smells funny? Turns out their cultures are so distinct from your expectations that, by golly, even the space-pooches are interesting.
For the record, here's how the hypothetical combats woulda gone: The Vargr (wolf-guy) fights for dominance, and he's smaller than you. If you make him look bad in front of his buddies (or at least show him you can take him), the fight's over. The Aslan (not a cat, really, but vaguely reminiscent) fights for honor; whoever draws first blood wins, and he's satisfied either way.
The herbivorous K'kree, on the other hand, is an overzealous, arrogant, antagonistic carnivore-hater and will kill your jerky-chewin' ass because he smells it on your breath. Nasty bastards.
Surprise!
Quote from: Caesar SlaadHowever, this stance has exposed me to the reality that some players expect magical/psionic abilities NO MATTER THE GAME.
Word.
Quotetentacles
Mollusk men are fine by me, too.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!At first, I thought Vargr and Aslan (in Traveller) were kinda dorky. "Space-dogs?" I said to myself, "0MGWTFXXORZ?!"
Well, not really. It was more of a "Mehhhh..." response. I digress.
But further reading changed my mind. Remember that ad in Dragon that challenged you to pick out the most dangerous combatant between a wolf-dude, a vaguely leonine-guy and a big herbivore that smells funny? Turns out their cultures are so distinct from your expectations that, by golly, even the space-pooches are interesting.
That is one of my favorite RPG ads of all time, I loved it. Traveller is the game I think of when I think of "breaking the species stereotype."
Yeah, the Traveller aliens had pretty humble beginnings. At first, they were pretty much the stereotypes people with bad reactions picture them to be.
But the writers who added to them over the years really added a lot of depth to them.
Overall, I thought you had a good list.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadPlanets that couldn't exist. Star systems that couldn't exist.
How far (nit-picky) do you go with this, and does it extend to the life on those planets? Does this objection also include moons that couldn't exist (e.g., more than one large one, inside the Roche limit, etc.).
Quote from: Caesar SlaadSettings stuck in one star system. Yeah, I know, most prevailing theories suggest that FTL will never be possible. I don't care. This flight of fancy I'll take.
What, in particular bothers you about this? Technically, Firefly/Serenity take place in one system, as does Starhunter & Starhunter 2300, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Total Recall, etc. Does it bother you there or just in your RPGs?
The K'Kree pass muster. Nay, I go further, they are the only vegetarians I tolerate.
Re. psionics, mecha, Imperial nobles et al., I should have said what Doc R already did: I don't object to these things per se, I just like to keep the genres neatly separate. Traveller is Traveller* and Star Wars is Star Wars, and I like both.
*I notice this actually opens the real can of worms, on whose label are emblazoned the fiery words: "Just What IS Traveller, Exactly?"
And as we all know the answer to that question is...
YES!
Not a fan of psionics in SF games in general, unless they are carefully controlled (I feel the same way about magic in my fantasy).
Mostly I hate the "the party is a smuggler/merchant crew that performs wacky missions in their space freighter" cliche-fest. I've actually come to where I actively dislike the d6 WEG Star Wars now - solely because of how much they push for that type of game (which I can't stand). Yeah, I know - a lot of people like that kind of thing. I don't.
Quote from: Dominus NoxNo way. Impossible. A lifeless planet with an O2 atmosphere is extremely unlikely as on earth O2 is only produced by biological activity. There doesn't seem to be any way for an O2 atmosphere to exist sans life producing it.
That's a mistake that you'll find all over the place. And even if a planet has life, there is no guarantee that it will be pumping out oxygen or that it doesn't pump out or deal with elements and chemicals that aren't highly toxic to us. Further, the idea that any alien world that hasn't been terraformed or seeded by some variant on the "ancients" theme will have life that's recognizably grass or a tree or an insect or a mammal or whatever form of Earth life you want to pick is highly unlikely. If you want a bunch of human-habitable planets with human-edible life, then humans probably need to have made it that way.
Quote from: jgantsNot a fan of psionics in SF games in general, unless they are carefully controlled (I feel the same way about magic in my fantasy).
Mostly I hate the "the party is a smuggler/merchant crew that performs wacky missions in their space freighter" cliche-fest. I've actually come to where I actively dislike the d6 WEG Star Wars now - solely because of how much they push for that type of game (which I can't stand). Yeah, I know - a lot of people like that kind of thing. I don't.
Again, I love that setup in Traveller. But, and this is the only correct idea about gaming that Kiero has ever had, in Star Wars you play a Jedi, period.
I like aliens. I do not like space opera. I like character based story and do not like miniatures games that pretend to be RPGs.
(http://neb.hinterwelt.com/images/Dras.jpg)
Quote from: Pierce InverarityNox, by your own reasoning we could argue there shouldn't be an Imperium but some kind of atomized patchwork of mid-sized alliances and fully autonomous systems.
What's most loathsome about the Imperium, though, is the nobles in their silly uniforms.
Re. psionics, I'm afraid my response is BLLLLEEEARRRGGHHH.
Psionics may be scifi, but the way rayguns are scifi or the Monster from the Green Lagoon. So, they have no place outside Spaceship Zero.
Lastly, no furries or mecha please.
That's it. Like fantasy, scifi is basically all good. I love it to death.
Well, the good point about an imperium, or a democratic federation, is that in time of war you can eventually draw upon everyone's strength faster than you could with a 'patchwork".
Also, the sad fact is some people just have to feel like they're the rulers of the universe, and these people tend to create imperiums. As I said, a democratic republic/federation would work too.
Quote from: John MorrowThat's a mistake that you'll find all over the place. And even if a planet has life, there is no guarantee that it will be pumping out oxygen or that it doesn't pump out or deal with elements and chemicals that aren't highly toxic to us. Further, the idea that any alien world that hasn't been terraformed or seeded by some variant on the "ancients" theme will have life that's recognizably grass or a tree or an insect or a mammal or whatever form of Earth life you want to pick is highly unlikely. If you want a bunch of human-habitable planets with human-edible life, then humans probably need to have made it that way.
Well, I never said that a planet would have a human-tolerable atmosphere because it had life. You're of course right a planet could be teeming with life and not have an atmosphere humans could stand, but the salient point is that without life a planet would, it seems as far as we know, have very little if any chance of having a tolerable atmo to humans.
In fact, before earth evolved life, I think it's atmo was mostly ammonia and methane, if I'm not mistaken. What's called a 'reducing atmospehere."
Quote from: HinterWeltI like aliens. I do not like space opera. I like character based story and do not like miniatures games that pretend to be RPGs.
(http://neb.hinterwelt.com/images/Dras.jpg)
Not a terribly original creature, but very, very nicely drawn. Your work?
Quote from: BalbinusEh, it's a classic SF genre element, it doesn't fit hard sf sure, but for most sf it's pretty standard genre material.
Next you'll be saying you don't like ftl...
I don't mind FTL but I do think the time dilation involved in sub-light travel is a cooler plot device than instantaneous travel between star systems.
I don't mind psychic powers when they're used in a Philip K Dick way and all about madness and manipulation and that kind of stuff. When they're just generic cool powers included just for the sake of it then I think it's magic. I've never EVER seen any RPG use them in a worthwhile way.
Quote from: Elliot WilenWord.
Mollusk men are fine by me, too.
Ah, a member of the Doctor Zoidberg fanclub, I see.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityAgain, I love that setup in Traveller. But, and this is the only correct idea about gaming that Kiero has ever had, in Star Wars you play a Jedi, period.
No offense, but nuts to that. As a kid I wanted to be Luke Skywalker, but I soon wised up and
now I wanna be Han Solo.
As an aside...I shunned mission-based gaming for years, because I got tired of it. Now, I realize that it's a convenient springboard to adventure, and easy to prep. It's by no means the
only way I want a game to start out, but it's a low-stress way to get the ball rolling; I figure, in the course of having wacky starship-delivery adventures, the PCs will develop enough personal hooks for further escapades.
By which I mean to say, jgants,
you are wrong and your head is full of poo I totally get where you're coming from, but if you look at it from another angle, you can spot a different use for it.
Quote from: Dominus NoxNot a terribly original creature, but very, very nicely drawn. Your work?
Mark Brooks, a truly talented artist from the UK. Unfortunately, he is not active in the industry much any more but we keep in touch. A good guy.
The Dras use hydrogen filled bladders to float along in the oxygen bands on certain gas giants. They are thought to be primitive but trainable by gas miners as they have a fondness (an addiction) to sugar. A rather interesting if not practical race.
Bill
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!By which I mean to say, jgants, you are wrong and your head is full of poo I totally get where you're coming from, but if you look at it from another angle, you can spot a different use for it.
I see the use for it - I just think it sucks. I don't like suffering through boring courier missions for months on end until I finally get to the cool stuff.
By which I do not necesarily mean space opera combat fests. I would be equally happy with intergalactic tales of intrigue or scientific exploration.
Quote from: balzacqInconsistency -- to use a Traveller example, if you're going to publish High Guard with rules for gi-normous starships and enormous fleet budgets, you'd better have something better than a handwave for why small warships are would even still be built.
Simple economics? Think of the huge amount of resources and capital it takes to build a fleet. How about limited timetable for production? Then there's the old Battle Rider v. Battle Tender debate pitting larger jump-capable battleships against smaller non-jump battleships that reply on a jump-carrier. Then there are other role-specific designs and design philosophies. Enh, I don't have a problem with it.
I do have a problem with instantaneous inter-stellar and intra-stellar travel. In other words, inconsistent ship speed with regard to realistic travel distances.
Traveller's jump is a pretty big hand-waive, but at least it takes a solid week in jumpspace, and it's offset by the length of travel in- and out-system.
I don't mind psionics so much, but it's an issue of scale for me. Teleportation and gross-scale telekinesis begin to bend and break the system for me.
!i!
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI don't mind FTL but I do think the time dilation involved in sub-light travel is a cooler plot device than instantaneous travel between star systems.
IMO FTL isn't a plot device at all, but it serves certain SF needs by facilitating things like planetary exploration. That is it's not a "magic" intrusion like overused psionic powers, because it's not meant to be the focus of play.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadRe: Animal Men.
I've never gotten on with the revulsion here. As long as you don't make it too blatant, I have no problem accepting it. We have no exposure to actual alien races to tell what they will be like. But I consider it highly likely that there are a limited number of possible configurations for limbs (arms, tentacles), skin texture (scales, fleshy, chitinous), skin covering (fur, feathers), facial configurations, and so forth. The chances of alien species showing up with a resemblance to something we are familiar with seems pretty good.
I agree with what you're saying, but I'm sure you also agree that the anthropomorphized animal trope is a very tired one. I don't mind them much if there is some attempt to handwave them in and explain just how they ended up as so similar to an Earth creature.
The Vargr are a good example - they were genetically manipulated and moved from Earth by the Ancients. That's actually a pretty damned interesting hook, but it seems that it's rarely delved into. I mean, really, how does Vargr society deal with being an "uplifted" race?
Why did the Ancients choose to "create" the Vargr in the first place? These are questions that could be the basis of an entire campaign.
I also think it's clever how Traveller explained there being several different human races populating the galaxy, using the Ancients again. The Star Trek explanation that somehow the human form was "predestined" by ancient alien DNA manipulation seems way too forced for me. I mean, all these human-like races evolved to look that similar because these ancient aliens "seeded" worlds with single-celled life that shared DNA? All the variables involved would still make the evolution of even two human-like races really, really unlikely.
So what don't I like? I don't like an abundance of Earth-like worlds, especially if these worlds somehow developed naturally. Maybe we'll find out Earth-like worlds are more common than we now think, but at the moment, it certainly seems like they don't come about around every star. In my own setting, there are a dozen (and counting) Earth-like worlds throughout a large volume of space, but I've made that a major element of the setting - the "why" and "how" of this is a mystery that bears intense investigation by PCs.
Like Caesar Slaad, I also don't like settings that are confined to one star system (usually Earth's). Scientists are even now working on theories to circumvent the speed of light limit; I imagine 500+ years from now that something will have been developed that allows FTL travel. Even if I'm wrong, hell, I still think it's more fun to roam the galaxy.
Anything that takes away human agency gets kicked to the curb, primarily for reasons of playability.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerAnything that takes away human agency gets kicked to the curb, primarily for reasons of playability.
Explain please.
!i!
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI don't mind FTL but I do think the time dilation involved in sub-light travel is a cooler plot device than instantaneous travel between star systems.
I agree here. The slower version of travel makes it usable within the normal human lifespan but still conveys, for me at least, some of the huge expanse of space. Just how much
nothing there is out there.
Although Elliot is right about FTL normally not being the focus of the game/plot/etc., when FTL is present it is usually a very key enabler and shaper of the central conflicts. Such as not nessasarily being able to see where a ship went (which is often handled very wierdly and with poor science IMO....or maybe I don't properly understand exactly how the time dilation would affect this?) or allowing inter-solar system travel within a normal human lifespan.
QuoteI don't mind psychic powers when they're used in a Philip K Dick way and all about madness and manipulation and that kind of stuff. When they're just generic cool powers included just for the sake of it then I think it's magic. I've never EVER seen any RPG use them in a worthwhile way.
It doesn't do much for me personally (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/images/9/92/Psychology.pdf), at least I don't feel strongly compelled to play it just from reading it, and it isn't about madness. But it is [potentially] about manipulation and it isn't about magically flinging crap around the room or setting people on fire (well not setting
other people on fire ;) ). The benefits are of the more sutble variety; sharing Skills, sharing knowledge, and reading other people's emotions and motivations. The target character is still protected fairly well (tough to roll Obstacles, limited abilities, have to be physically present with the target) unless the target character/their player
allows the Psychologist in...and there is enough benefit to bait the target to let that to happen.
There is also some risk for the Psychologist's player in that they can end up with their own character's ability itself held hostage, in a metagaming sense (see Breaking the Connection section of page 5 of the PDF).
Another thing I can do without in serious SF is the whole idea of space fighters. I mean, in space with no horizon to pop over or ground to hug, a fighter is a visible target, especially since it has to be putting out a lot of IR. Unless you have magic tech like clkoaks that only work on small targets fighters are just targets to shoot, and a huge ship can carry the weapons to kill fighters at a distance, further than their little weapons can reach, it can carry the detection gear to spot them, the ECM capacity to foul up their targeters, the armor toi resist what shots they can fire, etc.
Space is a totally different environment that a planetart environment, and the facotrs that make fighters viable in planetside conflict don't exist in space. In space a huge battleship really would have all the advantages and a fighrter would have none.
Now, maybe something more akin to a "PT boat" could work, maybe. But single seat fighters really shouldn't I mean, I love BSG but even I admit that for the most part it's space opera and not SF. Now at least in BSG some fighters do cartry nuclear missiles, which makes some sense if you use fighters as delivery systems for capital weapons, but still.....
BTW, 3 cheers for BSG for not making the standard assumption that races will forget how to build nukes when they develop starships.
Traveller has some fighters, but the tech in traveller makes them barely useful, anfd they've be more useful if they could carry nukes.
Still, most fighters in space are nonsense unless you have some really improbable tech.
Quote from: Dominus NoxBTW, 3 cheers for BSG for not making the standard assumption that races will forget how to build nukes when they develop starships.
There are a few things about BSG I really like. Such as the very tactile, ludite sensibilities and a
reason for them. Also it has a relatively low amount of technobabble handwaving. When I first saw the miniseries the fake nuke really hit a sour note for me....and then it made total sense to mey why when I listened to the comentary where the writer fessed up that it was sort of a sarcastic joke that fell flat.
It is also interesting inthecomentary about why they chose nukes. Because they would seem more
real and menacing than some technobabble photon torpedo or such.
Another thing I like is how the tiny human fighters are both relatively short range (no FTL) and how they use jetting nozzles to flip, roll, and pitch more like real spacecraft and don't try to be airplanes banking in space. Too bad the setting/story really dictated that the small Cylon raiders have FTL....although with some careful writing they could have done away with the Raiders being capable of those massive distance jumps.
Too bad they didn't feel they could make work having dead silent space like 2001 (and more recently Firefly) did.
Aliens that speak the Queen's English as a rule. Despite the fact that I love the series overall, Doctor Who was a great offender in this regard (Star Trek slightly less so, but it's still on the list).
Humans as the some pithy, backwater, civilization that fights against all odds to overcome The Great Alien Menace. It's been to death and I'm absolutely sick of it in every possible way.
The Great Alien Menace, actually -- or any other obvious Deus Ex device that can be used to justify any adventure one can imagine, no matter how rediculous it would be otherwise.
Another mark for BSG. Humans are their very own worst enemy up to and including creating the "aliens" that kick their asses and screw with their heads. Although I will say that there are things that are a bit uneven and incoherent at times about how the Cylons are able to operate.
Quote from: blakkieThere are a few things about BSG I really like. Such as the very tactile, ludite sensibilities and a reason for them. Also it has a relatively low amount of technobabble handwaving. When I first saw the miniseries the fake nuke really hit a sour note for me....and then it made total sense to mey why when I listened to the comentary where the writer fessed up that it was sort of a sarcastic joke that fell flat.
It is also interesting inthecomentary about why they chose nukes. Because they would seem more real and menacing than some technobabble photon torpedo or such.
Another thing I like is how the tiny human fighters are both relatively short range (no FTL) and how they use jetting nozzles to flip, roll, and pitch more like real spacecraft and don't try to be airplanes banking in space. Too bad the setting/story really dictated that the small Cylon raiders have FTL....although with some careful writing they could have done away with the Raiders being capable of those massive distance jumps.
Too bad they didn't feel they could make work having dead silent space like 2001 (and more recently Firefly) did.
Um, I agree with most of what you're saying here, but what fake nuke doust thou speakest of in yon miniseries? You mean the tac nuke that galactica survived a hit from? Remember that was no fake, it was real and did a lot of damage to the big G, and if the full spread of 3 that had been launched had hit it would have killed her, but starbuck popped 2 of them first. She was lucky to be hit in a heavily armored section, and still lost a lot of people...
Also remmeber than the blkackbird had an FTL drive.
Oh, waitaminute, by fake nuke do you mean the way apollo used those EM generators onboard colonial one to simulat the EMP of a nuke and screw over the raiders attacking? If those things were like part of a jump engine or something and could normally jump a ship from point to point in the universe, maybe with a little tinkering they could put out a lot of EMP instead. Also recall it was stated that cylon raiders had somewhat limited intelligence (Scar) and therefore could have been fooled by a good trick they weren't programmed for.
Quote from: blakkieAnother mark for BSG. Humans are their very own worst enemy up to and including creating the "aliens" that kick their asses and screw with their heads. Although I will say that there are things that are a bit uneven and incoherent at times.
Yeah, the first 2 seasons were totally excellent, but the third declined. I hope she picks up.
Quote from: Dominus NoxYeah, the first 2 seasons were totally excellent, but the third declined. I hope she picks up.
I've got a
bad feeling they've written themselves into a corner...hope next season's script doesn't include a shark and waterskis. :( The fake nuke is
Spoiler
when Apollo does that wacky "tech magic" with that coil thingy in the cargo hold of Colonial 1 and Cmdr Adama thinks Lee's been killed....also I got the impression that BSG is suppose to be a very long way from Colonial 1 at that point so even having BSG being able to "see" this all happen felt very wrong.
.
EDIT: The blackbird itself has the odor of Selachimorpha and jetboat exhast about it. :(
Quote from: jdrakehAliens that speak the Queen's English as a rule. Despite the fact that I love the series overall, Doctor Who was a great offender in this regard (Star Trek slightly less so, but it's still on the list).
Humans as the some pithy, backwater, civilization that fights against all odds to overcome The Great Alien Menace. It's been to death and I'm absolutely sick of it in every possible way.
The Great Alien Menace, actually -- or any other obvious Deus Ex device that can be used to justify any adventure one can imagine, no matter how rediculous it would be otherwise.
If you'll recall, the tardis translates for those who ntravel in her, it's been stated time to time. Also in one ep when the doc was out of it due to regeneration the translation didn't work.
As to the whole speaking english thing, OK look, if every ep has to go thru learing to speak this weeks aline language, it would get boring quickly.
As to humans being the backwards type who overcome a vast alien empire, as much as I hate shite jackson and his game company in general, I must say that gurps traveller interstellar wars did an excellent job of explaining how something like that could happen by it's history of the terran confederation's war with the first imperium.
Quote from: blakkieI've got a bad feeling they've written themselves into a corner...hope next season's script doesn't include a shark and waterskis. :( The fake nuke is Spoiler
when Apollo does that wacky "tech magic" with that coil thingy in the cargo hold of Colonial 1 and Cmdr Adama thinks Lee's been killed....also I got the impression that BSG is suppose to be a very long way from Colonial 1 at that point so even having BSG being able to "see" this all happen felt very wrong.
Yeah, see my above post I edited after guessing what you meant. hey, like I said, raiders had an animal level of intelligence, the EMP may have fooled them, or maybe it even predetonated their nukes and killed them instead.
Oh, yeah, I forgot mecha.
I hate mecha.
I can't think of a single reason why anyone would build one, since it's screamingly obvious to me that they have zero military utility when compared to other types of combat unit.
I've never played BattleTech, but I'd be willing to bet that, say, $10 billion worth of mecha would be utterly defeated by $10 billion worth of tanks and missile launchers at the same tech level.
Quote from: balzacqOh, yeah, I forgot mecha.
I hate mecha.
I can't think of a single reason why anyone would build one, since it's screamingly obvious to me that they have zero military utility when compared to other types of combat unit.
Dude, they look cool. In some stories, that's all it takes.
Quote from: jgantsI see the use for it - I just think it sucks. I don't like suffering through boring courier missions for months on end until I finally get to the cool stuff.
By which I do not necesarily mean space opera combat fests. I would be equally happy with intergalactic tales of intrigue or scientific exploration.
Dude, that's not a problem with the premise, that's a problem with the GM being shit.
Smack him about the face and head a few dozen times with a copy of the Han Solo Trilogy book until he gets it.
Quote from: J ArcaneSmack him about the face and head a few dozen times with a copy of the Han Solo Trilogy book until he gets it.
I've only read one of those, am reading a second, and they RAWK. Like, "Fonzie Leaves Town" kinda rawk.
Mecha are cool for mecha games, I would never use them in a traveller game. Mecha are pretty much a Sci-Fi genera of their own.
Quote from: RockViperMecha are cool for mecha games, I would never use them in a traveller game. Mecha are pretty much a Sci-Fi genera of their own.
There you go. I was just about to agree that I hate mecha, then I realised that I don't mind mecha when they're confined to their own corner of the playground and don't mix with the other children.
!i!
I put these guys in a V&V game once:
(http://www.dustcatchers.com/gacomics/shogun1.jpg)
Well, I think that small mecha, like battlesuits or even heavy gears, might work.
30-40' hight stuff, forget it.
Another thing I could do without is "fate" or "chosen ones" who are "chosen" by some invisible force to decide the fate of the galaxy.
Andromeda was ruined by that shit.
Quote from: John MorrowHow far (nit-picky) do you go with this, and does it extend to the life on those planets? Does this objection also include moons that couldn't exist (e.g., more than one large one, inside the Roche limit, etc.).
I guess you can say I'm pretty nitpicky. The more I pick up about planetary physics, the less tolerant I am of liberties taken. I'm funny in that my main attraction to SF is exploring a system that might really be out there.
I'm not going to whip out my calculator and check to see if a moon is too close, but obvious things draw my attention will irritate me:
- Small worlds with breathable (or any) atmospheres. There is a pretty sharp lower limit on the mass of a world that will retain an Earth-type mix of gases for any time. Unfortunately, the default Traveller world generation system flubs this one badly. To satisfy myself without reworking lots of world stats, I re-defined Traveller's UPP size digit to be a measure of eighths of Earth mass instead of Earth diameters. This actually works pretty slick and gets in the ballpark for what sorts of atmospheres would really be possible.
- Large (or any) planets around a large star. Did you know that observations show that large stars spin faster than smaller ones? This implies to us that there was not a significant accretion disk for these stars to form sizable star systems from. So systems with dozens of habitable worlds around Rigel a la the Demon Princes books, aren't really practical. At best, there may be some captures bodies.
- Even if there are some worlds in such a system, oxygen bearing worlds are unlikely without extraordinary circumstances. As you may know, large stars burn brighter... and quicker. What you may not realize is that it's much quicker, so much so that the star would burn through it's life cycle before the world could evolve into an oxygen-bearing one.
- Habitable planets in a system with a white dwarf. Unless the white dwarf is an extremely remote companion, the outgassing of the star as it becomes a white dwarf would strip worlds of their atmospheres.
QuoteWhat, in particular bothers you about this? Technically, Firefly/Serenity take place in one system, as does Starhunter & Starhunter 2300, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Total Recall, etc. Does it bother you there or just in your RPGs?
I just see more possibilities where I can picture multiple habitable worlds. The Serenity thing bugs me for multiple reasons. I see a pretty finite limit on what terraforming can do, and don't see sneaking around the same solar system undetected and out of radio contact as the Serenity often appears to do.
I find it makes the show more watchable to me if I picture it really taking place in some close cluster of stars or something. ;)
QuoteI just see more possibilities where I can picture multiple habitable worlds. The Serenity thing bugs me for multiple reasons. I see a pretty finite limit on what terraforming can do, and don't see sneaking around the same solar system undetected and out of radio contact as the Serenity often appears to do.
I find it makes the show more watchable to me if I picture it really taking place in some close cluster of stars or something.
You know, I honestly think the series makes a lot more sense if you look at it as multiple systems in relatively close proximity, just because there isn't much sense to the worlds' closeness to each other, excepting that somehow, almost all of them but one have pretty healthy amounts of sunlight.
You ever notice that? I realize it's partly to keep in the whole "space western" theme, but it seems like every world they go to, save that one frozen rock, has a lot of sun exposure.
There's no way that'd really happen in a single system scenario, unless they're all somehow in Earth orbit, which means a planet in Earth's rough position relative to the sun, with a hell of a lot of moons. Which isn't really possible, at least as I understand the nature of how star systems form.
I don't know if 'energy beings' are possible or not, but I could do with fewer 'energy beings" in my SF.
Likewise, corporeal creatures that 'feed on energy" are on the implausible thing. Yes, yes we know that plants can in a way feed on sunlight, yes yes, but that's a long way from feeding on other forms of energy, or absorbing electricity, radiation, etc.
I dislike uncontentious claims of moral superiority without good arguments supporting them (the "space elf" syndrome). I also dislike the "Planet of Hats", where every member of an intelligent species has certain personality traits. I hate legitimate prophecies in a world without magic, which another poster brought up first, though that's not confined to sci-fi. And I dislike licensed properties.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I can roll with a lot of stuff in SF, but I'm not into psionics in my Trav games. Just not my thing.
I really don't like cross-license pollination. Keep your goddamned Klingons outta my Star Wars game or I swear I will punch you in the ass.
Er, you can have Kling- uh, Klengons in my Encounter Critical game, though, becuse DUH.
DR R.,
As someone that used to be VERY involved with TREK fandom I agree with what you're saying. I hate "universe -mixing" (or license-pollution, as you put it)
One of the reasons I enjoy the TRAVELLER universe is because there is no connection to a movie or TV series. Also no damn subspace radio or B5-style "hyperelink". I like intersteller communication being as slow as the fastest starship.
- E.W.C.
Quote from: PseudoephedrineI dislike uncontentious claims of moral superiority without good arguments supporting them (the "space elf" syndrome). I also dislike the "Planet of Hats", where every member of an intelligent species has certain personality traits. I hate legitimate prophecies in a world without magic, which another poster brought up first, though that's not confined to sci-fi. And I dislike licensed properties.
Hmm, can't say i agree re licensced properties. I dislike badly done Lps, sure, but I coulod like a welldone one, and hope some are, like honor harrington.
Licensed properties just don't interest me. They always seem like they're trying to recreate the experience of reading or watching the original product and never quite succeeding. Since they can't do it, I'd rather just have a new experience with a new world that I can more fully determine the shape of.
Quote from: PseudoephedrineLicensed properties just don't interest me. They always seem like they're trying to recreate the experience of reading or watching the original product and never quite succeeding. Since they can't do it, I'd rather just have a new experience with a new world that I can more fully determine the shape of.
LPs do have some problems, I agree. Let me give you an example: When asked how fast a starfury fighter traveller in babylon 5, the series creator, strackzynski, said with a straight face "They travel at the speed of plot".
Now I can just imagine JMS in his office and his secretary pages him, saying "Sir, there's a man here about the B5 rpg. He says that "speed of plot" just won't cut it for a game statistic. What should I tell him?"
Hmm - this is quite an education. Seems like whatever I do I'll piss someone off.
:D
-clash
Quote from: Dominus NoxWell, I think that small mecha, like battlesuits or even heavy gears, might work.
30-40' hight stuff, forget it.
I have to agree with you on this. Things like the battle suits out of the old Exo-Squad cartoon would have uses. Also the Dreadnoughts from Warhammer 40K are seeable. Plus Masamune Shirow does a lot of art for 'Landmate' battle armor that are also beliavable to some extent.
Those are the examples I can think of right now.
Quote from: flyingmiceHmm - this is quite an education. Seems like whatever I do I'll piss someone off.
Fuck 'em all, clash. Set a
real challenge for yourself. Make a game that will piss
everyone off.
!i!
[Edit: Wait. Is there already a game that pisses everyone off? One that combines every element we've already mentioned? Teleportation, fighter squads, pseudo-scientific magic, mecha, near-instantaneous interplanetary travel, zipper-costumed aliens, bumpy-headed humans, etc. Sounds more than a bit like -- dare I say it? --
Exalted. Wrong genre, but right on the money -- something for
everyone to hate.]
The problem with liscenced properties is that a story has very different needs than a game. Most stories only detail the world around the protagonists and everything else is very thin if mentioned at all. Roleplaying games need comprehensive, coherent settings that can be driven by player choice and random chance, where stories are all about plot advancement.
What do I hate in sf? Inconsistancy...I can live with bad science...I can live with guys in dog suits, heck the Tulgar from Spacemaster Privateers are about the only alien race I ever actually wanted to play...I can live with 2d maps and ship battles...but boy do I hate it when things that happened two weeks ago are swept under the rug in the name of plot advancement.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaFuck 'em all, clash. Set a real challenge for yourself. Make a game that will piss everyone off.
!i!
I think I did. :D
-clash
Don´t forget there´s a lot of jaded gamers here. I´d rather not listen to them.
If it makes you go "WoW!" chances are that it does so for other people too.
Quote from: flyingmiceHmm - this is quite an education. Seems like whatever I do I'll piss someone off.
:D
-clash
Well if your next avatar is not connected with your
Great Game* setting...
*Which has nothin' really to do with this discussion :D
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RWell if your next avatar is not connected with your Great Game* setting...
*Which has nothin' really to do with this discussion :D
Regards,
David R
Hehe! Soon come, as they say in Jamaica!
-clash
Yes, its called RIFTS.
Quote from: Ian Absentia[Edit: Wait. Is there already a game that pisses everyone off? One that combines every element we've already mentioned? Teleportation, fighter squads, pseudo-scientific magic, mecha, near-instantaneous interplanetary travel, zipper-costumed aliens, bumpy-headed humans, etc. Sounds more than a bit like -- dare I say it? -- Exalted. Wrong genre, but right on the money -- something for everyone to hate.]
Quote from: RockViperYes, its called RIFTS.
Everything that makes it so, so wrong as SF, makes it so, so fun a game to play.
I agree plasma swords, cat girls, and giant robots :combust:
Quote from: JamesVEverything that makes it so, so wrong as SF, makes it so, so fun a game to play.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaExplain please.
This is a multi-layered thing. I shall separate for clarity.
Big Picture: I am opposed to conceptions of the universe that argue against humanity's ability to learn how it works and thereby take increasingly greater control over it.
Playability: A game where humans are not performing useful work is a game where there are no playable adventure scenarios, and thus is useless for RPGs. (So no AIs controling things that PCs ought to be controlling, etc.)
(Not Related: I also don't like other genres wearing SF drag. If I can strip out the SF elements of a story and still have it work, then it's not SF and thus must be kicked to the curb as it doesn't belong.)
Prophecies.
Now something lkike what Asimov did in the foundation series, that's just on the edge of acceptable AFAIC, partially out of love for good old Isaac and because ruling out the foundation series is unthinkable.
But religious/mystical prophecies, fuhgedduboudit!
Also I could do with less "balonium": Impossible elements that do impossible things. Now, it is quite possible for stable transuranics to exist at various "islands of stability" on the periodic table, and it's possible that it takes such a powerful supernova to produce these transuranics that none have been found in the terran system, but keep them and what they do plausible.
An example could be dilithium crystals. Now in ToS they worked by taking the output of mantter/antimatter reactions, which was pure high energy photons, and converting it to a laser type beam at ultra high efficiency. Essentially dilithium crystals acted as efficient converters of incoherent light into a laser type beam that could be cohtrolled, directed, channeled, split, etc.
Also even at high efficiency they got hot as hell, hence the need for cooling systems. Ok, that was plausible ansd worked with the technology in trek, it also explained why phaser pistols had small dilithium cells in them on the original plans.
Unfortunately, when rick vermin took over he decided to piss on the established canon and redid dilithium as the only element in the universe that could be touched by antimatter and not destroyed by a reaction, hence they were used as antimatter regulators. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!
All in all, I'd rather not have weird elements as mcguffins, but if they are used I'd like to see them kept plausible. Rare, exotic ahd hard to synthesize organic compounds might be better as mcguffins than "Balonium ore" or something like that.
Quote from: balzacqAnachronisms -- too many references to modern Earth history thousands of years in the future (sorry, Koltar, I don't think Maggie Thatcher is even going to be a footnote in three thousand years).
No need to apologize - everybody's campaign version of the
TRAVELLER universe is a little bit different. in the
G:T book
FAR TRADER the author gives the examples of :
Elizabeth ,
Hatshepsut,
Maria Theresa ,
Wu ...etc.
I figured - well if they know about Hatshepsut , then Thatcher is possible. Plus, I liked the humor possibilities of using that name. Also wanted it to be a woman that NONE of the people in my group would've had the chance to vote for or in the future have a shot at voting for.
One thing I 'hate" in Science Fiction books and gmes is military terms and structure that too closely resemble the American or British military.
Nothing against either of them...but with both alien cultures and far future ones the choices for that sort of thing should be radically different than what we normally recognize.
- E.W.C.
Quote from: KoltarOne thing I 'hate" in Science Fiction books and gmes is military terms and structure that too closely resemble the American or British military.
Nothing against either of them...but with both alien cultures and far future ones the choices for that sort of thing should be radically different than what we normally recognize.
"I am Lunesta, Prilosec-Valtrex of the Enzytes!"
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!"I am Lunesta, Prilosec-Valtrex of the Enzytes!"
The Enzytes?
Smiling Bob has to be in that platoon-equivalent somewhere.
- E.W.C.
Quote from: blakkieToo bad they didn't feel they could make work having dead silent space like 2001 (and more recently Firefly) did.
It seems like that was a stylistic decision. I think it works for BSG - the sound is there in space, but it's muffled in a way that makes it. . . BSG I guess. I did enjoy the silence in Firefly. The SO maintains that I shed a tear the first time it demonstrated that space was silent.
But BSG wouldn't be quite the same without the muffled thumpathumpathumpa of the BSG guns firing.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!"I am Lunesta, Prilosec-Valtrex of the Enzytes!"
You are mad, Rotwang, magnificently, gloriously mad.
:D
-clash
Quote from: danzig138It seems like that was a stylistic decision. I think it works for BSG - the sound is there in space, but it's muffled in a way that makes it. . . BSG I guess. I did enjoy the silence in Firefly. The SO maintains that I shed a tear the first time it demonstrated that space was silent.
But BSG wouldn't be quite the same without the muffled thumpathumpathumpa of the BSG guns firing.
I hadn't even noticed that.
The modern
BSG does seem to play it pretty "silent" during the space scenes it seems. The only thing I've noticed is background music and radio chatter between spacecraft in those scenes.
- E.W.C.
Quote from: flyingmiceYou are mad, Rotwand, magnificently, gloriously mad.
:D
-clash
I gotcher six, me heartie.
Quote from: Dominus NoxIf you'll recall, the tardis translates for those who ntravel in her, it's been stated time to time. Also in one ep when the doc was out of it due to regeneration the translation didn't work.
Doctor Who continuity is a mess as it routinely contradicts itself (e.g. Temporal Grace, etc). Which is part of its charm, but also why arguments like the one that you just made mean very little ;)
QuoteAs to the whole speaking english thing, OK look, if every ep has to go thru learing to speak this weeks aline language, it would get boring quickly.
Agreed, but this isn't necessarily a barrier in RPGs. In television yes, hence, I don't have a huge problem with it there -- in RPGs I hate it.
QuoteAs to humans being the backwards type who overcome a vast alien empire, as much as I hate shite jackson and his game company in general, I must say that gurps traveller interstellar wars did an excellent job of explaining how something like that could happen by it's history of the terran confederation's war with the first imperium.
That's an exception to the rule. Most RPGs just cornhole humanity by default because designers lack imagination.
Quote from: KoltarDR R.,
As someone that used to be VERY involved with TREK fandom I agree with what you're saying. I hate "universe -mixing" (or license-pollution, as you put it)
No,
meng, sross-
pollination. Pollution's not the word I'd use.
HATE "Beaming" or "transporter/teleporter" technology in Sci-Fi roleplaying games. Its an easy story out for the players and a pain in the Ass for a GM.
I've had to deal with them in STAR TREK the RPG ...and they always bothered me.
- E.W.C.
Well, at least you aren't defaming vincent price anymore.....
Quote from: KoltarHATE "Beaming" or "transporter/teleporter" technology in Sci-Fi roleplaying games. Its an easy story out for the players and a pain in the Ass for a GM.
I've had to deal with them in STAR TREK the RPG ...and they always bothered me.
- E.W.C.
Honestly, take just about any Star Trek tech and it is a pain, a game killer. I love Trek but I really believe it is unplayable except as a group think sort of game. Any system/setting that has easy disintegration/escape mechanism/weapon delivery/duplication technology combined with hand weapons capable of leveling buildings...several times, is ripe for abuse. Through in force field troops/expendables (Holodeck scrubs who can be sent to die) and your crew sits around waiting to die of high cholesterol.
Meh. I prefer something more like Traveller.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltHonestly, take just about any Star Trek tech and it is a pain, a game killer. I love Trek but I really believe it is unplayable except as a group think sort of game. Any system/setting that has easy disintegration/escape mechanism/weapon delivery/duplication technology combined with hand weapons capable of leveling buildings...several times, is ripe for abuse. Through in force field troops/expendables (Holodeck scrubs who can be sent to die) and your crew sits around waiting to die of high cholesterol.
Meh. I prefer something more like Traveller.
Bill
Well, the interesting part comes when you realize the other guys have all that tech too.
Quote from: KoltarHATE "Beaming" or "transporter/teleporter" technology in Sci-Fi roleplaying games. Its an easy story out for the players and a pain in the Ass for a GM.
I've had to deal with them in STAR TREK the RPG ...and they always bothered me.
- E.W.C.
There's beaming in StarCluster, but you need a willing receiver as well as a transmitter, and every time you use it, you lose a random number of skill levels - at least one.
-clash
Quote from: Dominus NoxWell, the interesting part comes when you realize the other guys have all that tech too.
Absolutely no argument. The point is, though, that it is 100% effective technology. In a setting populated by truly bloodthirsty Klingons and Romulans how the hell would the Federation stand a chance? Even if you say the players are all restricted to the Fed and bound by codes of decency, the enemies aren't. How long before the PCs are on an away mission and find a 40 ton rock materialize above them or have their hearts beamed out of them?
Like I said, I love the series but just do not see it as a viable RPG. Heck, I think Star Wars is more viable...just less sci-fi. ;)
Bill
They had to break the transporter for almost every episode, just to create a dangerous situation for the crew. :hehe:
Quote from: KoltarHATE "Beaming" or "transporter/teleporter" technology in Sci-Fi roleplaying games. Its an easy story out for the players and a pain in the Ass for a GM.
I've had to deal with them in STAR TREK the RPG ...and they always bothered me.
- E.W.C.
Quote from: HinterWeltAbsolutely no argument. The point is, though, that it is 100% effective technology. In a setting populated by truly bloodthirsty Klingons and Romulans how the hell would the Federation stand a chance? Even if you say the players are all restricted to the Fed and bound by codes of decency, the enemies aren't. How long before the PCs are on an away mission and find a 40 ton rock materialize above them or have their hearts beamed out of them?
Like I said, I love the series but just do not see it as a viable RPG. Heck, I think Star Wars is more viable...just less sci-fi. ;)
Bill
America beat the soviets by having a better, stronger economy that could outproduce them, and a freer culture that encouraged advancement.
Look at how many soviets defected to america vs. the numbers of americans defecting to the sov side.
Also, the klingons may have had a lot of technology, but it wasn't as advanced as te feds, like the soviet tech was always behind the west's.
Quote from: Dominus NoxAmerica beat the soviets by having a better, stronger economy that could outproduce them, and a freer culture that encouraged advancement.
Look at how many soviets defected to america vs. the numbers of americans defecting to the sov side.
Also, the klingons may have had a lot of technology, but it wasn't as advanced as te feds, like the soviet tech was always behind the west's.
Which is all fine on the macro-economic front but the Klingons still have transporters and hand held weapons of doom. The Feds may win in the end but your character is going to take it up the pooper.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltWhich is all fine on the macro-economic front but the Klingons still have transporters and hand held weapons of doom. The Feds may win in the end but your character is going to take it up the pooper.
Bill
Klingon disruptors were inferior to federation phasers, and klingon ships were, one on one, inferior to federation ships. The feds had better tech and a bigger economy to support starfleet, plus the klingons had to spend a lot of their time and resources spying on each other.
Barring an advantage, like a sabotaged fed ship or a sneak attack, the klingons really couldn't win an engagement with the feds.
Plus klingons were just total losers all around, just look at the kind of imitators they attract.
Quote from: HinterWeltWhich is all fine on the macro-economic front but the Klingons still have transporters and hand held weapons of doom. The Feds may win in the end but your character is going to take it up the pooper.
Bill
What a colorful phrase you chose!!
When I used to run the FASA version STAR TREK RPG I was very sparing with when Klingons would show up. Had one group that actually started to have a recurring Klingon Adversary show up in their patrol area.
Loved how in the books - the Klingons actually invented the transporter device before the Federation did.
But yeah ... started to hate "TREK-Tech" in my RPGs. I much prefer the
TRAVELLER universe kind of technology, where its mostly believable stuff and the FTL travel has a slow side to it.
- E.W.C.
Quote from: Dominus NoxKlingon disruptors were inferior to federation phasers, and klingon ships were, one on one, inferior to federation ships. The feds had better tech and a bigger economy to support starfleet, plus the klingons had to spend a lot of their time and resources spying on each other.
Barring an advantage, like a sabotaged fed ship or a sneak attack, the klingons really couldn't win an engagement with the feds.
Plus klingons were just total losers all around, just look at the kind of imitators they attract.
hmm, not sure if we are talking about the same thing. I am mostly going from LUG Trek and Decipher Trek. In those books, disruptors were about 1/2 power of the phasers...which meant they could only create half as big a crater where your characters were standing. They still had replicators and transporters. Now, bring Romulans into the argument and things get interesting since they have a good deal of the same tech as the Feds.
Besides, I think the point is getting lost here. Just looking at what the players have to solve challenges, they only need to resort to diplomacy rarely. Mind you, most gamers rip the setting apart because they are approaching it with a problem solving mentality and not a "I will advance the Plot" mentality (most of the time). Whenever I have heard of a "successful" Trek game it has usually been from a "We will create an artificial consensus to do as the story dictates" instead of "I played the game, in setting, and did what I thought was smart" approach. I may not be clear here but I am trying to say that if everyone agrees that the transporter will not be used to make copies of our strongest character who will then be sent to fight the hordes, then yes, it can work. The problem is, players are smart and like to game the system/setting. They, generally, do not wish to not use something to death that has worked in the past. With "science" it should work every time and that makes a problem. If I focus the lateral sensor arrays through the main deflector to detect the cloaked Romulan then it better work the next time I try or I will be pissed.
However, as I said, I love the series, just not the RPGs.
Bill
Bill
Quote from: KoltarBut yeah ... started to hate "TREK-Tech" in my RPGs. I much prefer the TRAVELLER universe kind of technology, where its mostly believable stuff and the FTL travel has a slow side to it.
- E.W.C.
Thing is, though, Traveller tech isn't all that realistic, either, but from another angle. The setting is how many thousands of years in the future, and the tech isn't all that much beyond what we have now? Take medical technology as an example. Not a whole helluva lot seems to have been done in the areas of genetic engineering or increasing human longevity. Even placing Traveller into the context of when it was written, the mid to late 1970s, there are examples of scifi that dealt with the implications of both. In that respect, I don't see Traveller as all that realistic. Same goes for Trek - given the medical miracles we see done in every iteration of Trek, somehow the human lifespan is still essentially the same.
I'm inclined to view technology in scifi games as being backward in many cases, especially considering how far into the future we're talking. Yeah, so, transporters and the like are game-balance-killers. I'd rather try to deal with the implications of that and figure out an in-game solution that fits the setting than to assume that tech progress stagnates in certain areas just because I don't like the implication for the game.
Writing by game designers who haven't done their research in science or technology. First, this is science fiction, there has to be a middle ground between total realism and complete fantasy - go one way and Earthlike planets become nearly impossible while if you go the other way you get things like this quote from d20 Future.
QuoteBLACKLASER (PL 9)
Using the fluorescent gaseous form of dark matter, a blacklaser fires a beam of coherent light. To human eyes, it appears to be a beam of purplish light bordering on ultraviolet, but it is composed of radiation much more energetic and dangerous than ordinary photons.
My brain hurts every time I read that because whoever wrote it doesn't have a clue what dark matter is theorized to be or even how the word "flourescent" wouldn't apply to it.
I don't generally like magic in my sci fi, but I don't mind psionics, the force, or Spacemaster's handling of the Rolemaster planet. I guess I'm pretty inconsistent with my dislikes.