Maybe I don't read enough modern modules, but I was surprised to see something to this effect. Here is the text introducing an NPC description:
"She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google Search."
My immediate response to reading this is that is some lazy and unprofessional writing. That said, I don't buy a lot of modules. Would this put you off? What if you hired someone to write a module for your game system and they submitted this?
My initial response would be similar to yours, but verbally describing someone is tough, in this day and age it's trivial to do a search, and she does have a very distinctive look. It's a concise way to convey information, and it also gives more agency to the GM, because instead of having to remember a long list of physical characteristics (round face, close-set eyes, etc...) or focusing on a single notable trait, the GM can look a photo of her and describe her however they want.
Quote from: Lynn on May 18, 2021, 11:44:37 AM
Maybe I don't read enough modern modules, but I was surprised to see something to this effect. Here is the text introducing an NPC description:
"She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google Search."
My immediate response to reading this is that is some lazy and unprofessional writing. That said, I don't buy a lot of modules. Would this put you off? What if you hired someone to write a module for your game system and they submitted this?
That particular one? Google doesn't even give any reasonable search responses. It seems to think it means Big Barda from DC Comics? Is this a DC comics module but they can't actually have an image of Big Barda for some reason?
Maybe searching for Thera Bara (Arab Death) will give better results.
She appeared IIRC in one of the first CoC scenarios as an NPC; at least that's where I heard the name first, in the 80's, and had to make up my own image of her for lack of a proper Search Engine at the time.
Edit: replaced with a smaller image
(https://www.latimes.com/includes/projects/hollywood/portraits/theda_bara.jpg)
Was: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/29/a5/16/29a516940181d725896cf98e3a41281d.jpg
If it said, "Theda Bara" I'd know who they meant. Adding a note that she was a Silent Era movie star who played vamps would be useful.
Seems lazy to me. Some description might help.
Also, being so old, I doubt there is any copyright infringement worries.
The module creator could have just grabbed a pic and thrown it in, without really needing to reference her at all: a picture says a thousand words and all that.
If I paid money for that module, I would be rather upset. This is why I check out rpg products before I pay money for them. I got hosed on a few purchases back in the day.
Is it really too much to include a picture?
So not only is the description lazy, it's also condescending. This is what happens when people have access to professional-level production systems for literally pennies instead of having to mimeograph their zines after hours in the school library.
I would have fucked that one up, and given a description of Big Barda.
QuoteMaybe I don't read enough modern modules, but I was surprised to see something to this effect. Here is the text introducing an NPC description:
"She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google Search."
My immediate response to reading this is that is some lazy and unprofessional writing. That said, I don't buy a lot of modules. Would this put you off?
It's lazy, condescending and unprofessional. No question.
QuoteWhat if you hired someone to write a module for your game system and they submitted this?
As a publisher, they'd be getting a stern rebuke for such lazy, condescending and unprofessional writing, and would be told in no uncertain terms to provide a proper, usable description. If they refused, they'd be fired from the project.
If you're trying to make your way as a writer of any kind, the ability to describe and communicate that description is fundamental. Telling the reader to go and look up a description on the internet is as piss-poor as it gets, and is tantamount to the author saying "You don't know as much as I do, and I can't be bothered imparting a description. It's
your fault you don't know who I'm referring to, so you should go away and educated yourself because frankly it's beneath me."
Ok, that makes it clearer, thanks Godfather Punk. And sure, this description was not the best, but I mean, what do we want here? Do we want paragraphs of purple prose and super long adventure modules? Or do we want something shorter and usable without a bunch of unnecessary detail? Here is the physical description of the head priest in the Caves of Chaos from Keep on the Borderlands:
That's right, absolutely nothing. Not even a picture either. The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh had a more mystery-driven approach to D&D adventuring, and the NPCs here have names at least, but physical descriptions only ever mention their armor/clothing, weapons, magic items and valuables. The exception might be 'Foul' Frithoff, for him we at least get that he only has one hand and the other has been replaced by a hook, and that he wears an earring.
A bit more detail can be found in N5 Under Illefarn in the late 80s, but it isn't much. "Kelson Darktreader is only beginning to get some silver hairs among the gold which have adorned his head since his youth." That's it for Kelson's appearance (but there's a drawing of him at least), and that's pretty much the maximum level of detail about their appearance any of the important NPCs in the module have. Most have less. How much do we really need?
Giving the GM freedom to describe the characters as desired is fine too.
Quote from: Lynn on May 18, 2021, 11:44:37 AM
Maybe I don't read enough modern modules, but I was surprised to see something to this effect. Here is the text introducing an NPC description:
"She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google Search."
My immediate response to reading this is that is some lazy and unprofessional writing. That said, I don't buy a lot of modules. Would this put you off? What if you hired someone to write a module for your game system and they submitted this?
For a published adventure, if they were concerned about conveying what the NPC looks like, they should have paid an artist to do an illustration.
This just smacks of both laziness and cheapness.
Quote from: Godfather Punk on May 18, 2021, 12:55:31 PM
Maybe searching for Thera Bara (Arab Death) will give better results.
She appeared IIRC in one of the first CoC scenarios as an NPC; at least that's where I heard the name first, in the 80's, and had to make up my own image of her for lack of a proper Search Engine at the time....
(after some research) No wonder I remember her name: it was the very first White Dwarf I bought (#79), in the scenario Ghost Jackal Kill. This was at a time WD was mostly an rpg magazine, of course, and as I was quite new to the hobby and Cthulhu, I must have read it cover-to-cover. It didn't have a picture nor description, but then the author didn't have to say 'look her up in the library' or something; we were used to doing our own homework.
The full text from that module isn't actually as bad as the OP makes it look.
QuoteWho is August?
She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google search. Dark hair, dark eyes, pale skin. Her hair tumbles over her shoulders like storm clouds. She has the kind of beauty that is truly striking. That is, you look into her eyes and you lose any and all eloquence and grace. Anything you can think to say or do seems wrong. She's that kind of woman.
But she doesn't need to be. In fact, she could be a blonde bombshell. Or she may not even be a woman. I'm using August because she fits the cliche. She screams vampire. You can make August any way you want. Think about your players. Think about someone that's on their "list." You know, the list of people their significant others would give the okay to if they had the chance. You know your players. As far as I know, she could be a cute, geeky red head. Tailor August to their desires.
Jesus, ok, that isn't bad at all actually. Like, "she can be anything you want" is maybe unnecessary to point out, but sometimes it needs to be repeated I guess.
If the appearance is important, include a picture.
I think more effective descriptions of NPCs are focused on how DMs should portray characters: "He is disheveled, his hair flying every which way, his glasses hang off of his nose, and he always seems to be fidgeting with something and checking his pocketwatch absentmindedly." -- Okay, that's a description I can roleplay.
Whereas a description such as: "He stands 6ft tall, 160lbs, with brown hair and a wiry frame" -- This type of literal description might be good if I were trying to describe a man for a police lineup. However, as the GM I'm looking for easy hooks I can act out to communicate character to a bunch of absentminded players.
Quote from: rgalex on May 18, 2021, 05:28:23 PM
The full text from that module isn't actually as bad as the OP makes it look.
QuoteWho is August?
She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google search. Dark hair...
OK, so the typo is in the module. I find that worse than the missing description.
Quote from: rgalex on May 18, 2021, 05:28:23 PM
The full text from that module isn't actually as bad as the OP makes it look.
QuoteWho is August?
She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google search. Dark hair, dark eyes, pale skin. Her hair tumbles over her shoulders like storm clouds. She has the kind of beauty that is truly striking. That is, you look into her eyes and you lose any and all eloquence and grace. Anything you can think to say or do seems wrong. She's that kind of woman.
But she doesn't need to be. In fact, she could be a blonde bombshell. Or she may not even be a woman. I'm using August because she fits the cliche. She screams vampire. You can make August any way you want. Think about your players. Think about someone that's on their "list." You know, the list of people their significant others would give the okay to if they had the chance. You know your players. As far as I know, she could be a cute, geeky red head. Tailor August to their desires.
Reads like some Siembeida writing.
"Hey, whatup guys? I'm gonna talk about realism and stopping power in RPG gun rules because I can, Nyah!"
Quote from: Godfather Punk on May 18, 2021, 05:38:41 PM
Quote from: rgalex on May 18, 2021, 05:28:23 PM
The full text from that module isn't actually as bad as the OP makes it look.
QuoteWho is August?
She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google search. Dark hair...
OK, so the typo is in the module. I find that worse than the missing description.
Nope. That's me being stupid. :(
The text from the module didn't all copy due to formatting (font problems or something) and I just cut and pasted the name from above. It is actually correct in the original text.
In case anyone is wondering, the adventure is August Kisses for Tiny Cthulhu and was written by John Wick.
I agree. Having the full context of the description shows that the author wasn't being condescending or unprofessional. I retract my earlier comments.
Context is key.
Quote from: Lynn on May 18, 2021, 11:44:37 AM
Maybe I don't read enough modern modules, but I was surprised to see something to this effect. Here is the text introducing an NPC description:
"She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google Search."
My immediate response to reading this is that is some lazy and unprofessional writing. That said, I don't buy a lot of modules. Would this put you off? What if you hired someone to write a module for your game system and they submitted this?
it ain't good writing, but i would have ignored their description anyway so what the fuck ever i guess.
Quote from: Lynn on May 18, 2021, 11:44:37 AMMy immediate response to reading this is that is some lazy and unprofessional writing.
It is. I would also note that Theda Bara's images are all in the public domain, so the writer could have just put one in there. So it's doubly lazy.
QuoteHer hair tumbles over her shoulders like storm clouds.
This was the most offensive part.
Quote from: rgalex on May 18, 2021, 05:28:23 PM
The full text from that module isn't actually as bad as the OP makes it look.
QuoteWho is August?
She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google search. Dark hair, dark eyes, pale skin. Her hair tumbles over her shoulders like storm clouds. She has the kind of beauty that is truly striking. That is, you look into her eyes and you lose any and all eloquence and grace. Anything you can think to say or do seems wrong. She's that kind of woman.
But she doesn't need to be. In fact, she could be a blonde bombshell. Or she may not even be a woman. I'm using August because she fits the cliche. She screams vampire. You can make August any way you want. Think about your players. Think about someone that's on their "list." You know, the list of people their significant others would give the okay to if they had the chance. You know your players. As far as I know, she could be a cute, geeky red head. Tailor August to their desires.
Yes, there was additional material. However I think 'Do a Google Search..." is taking the conversational tone too far.
Quote from: Blankman on May 18, 2021, 12:47:55 PM
Quote from: Lynn on May 18, 2021, 11:44:37 AM
Maybe I don't read enough modern modules, but I was surprised to see something to this effect. Here is the text introducing an NPC description:
"She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google Search."
My immediate response to reading this is that is some lazy and unprofessional writing. That said, I don't buy a lot of modules. Would this put you off? What if you hired someone to write a module for your game system and they submitted this?
That particular one? Google doesn't even give any reasonable search responses. It seems to think it means Big Barda from DC Comics? Is this a DC comics module but they can't actually have an image of Big Barda for some reason?
I was referring to the first hit on DuckDucKGo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theda_Bara
Specifically this pic, which is striking:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Theda_Bara_1921_Orval_Hixon.jpg)
Interesting that DDG returned a better result than Google.
Quote from: Pat on May 18, 2021, 10:04:35 PM
Quote from: Blankman on May 18, 2021, 12:47:55 PM
Quote from: Lynn on May 18, 2021, 11:44:37 AM
Maybe I don't read enough modern modules, but I was surprised to see something to this effect. Here is the text introducing an NPC description:
"She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google Search."
My immediate response to reading this is that is some lazy and unprofessional writing. That said, I don't buy a lot of modules. Would this put you off? What if you hired someone to write a module for your game system and they submitted this?
That particular one? Google doesn't even give any reasonable search responses. It seems to think it means Big Barda from DC Comics? Is this a DC comics module but they can't actually have an image of Big Barda for some reason?
I was referring to the first hit on DuckDucKGo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theda_Bara
Specifically this pic, which is striking:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Theda_Bara_1921_Orval_Hixon.jpg)
Interesting that DDG returned a better result than Google.
Well, DuckDuckGo seems to have refused to search for what I asked for and instead something similar, as it is only showing results for Theda Bara and not Theda Barda. Now Theda Bara was in this context correct, as Theda Barda was a misspelling introduced by the OP, but I hate it when search engines do that, because too often I was searching for some specific thing and it gives me a bunch of shit that I wasn't asking for that obscures what I wanted to find because it assumes I'm an idiot who can't spell.
Quote from: rgalex on May 18, 2021, 05:28:23 PMQuoteWho is August?
She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google search. Dark hair, dark eyes, pale skin. Her hair tumbles over her shoulders like storm clouds. She has the kind of beauty that is truly striking. That is, you look into her eyes and you lose any and all eloquence and grace. Anything you can think to say or do seems wrong. She's that kind of woman.
But she doesn't need to be. In fact, she could be a blonde bombshell. Or she may not even be a woman. I'm using August because she fits the cliche. She screams vampire. You can make August any way you want. Think about your players. Think about someone that's on their "list." You know, the list of people their significant others would give the okay to if they had the chance. You know your players. As far as I know, she could be a cute, geeky red head. Tailor August to their desires.
This text is making ridiculous assumptions about the thirstiness of the players and the openness of their relationships. I wouldn't want to play in a group run by whoever wrote this crap. And how do you "tailor" her to the players' desires unless every player likes the same thing? The "do a google search" is the least worst part of the entire description.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 19, 2021, 11:45:50 AM
Quote from: rgalex on May 18, 2021, 05:28:23 PMQuoteWho is August?
She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google search. Dark hair, dark eyes, pale skin. Her hair tumbles over her shoulders like storm clouds. She has the kind of beauty that is truly striking. That is, you look into her eyes and you lose any and all eloquence and grace. Anything you can think to say or do seems wrong. She's that kind of woman.
But she doesn't need to be. In fact, she could be a blonde bombshell. Or she may not even be a woman. I'm using August because she fits the cliche. She screams vampire. You can make August any way you want. Think about your players. Think about someone that's on their "list." You know, the list of people their significant others would give the okay to if they had the chance. You know your players. As far as I know, she could be a cute, geeky red head. Tailor August to their desires.
This text is making ridiculous assumptions about the thirstiness of the players and the openness of their relationships. I wouldn't want to play in a group run by whoever wrote this crap. And how do you "tailor" her to the players' desires unless every player likes the same thing? The "do a google search" is the least worst part of the entire description.
What product is this garbage from?
Quote from: rgalex on May 18, 2021, 06:07:50 PM
In case anyone is wondering, the adventure is August Kisses for Tiny Cthulhu and was written by John Wick.
Was it too difficult to read to the end of the thread before asking a question already answered only a few posts below the one you quoted?
Quote from: Blankman on May 19, 2021, 11:53:05 AMWas it too difficult to read to the end of the thread before asking a question already answered only a few posts below the one you quoted?
That's what I get for clicking Quote and not finishing my post until three hours later.
Quote from: rgalex on May 18, 2021, 06:07:50 PM
In case anyone is wondering, the adventure is August Kisses for Tiny Cthulhu and was written by John Wick.
If I learned one thing from 7th Sea 2nd edition it is that John Wick is a terrible writer.
Quote from: KingCheops on May 19, 2021, 12:15:50 PM
If I learned one thing from 7th Sea 2nd edition it is that John Wick is a terrible writer.
I read his "Play Dirty." I didn't notice bad writing. What I learned is John Wick is a self-important dick who I don't want GMing any game I'm in. The kindest interpretation I could put on what he wrote was that he was intentionally trolling to generate outrage interest in his column. Hopefully he's grown up some since then.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 19, 2021, 11:58:20 AM
Quote from: Blankman on May 19, 2021, 11:53:05 AMWas it too difficult to read to the end of the thread before asking a question already answered only a few posts below the one you quoted?
That's what I get for clicking Quote and not finishing my post until three hours later.
Yeah, that's always going to leave you open to your questions having already been answered when you finally post.
Quote from: rgalex on May 18, 2021, 05:28:23 PM
The full text from that module isn't actually as bad as the OP makes it look.
QuoteWho is August?
She looks like Theda Barda. If you don't know who that is, do a Google search. Dark hair, dark eyes, pale skin. Her hair tumbles over her shoulders like storm clouds. She has the kind of beauty that is truly striking. That is, you look into her eyes and you lose any and all eloquence and grace. Anything you can think to say or do seems wrong. She's that kind of woman.
But she doesn't need to be. In fact, she could be a blonde bombshell. Or she may not even be a woman. I'm using August because she fits the cliche. She screams vampire. You can make August any way you want. Think about your players. Think about someone that's on their "list." You know, the list of people their significant others would give the okay to if they had the chance. You know your players. As far as I know, she could be a cute, geeky red head. Tailor August to their desires.
Honestly, this reads more like a blog post, than an rpg module.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on May 20, 2021, 06:11:28 AM
Honestly, this reads more like a blog post, than an rpg module.
I'm more bothered by the fact that you're told to Google someone to see what they look like, then told it doesn't even matter, you can make her/him/it look like whatever you want? Wtf...