Quote from: Antiquation!;1055619This is hilarious to me, willingly using 3e Vehicles' design system but not the game system itself... to be clear I have absolutely nothing negative to say about that, I just don't think I've ever heard this before, anywhere.

The one time I tried GURPS it was far too wonkish for me in play.

GURPS Vehicles gave me realistic performance profiles (speed, cargo capacity, approximate cost) for ships (sailed, rowed or steam driven), steam boats, air ships and even a steam-powered tractor (the latter three get interesting when you throw in things like decanters of endless water and the ability to summon up fire elementals).

A lot of systems really fall down on the job on the category of transportation. I mean, 3e's ship list was literally Galley, Keelboat, Longship, Sailing Ship and Warship... none of which bore much relation to any actual historical vessel (despite being flat-bottomed, the keelboat was said to be capable of making ocean voyages). Trying to do an Age of Sail campaign when the only ships in the book capable of making sea voyages are keelboats (HA!), longships (which weren't actually used for long ocean voyages unless you count going from Scandinavia to the East Coast of Britain or North Coast of France) and sailing ships (which have only two masts and always square sails for some reason).

The speeds were also ridiculous; 1-2 mph (the longship gets to go 3 mph because I guess Vikings are awesome); they wouldn't even be able to sail up river in any but the most turgid of waters. After consulting real historical sources and figuring out that GURPS Vehicle's results mostly matched those numbers, I just started using it (and a handy builder program) whenever I needed the base stats for primitive vehicles because it gave me numbers without need to do much additional research on specific vessels (with often absent or even contradictory information).

It also let me adjust for more fantastic elements, like the presence of spellcasters in some settings obviating the need for gunpowder cannons (or other siege-based weapons) or the afore mentioned magic-based steam engine and magically levitated air vessels (the drag coefficient equations used do interesting things with ships that don't need to push through water).

Another helpful thing it provided was lots of reminders of all the little things you'd need to account for in terms of design that if I were just winging it, I'd probably never have even considered... stuff like bilge pumps and the cranes for launching and recovering landing craft/rowboats). It gives you things like a vessel's draft which is equally important for navigating in many places as just how long and wide it is (also its likely number of decks and height of its masts).

In short, it gave me a nice tool box for creating the sort of things you'd be more likely to find in a fantasy kitchen sink setting in concrete enough terms that you could then plug the results into any other game system and get a usable craft.

ETA:

Quote from: Skarg;1055629Estar is right that it's a toolkit which gives a consistent and basically realistic/logical approach that lets you make all sorts of games in all sorts of settings... though as was also pointed out, Supers games tend to suffer from the logic, as Supers aren't particularly compatible with logic and realism. i.e. GURPS is full of logic that spoils the illogical conceits of many/most comic books & supers stories since most things are designed to make sense and be consistent.

There's a reason I specified "pre-modern" in my original description. Supers vehicles are basically just "powers" a given hero or group of heroes have and are best accounted for in that way. Sci-Fi is such a wide and deep bin that you could excuse deviations from expected physical results as simply an aspect of the setting's tech (within reason).

Generally within near future settings I just use modern vehicle performance adjusted by percentages (ex. a top of the line 2050 fighter jet is 10% faster, 5% better armored, has 20% more payload, and 15% better endurance than a modern jet fighter). Anything past that its down to whatever feels right for the setting backed up by a little physics (i.e. no acceleration past about 9G for moments, 5G for minutes, 3G for up to an hour and 1G or less for non-combat acceleration unless the setting has inertial dampers... yes, I'm a fan of solar system-based sci-fi settings; ex. Jovian Chronicles; so the physics involved in that fascinates me).

Quote from: Chris24601;1055630The one time I tried GURPS it was far too wonkish for me in play.

[snip]

In short, it gave me a nice tool box for creating the sort of things you'd be more likely to find in a fantasy kitchen sink setting in concrete enough terms that you could then plug the results into any other game system and get a usable craft.

Makes sense, and I can see the utility there. I guess I've just always thought of Vehicles as being far too detail-oriented for most non-GURPS players (and even most GURPS players) to really be interested in or find useful, so your commentary took me by surprise.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1055635There's a reason I specified "pre-modern" in my original description. Supers vehicles are basically just "powers" a given hero or group of heroes have and are best accounted for in that way. Sci-Fi is such a wide and deep bin that you could excuse deviations from expected physical results as simply an aspect of the setting's tech (within reason).

Generally within near future settings I just use modern vehicle performance adjusted by percentages (ex. a top of the line 2050 fighter jet is 10% faster, 5% better armored, has 20% more payload, and 15% better endurance than a modern jet fighter). Anything past that its down to whatever feels right for the setting backed up by a little physics (i.e. no acceleration past about 9G for moments, 5G for minutes, 3G for up to an hour and 1G or less for non-combat acceleration unless the setting has inertial dampers... yes, I'm a fan of solar system-based sci-fi settings; ex. Jovian Chronicles; so the physics involved in that fascinates me).

Yes.

If you look at the vehicles in the books in the GURPS WWII series, you'll see they used a similar approach: They take the actual stats on the vehicles and then try to find the closest match in GURPS Vehicles terms, adjusting and fudging as necessary.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1055635Makes sense, and I can see the utility there. I guess I've just always thought of Vehicles as being far too detail-oriented for most non-GURPS players (and even most GURPS players) to really be interested in or find useful, so your commentary took me by surprise.

For most things I am excessively detail-oriented, and although I do find GURPS Vehicles interesting and make occasional forays into using it, mostly I find it too detail-oriented and yet, as Antiquation! pointed out, somewhat incomplete and off-target or even not detailed enough in some cases, and mostly unnecessary. However it is good, as Antiquation! also pointed out, for getting a good starting point and considering things one might not otherwise consider.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1055635Makes sense, and I can see the utility there. I guess I've just always thought of Vehicles as being far too detail-oriented for most non-GURPS players (and even most GURPS players) to really be interested in or find useful, so your commentary took me by surprise.

Yeah, I don't mind detail; in fact I love a lot of detail. The level of detail in GURPS Vehicles is absolutely my jam... when I'm not taking up table time with it.

There's a limit to how much detail can be usefully applied in a tabletop setting without it slowing the game to a crawl. Even people who are exceptional at mathematics take time to actually perform the calculations and beyond a certain point you're making the perfect simulation the enemy of the good time had by the players. At the table D&D's level of abstraction is the sweet spot for me and most people I play with; Palladium's opposed combat rolls can be fun, but the cost in speed is rarely worth it vs. targeting a static defense unless we're running a really combat heavy game where experiencing the combat at the level of moment to moment attacks, parries, dodges, etc. is part of the goal.

Similarly, most of the time, adding a Damage Reduction step to combat rarely adds much compared to what is lost in time in my experience (there have been exceptions; but as a rule the most variables you want to have in a given action is two; preferably two that can rolled for at the same time; ex. hit and damage, hit and location, hit and defense with damage as the margin of success; etc.).

On the other hand, with computer games, the more wonkish the stats the better for me; give me to-hit calculations that include facing and target profile and damage that isn't rolled, but is calculated based on location and angle of impact/armor slope and I'd be giddy; because you've got a computer making all those calculations in a fraction of a second and you just get to experience the joy of the simulation and/or wonking your way through tweaking your stats to give you the best performance within your budget.

Likewise, anything that you can do outside of a game session structure is also something I don't mind a ton of detail for. Some people watch internet cat videos for fun; I do domain management on spreadsheets and vehicle design.

GURPS is amazing for me with all the outside of a game table stuff; but once you go about having to use all of those stats generated about the vehicles in play, not so much. How fast does it go? How much can it haul? How much of a beating can it take/dish out? Does it have any special tricks? How much does it cost? Those are about the only things most tabletop players I've met actually care about and at the level of abstraction for most tabletop games that's about all you actually need 90+% of the time.

Personally I've never found the mental overhead or resolution processes required by GURPS to be burdensome or sluggish in play, particularly when I have it tuned lighter and more cinematic; in fact I find it much lighter and easier to deal with at the table and adjudicate for than most D&D editions I've personally run, save for when I plug in too many detailed, interrelated rules modules.

However, I do realize my experience is far from universal (eh? Eh? Anyone?). I think it just "clicks" with me as an engine of resolution.

I can't say I've ever had difficulty with the vehicle rules in play, they've always seemed fairly simple and straight forward to me, but everything is relative. I mainly like having detail to pull when I want or need it, and ignore/simplify/spot rule when I don't.

Anyway, yeah, I say play whatever game(s) give you your preferred "mouth feel" and steal shamelessly from the rest.

Everything !....


- I use it for everything, Every setting...


- Ed C.

What do you use GURPS for?

These days, not a damn thing.

I have been running a zombie apocalypse campaign loosely based on the walking dead series for almost two years now using GURPS. It has been my go to system for almost two decades. It works well with any genre, but especially gritty, "realistic" settings. You can ramp up the realistic or the cinematic effect as much as you want with all the optional rules. Or you can keep it simple and clean and use little to no optional rules. People seem to be scared of GURPS because they think it's overly complicated, but when you strip all the optional rules out it's just find the appropriate attribute or skill, add a modifier and roll low on 3d6. If you can get roll high on d20, you can get that.

I'm also in the "not a thing" cohort. I did buy the newish Dungeon Fantasy box back in the spring, but I've only opened it twice (once the night I purchased it, again a week later) and reading it over just didn't get me interested in it enough to go further.

It's all I use, and I mostly run fantasy.

Quote from: SCM;1056040People seem to be scared of GURPS because they think it's overly complicated, but when you strip all the optional rules out it's just find the appropriate attribute or skill, add a modifier and roll low on 3d6. If you can get roll high on d20, you can get that.

That's as disingenuous as saying D20 is simply because it's "just roll a D20 against some modifiers, higher is better". It's all the other elements and any options that create the complexity, not the basic mechanic.

Quote from: Kiero;1056092That's as disingenuous as saying D20 is simply because it's "just roll a D20 against some modifiers, higher is better". It's all the other elements and any options that create the complexity, not the basic mechanic.

Even with all the rules, I am not finding GURPS more complicated than 3.5. That being said, what's really nice about GURPS 4e is that they layered their rules in such a way that you do not need to be playing with all the rules for the game to feel complete. That kind of prevents the, "hold on I'll look it up" moments because you can just forget the rule and move on.
But it also let's players look up their rules to determine if they can do something before they ask me (most of the time, not every skill has detailed modifiers without really digging through supplements).

Quote from: Kiero;1056092That's as disingenuous as saying D20 is simply because it's "just roll a D20 against some modifiers, higher is better". It's all the other elements and any options that create the complexity, not the basic mechanic.

My point is that GURPS isn't more complicated than any other system. Page 8-9 of the Basic Set is all you need to know to play. The rest is just flavor. Besides my ZA campaign I've mainly used it for fantasy campaigns and find it works better than the other major systems designed specifically around that genre.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1055646However, I do realize my experience is far from universal (eh? Eh? Anyone?). I think it just "clicks" with me as an engine of resolution.

I'm right there with you. I run a very basic GURPS £rd Ed. game. Once chargen is out of the way it's a simple to grasp roll under with 3d6 and use defaults or wing it for skills the character doesn't have, theater of the mind for combat with very few of the extra combat options, and magic in the hands of NPCs. I mostly run low fantasy, but have done a few weird wars, and gritty modern one shots too.

Since I backed TFT and found my old "Man to Man" book, I'm itching to run a "tournament of gladiators" with my family.
150 points, no disadvantages, TL 4 maybe. Having not played M2M since the 80s I'm just learning via Gurps lite. Fun anyway...I like the IDEA of GURPS.