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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Battlemaster on April 26, 2022, 12:29:27 PM

Title: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Battlemaster on April 26, 2022, 12:29:27 PM
OK picture if you wil,l a RPG comes out and the ads for it say clearly it is "non woke"? The writers declare it non woke. They say they avoided the woke agenda when they wrote it.

How do you think this would affect the game's sales?  Would DTRPG refuse to carry it?  Would woke.net not allow positive reviews? Would enough gamers seek it out just for rejecting wokust attitudes?

I'm just curious if taking an anti woke status would help, harm or kill a game?

And I define "woke" as adhering to a radical extremist left agenda that ignores reality, demands utter and complete submission to it's views, bans long used and commonly accepted words like gypsy because a tiny number of people claim them are offensive and organizes harassment of people refusing to submit to their demands.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: migo on April 26, 2022, 12:55:27 PM
I don't think it would benefit sales. I wouldn't explicitly seek it out because it's not woke.

What would probably work well is if they design a game that they think is fun, and it gets attacked for having some element that the woke object to. And then the designers tell them to fuck off.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: VisionStorm on April 26, 2022, 01:15:39 PM
If anything that would just draw negative attention to the game, ensuring that it will be cancelled by the woke crowd and probably rejected by DTRPG, while not impressing anybody who's anti-woke, unless the game actually has any redeeming qualities other than being "not woke.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: hedgehobbit on April 26, 2022, 01:17:06 PM
OK picture if you wil,l a RPG comes out and the ads for it say clearly it is "non woke"? The writers declare it non woke. They say they avoided the woke agenda when they wrote it.

Wokeness is a pretty nebulous term. People say that the new Batman movie wasn't woke when it has all the hallmarks of wokeness. I agree with the other post that it is trivial to signal non-wokeness without specifically saying it.

Besides, if you are selling your product on DTRPG, you've agreed to a minimal level of wokeness already.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on April 26, 2022, 01:22:11 PM
I think your average roleplayer would rather forget the Culture War exists.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Battlemaster on April 26, 2022, 01:34:11 PM
OK, say a company didn't openly declare it non wpke, but just used normal pronouns, (he,  she) used long accepted terms like gypsy,  etc,  and if called out on it just shrugged and said 'Wr eont be dictated too by extremists. "

Btw,  on rpggerk a review of the 7e of battlelords made it clear the game was non woke on his review.

https://rpggeek.com/thread/2495585/weaponry-attitude-and-grit-angsty-effetes-need-not
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: amacris on April 26, 2022, 01:40:37 PM
Can I modify this query slightly? Because woke games don't bill themselves as woke, they just *are* woke. So the counterpoint would be a game that is self-evidently not woke in its setting, though it never talks about that per se. Imagine you discovered *that* game. Would the average RPGSite reader support it for that reason alone? I think the answer is "no". In general our crowd doesn't go out of its way to support product on ideological grounds.  Whereas the other team does.

I get why the individualistic and meritocratic right does what it does; we put quality ahead of ideology. However, taken as a whole, when fighting a culture war, it results in an outcome that's not good for our crowd. Mathematically this has been modeled as "ethnocentric" vs "humanitarian" competition: https://www.jasss.org/16/3/7.html

"Recent agent-based computer simulations suggest that ethnocentrism, often thought to rely on complex social cognition and learning, may have arisen through biological evolution. From a random start, ethnocentric strategies dominate other possible strategies (selfish, traitorous, and humanitarian) based on cooperation or non-cooperation with in-group and out-group agents. Here we show that ethnocentrism eventually overcomes its closest competitor, humanitarianism, by exploiting humanitarian cooperation across group boundaries as world population saturates. Selfish and traitorous strategies are self-limiting because such agents do not cooperate with agents sharing the same genes. Traitorous strategies fare even worse than selfish ones because traitors are exploited by ethnocentrics across group boundaries in the same manner as humanitarians are, via unreciprocated cooperation. By tracking evolution across time, we find individual differences between evolving worlds in terms of early humanitarian competition with ethnocentrism, including early stages of humanitarian dominance. Our evidence indicates that such variation, in terms of differences between humanitarian and ethnocentric agents, is normally distributed and due to early, rather than later, stochastic differences in immigrant strategies."

Simplified, imagine two groups of consumers, colored red and blue, who encounter games coded red or blue and good or bad.
Red consumers buy games coded good, regardless of color. They prefer red but not enough to buy red bad.
Blue consumers buy games coded blue, regardless of quality. They prefer quality but not enough to buy red good.
Run an agent-based simulation and you'll end up with a market dominated by good blue games. The blue consumer gets everything he wants while the red consumer only gets half of what he wants. That's the state we are in today.

EDIT: While I was writing you said the same thing I was saying about how the game would be presented.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 26, 2022, 01:47:38 PM
bans long used and commonly accepted words like gypsy
I looked this up. Some Roma find it offensive, some don't. Some people use it as a slur, some don't. Rather than get bogged down in that issue, I'm just gonna use bohemian (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bohemian) from now on. So I'll call it the bohemian moth rather than the spongy moth.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: FingerRod on April 26, 2022, 01:58:05 PM
Can I modify this query slightly? Because woke games don't bill themselves as woke, they just *are* woke. So the counterpoint would be a game that is self-evidently not woke in its setting, though it never talks about that per se. Imagine you discovered *that* game. Would the average RPGSite reader support it for that reason alone? I think the answer is "no". In general our crowd doesn't go out of its way to support product on ideological grounds.  Whereas the other team does.

Maybe generally speaking, yes, but I know some who have gone out of their way to purchase products who avoid being woke. You, Pundit and Raggi all have reputations for creating nice games/supplements. Before I even knew who you were I was modded for talking about one of your products. Out of spite I purchased several of your products and DM’d the mod and told them they provoked the purchase.

I did something similar for Pundit. And when Raggi was getting canceled a couple summers ago, I literally purchased a physical copy of everything on both the EU and USA store for any LOTFP product I did not already own. I never did get my fucking orange bucket btw… :)

So I will say there are some out there who will kick purchases your way because you eat shit for not bending the knee. But I do not know how much, if at all, it actually moves the needle.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Battlemaster on April 26, 2022, 02:12:25 PM
Can I modify this query slightly? Because woke games don't bill themselves as woke, they just *are* woke. So the counterpoint would be a game that is self-evidently not woke in its setting, though it never talks about that per se. Imagine you discovered *that* game. Would the average RPGSite reader support it for that reason alone? I think the answer is "no". In general our crowd doesn't go out of its way to support product on ideological grounds.  Whereas the other team does.

Maybe generally speaking, yes, but I know some who have gone out of their way to purchase products who avoid being woke. You, Pundit and Raggi all have reputations for creating nice games/supplements. Before I even knew who you were I was modded for talking about one of your products. Out of spite I purchased several of your products and DM’d the mod and told them they provoked the purchase.

I did something similar for Pundit. And when Raggi was getting canceled a couple summers ago, I literally purchased a physical copy of everything on both the EU and USA store for any LOTFP product I did not already own. I never did get my fucking orange bucket btw… :)

So I will say there are some out there who will kick purchases your way because you eat shit for not bending the knee. But I do not know how much, if at all, it actually moves the needle.

So you did get ban hammered then,  right?

OK the consensus seems to be that wokusts are more likely to shun a product that is non woke but non wokusts are less likely to gravitate towards it, with some exceptions, right?

Btw, how long do you think it'll be before some game company starts calling bsnshees "bantheys" and woke.net begins redtexting people for not using the new term?
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Godsmonkey on April 26, 2022, 02:22:54 PM
OK picture if you wil,l a RPG comes out and the ads for it say clearly it is "non woke"? The writers declare it non woke. They say they avoided the woke agenda when they wrote it.

How do you think this would affect the game's sales?  Would DTRPG refuse to carry it?  Would woke.net not allow positive reviews? Would enough gamers seek it out just for rejecting wokust attitudes?

I'm just curious if taking an anti woke status would help, harm or kill a game?

And I define "woke" as adhering to a radical extremist left agenda that ignores reality, demands utter and complete submission to it's views, bans long used and commonly accepted words like gypsy because a tiny number of people claim them are offensive and organizes harassment of people refusing to submit to their demands.

Can we get Jeremy Boreing to do the ads?
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on April 26, 2022, 02:24:23 PM
The problem is that there are several different ways of being 'not woke', and very few people are going to be sympathetic to all of them. Pundit and Venger are 'not woke', but I look askance at Pundit's stuff for various reasons and wouldn't touch Venger's with a ten foot pole. :)
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: David Johansen on April 26, 2022, 02:32:20 PM
So, like a game with naked titties?
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Trond on April 26, 2022, 02:59:30 PM
I think it might work. Some shitty games got a lot of attention simply for pissing people off. If it does have something going for it besides that it might actually sell.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: FingerRod on April 26, 2022, 03:13:53 PM
Can I modify this query slightly? Because woke games don't bill themselves as woke, they just *are* woke. So the counterpoint would be a game that is self-evidently not woke in its setting, though it never talks about that per se. Imagine you discovered *that* game. Would the average RPGSite reader support it for that reason alone? I think the answer is "no". In general our crowd doesn't go out of its way to support product on ideological grounds.  Whereas the other team does.

Maybe generally speaking, yes, but I know some who have gone out of their way to purchase products who avoid being woke. You, Pundit and Raggi all have reputations for creating nice games/supplements. Before I even knew who you were I was modded for talking about one of your products. Out of spite I purchased several of your products and DM’d the mod and told them they provoked the purchase.

I did something similar for Pundit. And when Raggi was getting canceled a couple summers ago, I literally purchased a physical copy of everything on both the EU and USA store for any LOTFP product I did not already own. I never did get my fucking orange bucket btw… :)

So I will say there are some out there who will kick purchases your way because you eat shit for not bending the knee. But I do not know how much, if at all, it actually moves the needle.
So you did get ban hammered then,  right?

OK the consensus seems to be that wokusts are more likely to shun a product that is non woke but non wokusts are less likely to gravitate towards it, with some exceptions, right?

Btw, how long do you think it'll be before some game company starts calling bsnshees "bantheys" and woke.net begins redtexting people for not using the new term?

Fortunately, I have not been banned since my PlanetDiablo days around 20 years ago. No, in this case it was a light modding for “tone” or something like that in how I responded to others who came in guns blazing soy lattes extra hot.

As for your last question, I’d need a translator to understand a lot of those words, but I will guess 118 days?? :)
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: RebelSky on April 26, 2022, 03:57:52 PM
To advertise a product as non-woke would automatically put the product under the cross hairs of anyone who is both woke and anti-political. Bringing up the word woke over the last few years has conditioned enough people to link the word with politics to the point that some people, regardless of intention, will react negatively to it.

Better to just make a good game and let the wokists let us know by their insanity that it's not woke.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Banjo Destructo on April 26, 2022, 04:17:37 PM
I think it would be too radioactive.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Jam The MF on April 26, 2022, 05:43:35 PM
I would be more likely to buy such a game.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: LouProsperi on April 26, 2022, 06:10:25 PM
And I define "woke" as adhering to a radical extremist left agenda that ignores reality, demands utter and complete submission to it's views, bans long used and commonly accepted words like gypsy because a tiny number of people claim them are offensive and organizes harassment of people refusing to submit to their demands.

Based on that definition, nearly every RPG ever published could feature your "Non-Woke" label. Certainly companies that choose to use gender neutral pronouns like "they" don't fit that definition, and most RPG companies don't impose demands of any kind on their customers.

Seems like you're the one ignoring reality.

All that said, I suspect labeling an RPG as "Non-Woke" would not be good for business. I'd venture to say that for most people, "woke" doesn't have the same negative connotations you think it does, and many potential customers would see such a label as a form of "virtue signaling".


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Ruprecht on April 26, 2022, 07:38:24 PM
Use the phrase "Savage Orc witchdoctors" in your ads (or something similar that fits your product) and you will have the same effect as advertising as anti-woke without being so obvious about it.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 26, 2022, 08:14:21 PM
What would probably work well is if they design a game that they think is fun, and it gets attacked for having some element that the woke object to. And then the designers tell them to fuck off.

This.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Zelen on April 26, 2022, 08:54:42 PM
It is a necessary, but not sufficient condition.
I'm not going to buy your book based on that alone, but I'll consider it.



Use the phrase "Savage Orc witchdoctors" in your ads (or something similar that fits your product) and you will have the same effect as advertising as anti-woke without being so obvious about it.

Unironically, I think this is a clever way to do it. Damsels in distress, savage orcs, sinister drow. I'm for it.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: moonsweeper on April 26, 2022, 09:26:33 PM
It is a necessary, but not sufficient condition.
I'm not going to buy your book based on that alone, but I'll consider it.



Use the phrase "Savage Orc witchdoctors" in your ads (or something similar that fits your product) and you will have the same effect as advertising as anti-woke without being so obvious about it.


Unironically, I think this is a clever way to do it. Damsels in distress, savage orcs, sinister drow. I'm for it.

Make sure you have the tawdry, pulp fiction style cover art while you're at it.  ;D
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 27, 2022, 10:31:21 AM
Use the phrase "Savage Orc witchdoctors" in your ads (or something similar that fits your product) and you will have the same effect as advertising as anti-woke without being so obvious about it.
A witchdoctor is a “healer or benevolent worker of magic in a nonliterate society” according to Britannica. Warlock or necrolyte may be better
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 27, 2022, 10:38:07 AM
Use the phrase "Savage Orc witchdoctors" in your ads (or something similar that fits your product) and you will have the same effect as advertising as anti-woke without being so obvious about it.
A witchdoctor is a “healer or benevolent worker of magic in a nonliterate society” according to Britannica. Warlock or necrolyte may be better
It won't matter. The SJW brigade will still shit their pants over it.

Remember, this is the same class of people who will throw a tantrum over 'cultural appropriation' even when people who are part of said culture aren't objecting to a depiction.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: THE_Leopold on April 27, 2022, 11:25:56 AM
Sounds like a "normal" game then at the store.  The more adjectives and things you say are NOT there the less there actually is.


Don't put a Sensativity Disclaimer at the front of the product. You've just made it "Non-Woke" right there.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on April 27, 2022, 11:38:29 AM
Acid test:  You are designing, developing, and testing the game.  It becomes clear that the best way to do something and explain it could be mistaken for "woke" on a surface examination, even though that's more about the woke crowd bastardizing vocabulary than anything else.  That is, the best way to do it could be spun as "woke" even though that has nothing to do with your analysis.  Do you do the best thing or not?  If you don't, congratulations, you've just made your game worse than it could be chasing what should be a secondary or even tertiary goal. 

It's more than a little like the "let the dice fall where they may" thing.  There's all kinds of seductive reasons to avoid it, and some shallow benefits to avoiding it, but if you really want to have a good game, you violate it at your peril.   Make a good game.  If it happens to offend some segment of the woke, that's a bonus.  Besides, in the course of making a good game, it's practically impossible to not offend the shallow, easily offended crowd.  So you probably get the bonus without even trying.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Ruprecht on April 27, 2022, 12:00:39 PM
A witchdoctor is a “healer or benevolent worker of magic in a nonliterate society” according to Britannica. Warlock or necrolyte may be better
witchdoctors were never prevalent in Europe so it must be racist colonialist whatever to use that term. I know I've seen witchdoctors proclaims as problematic by SJW so it came to mind. Lots of substitutes would be valid though. You could even go with Evangelical if you really want tears and rage.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: amacris on April 27, 2022, 12:36:43 PM
The problem is that there are several different ways of being 'not woke', and very few people are going to be sympathetic to all of them. Pundit and Venger are 'not woke', but I look askance at Pundit's stuff for various reasons and wouldn't touch Venger's with a ten foot pole. :)

Yes. This is a great point. If you're not woke because you're a Christian conservative, you're a very different shade of not woke than because you're a libertine hedonist, for instance.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 27, 2022, 12:45:38 PM
The problem is that there are several different ways of being 'not woke', and very few people are going to be sympathetic to all of them. Pundit and Venger are 'not woke', but I look askance at Pundit's stuff for various reasons and wouldn't touch Venger's with a ten foot pole. :)

Yes. This is a great point. If you're not woke because you're a Christian conservative, you're a very different shade of not woke than because you're a libertine hedonist, for instance.

Grim Jim
Pundit
Venger

All non-woke or anti-woke even, yet their political, economical and social stances differ.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 27, 2022, 12:50:18 PM
A witchdoctor is a “healer or benevolent worker of magic in a nonliterate society” according to Britannica. Warlock or necrolyte may be better
witchdoctors were never prevalent in Europe so it must be racist colonialist whatever to use that term. I know I've seen witchdoctors proclaims as problematic by SJW so it came to mind. Lots of substitutes would be valid though. You could even go with Evangelical if you really want tears and rage.
Well, it was traditionally used pejoratively by colonists and still used that way into the present.

According to this article from 1998: https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/277136/which-witch/
Quote
The term “witch doctor” is derogatory, sensationalistic, and racist. In less enlightened times it was employed to describe the priests and healers of “primitive” (i.e., nonwhite) cultures, and I had hoped that it had fallen into disuse. It is no more appropriate to refer to Max Beauvoir as a witch doctor than to apply that term to a Christian leader, a Jewish rabbi, or any other spiritual leader.

I've seen Pathfinder try to reclaim it in a positive sense (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/archetypes/paizo-shaman-archetypes/witch-doctor/). That's clearly not what was Ruprecht was saying.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 27, 2022, 01:02:57 PM
A witchdoctor is a “healer or benevolent worker of magic in a nonliterate society” according to Britannica. Warlock or necrolyte may be better
witchdoctors were never prevalent in Europe so it must be racist colonialist whatever to use that term. I know I've seen witchdoctors proclaims as problematic by SJW so it came to mind. Lots of substitutes would be valid though. You could even go with Evangelical if you really want tears and rage.
Well, it was traditionally used pejoratively by colonists and still used that way into the present.

According to this article from 1998: https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/277136/which-witch/
Quote
The term “witch doctor” is derogatory, sensationalistic, and racist. In less enlightened times it was employed to describe the priests and healers of “primitive” (i.e., nonwhite) cultures, and I had hoped that it had fallen into disuse. It is no more appropriate to refer to Max Beauvoir as a witch doctor than to apply that term to a Christian leader, a Jewish rabbi, or any other spiritual leader.

I've seen Pathfinder try to reclaim it in a positive sense (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/archetypes/paizo-shaman-archetypes/witch-doctor/). That's clearly not what was Ruprecht was saying.

I looooove when they put primitive between quotes, yes the vast majority of the world was primitive when the europeans stumbled upon it.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Chris24601 on April 27, 2022, 04:22:45 PM
Just do what I did; put a heroic-looking white male warrior and a hot redhead sorceress on the cover.

Then don’t include a sensitivity statement or any references to the existence of the alphabet people because you’ve focused your limited page count on all the details actually important to your setting.

That should be more than enough to send the wokists into Reeing fits.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on April 27, 2022, 06:09:46 PM
Just do what I did; put a heroic-looking white male warrior and a hot redhead sorceress on the cover.

Then don’t include a sensitivity statement or any references to the existence of the alphabet people because you’ve focused your limited page count on all the details actually important to your setting.

That should be more than enough to send the wokists into Reeing fits.

  Honestly, this is all anyone has to do to draw people who are over tired of woke.  No need to make proclamations IMO.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: SHARK on April 27, 2022, 06:29:28 PM
Greetings!

I have Witchdoctors in my campaign world.

I'm not changing a thing. I don't care if some people snivel about Witchdoctor's as a term being racist or colonialist. Bullshit.

In my university Anthropology classes, many years ago now, the professors routinely discussed tribal and native WITCHDOCTORS. The professors loved the native and tribal peoples, and lived and studied amongst them for YEARS. They were experts and fucking AUTHORITIES on different tribal peoples from Africa, Asia, North and South America.

If you don't like the term "Witchdoctor" fuck you. Stop being a whining bitch pussy.

Geesus I'm sick of these fucking cunts. So pathetic and unhinged from the real fucking world.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 27, 2022, 07:25:52 PM
It should be witch-physicians, thank you. To avoid confusion with Doctorates in Witchcraft Studies.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 27, 2022, 07:29:16 PM
It should be witch-physicians, thank you. To avoid confusion with Doctorates in Witchcraft Studies.

Could be...



The mexican version is best

Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: whatsleft on April 28, 2022, 05:51:05 AM
I don't think it would benefit sales. I wouldn't explicitly seek it out because it's not woke.

What would probably work well is if they design a game that they think is fun, and it gets attacked for having some element that the woke object to. And then the designers tell them to fuck off.

Absolutely agree. We need woke emancipation, not counter-woke policies. From my left point of view we need to stop offense minorities and not to promote minorities, because promote difference is worst, we must create a world in which difference doesn't matter at all. And must of all, freedom of expression.

But as I said in another threads, we miss a very important point to understand the reality: the impact on sales of this woke agenda. It is fundamental to understand the correlation (if any) between sales and wokeness.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Philotomy Jurament on April 28, 2022, 02:13:59 PM
I don't know what would happen, but I know that such a marketing claim would turn me off. It's not because the game would be "non-woke," but because it would signal that politics/culture-war was a big design concern, and that's a red flag for me. I don't choose a game to support any front in the culture wars; I choose games I enjoy. My advice would be to just design a game that is fun and cool, and not worry at all about whether it's "woke" or "non-woke." And if culture warriors start bitching about the game, just ignore them completely.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on April 29, 2022, 05:16:36 AM
Simplified, imagine two groups of consumers, colored red and blue, who encounter games coded red or blue and good or bad.
Red consumers buy games coded good, regardless of color. They prefer red but not enough to buy red bad.
Blue consumers buy games coded blue, regardless of quality. They prefer quality but not enough to buy red good.
Run an agent-based simulation and you'll end up with a market dominated by good blue games. The blue consumer gets everything he wants while the red consumer only gets half of what he wants. That's the state we are in today.

Indeed, but I think we're reaching a turning point as the more Blue designers prioritize their politics over playability the less capable they become at producing Quality games, which is why shame and censorship are so important to their agenda. So the key becomes at preventing the latter.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: David Johansen on April 29, 2022, 09:47:58 AM
There's a number of supposedly respectable modern professions dominated by white guys that I describe as "witch doctors" all the time.  Does that mean I can add "cultural appropriation" to the list of their many sins?
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: HappyDaze on April 29, 2022, 10:21:11 AM
I've worked with one practicing physician that claims to be Wiccan. Yes, she sometimes calls herself a witch doctor.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on April 29, 2022, 10:55:27 AM
There's a number of supposedly respectable modern professions dominated by white guys that I describe as "witch doctors" all the time.  Does that mean I can add "cultural appropriation" to the list of their many sins?
“Witch doctor” was invented as a pejorative by Western civilization, so this wouldn’t be cultural appropriation. I guess.

I've worked with one practicing physician that claims to be Wiccan. Yes, she sometimes calls herself a witch doctor.
Assuming she isn’t using that in jest or pun… This is “reclamation,” when a pejorative is used in a positive sense by those it was previously used to denigrate. Or at least it would be if she wasn’t Euro-pagan, I guess.

Cultural appropriation is a needlessly complicated issue because it’s decided on a case-by-case basis by people with differing opinions on the subject. It would be so much much easier if we lived in a hive mind where everyone had the same opinion and were completely honest with each other.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: I on April 29, 2022, 01:21:24 PM
Billing a game as "non-woke" would not improve sales and would almost certainly hurt them.  All but the Woke generally resent the shoehorning of current-day politics into their games, even politics they might agree with.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Drude on April 29, 2022, 02:48:22 PM
Wretched Bastards (and it's adventures) from the Red Room is definitely anti-Woke
https://twitter.com/moordereht/status/1519694005054943233/photo/1

https://moordereht.com/wretched-bastards
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: King Tyranno on April 29, 2022, 03:04:53 PM
I think the big thing here is that you shouldn't need to label your game "anti-woke". The big issue with Woke shit is that The Message trumps any actual creativity. When you say you are making a Woke book. You are saying you are making something that is entirely about wokeness, A good RPG book doesn't need that. You label your book as the cool book that has rules for new things that are exciting. You don't need to say it's woke. The same applies to "anti-woke". You are saying that is your main selling point which tells me you don't have anything cool or worthwhile other than being "anti-woke". If you did you wouldn't need to say you're "anti-woke".

Good work stands on it's own and doesn't need political labels. People buy good work. They don't buy shallow political pamphlets.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Zelen on April 29, 2022, 03:34:45 PM
I encourage everyone to hire Offensivity Readers to ensure that the games you produce are sufficiently offensive. I'm willing to offer my services as OR to game products so that your product can receive the coveted 100% Offensive rating.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on April 29, 2022, 05:17:40 PM
What do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
It would appeal more to the non-woke political junkie twitter crowd that'd buy it just to use as virtual signaling that it's a thing. But not ever play it probably.

Regular normies would probably want to no more about what the game actually is first before considering buying.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 29, 2022, 05:18:18 PM
I encourage everyone to hire Offensivity Readers to ensure that the games you produce are sufficiently offensive. I'm willing to hire my services as OR to game products so that your product can receive the coveted 100% Offensive rating.

Now that's a scam ehem a plan.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Shasarak on April 29, 2022, 05:53:30 PM
OK picture if you wil,l a RPG comes out and the ads for it say clearly it is "non woke"? The writers declare it non woke. They say they avoided the woke agenda when they wrote it.

You dont make a RPG that is "non woke"

You make a RPG thats fucking bad ass.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 29, 2022, 05:56:16 PM
OK picture if you wil,l a RPG comes out and the ads for it say clearly it is "non woke"? The writers declare it non woke. They say they avoided the woke agenda when they wrote it.

You dont make a RPG that is "non woke"

You make a RPG thats fucking bad ass.

THIS!
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: weirdguy564 on April 30, 2022, 08:21:55 AM
Aren’t most games non-woke?   We just read them and they’re “normal”.  Aka, you never noticed anything was wrong.   Because there isn’t anything wrong. 

It’s the insufferable writers who get noticed because of the weird, left turns in the narrative, or overly explained left wing virtues in their works.  You can almost see the blue hair dye, overly pierced faces, and butterfly tattoos in those cases.   It is even worse when it is a female writer.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: weirdguy564 on April 30, 2022, 08:25:51 AM
Also, would a non-woke game require different stats for women vs men?   Biology is fact, and average men are bigger than average women. 
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: weirdguy564 on April 30, 2022, 08:30:32 AM
What do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
It would appeal more to the non-woke political junkie twitter crowd that'd buy it just to use as virtual signaling that it's a thing. But not ever play it probably.

Regular normies would probably want to no more about what the game actually is first before considering buying.

This.

In reality a non-woke game would probably be just as distracting as a woke one.  We play games to have fun, and the rules need to be helpful, not distracting. 

I’m also perfectly able to modify/house rule my own games to fit my style.  Aka I keep cultures separate so traveling introduces culture shock.  And I keep it real so neighboring cultures despise each other for trivial things. 
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Mishihari on April 30, 2022, 11:29:25 AM
I agree with the general sentiment here.  I want the game to be good, not "none-woke."

An unfortunate consequence of this is that it makes it easy for the woke cause problems.  They want to pursue their agenda.  Most of the rest of us don't have an agenda - we just want to do our thing, whether in games or elsewhere.  So we don't push back against those idiots until they start to bother us, and by that time they have people, momentum, and resources.  And then people start to give up because there's too much momentum.  It's a classic case of "The only thing needed for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing."  It's worked for the nazis and any number of other bad actors through history.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: palaeomerus on April 30, 2022, 06:16:09 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/jqJYaPn.png)

Not sure if real. I'm not on twitter. Probably a meme. I dunno.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: VisionStorm on April 30, 2022, 08:35:39 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/jqJYaPn.png)

Not sure if real. I'm not on twitter. Probably a meme. I dunno.

MFRN
(https://c.tenor.com/Faed-yR29P8AAAAC/huh-ew.gif)
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: hedgehobbit on April 30, 2022, 10:04:52 PM
Also, would a non-woke game require different stats for women vs men?   Biology is fact, and average men are bigger than average women.

It was established in a thread a few months ago that giving women different stats was a very effective tool. All the people you never want to game with will instantly reject the game, leaving just the players who actually want to game.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Effete on May 01, 2022, 06:59:13 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/jqJYaPn.png)

Not sure if real. I'm not on twitter. Probably a meme. I dunno.

Evil transgenders?
How based.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 01, 2022, 11:08:26 AM
Mongoose had a bestiary book which included an entire race of clown fiends called façadas.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: migo on May 02, 2022, 04:29:54 AM
Also, would a non-woke game require different stats for women vs men?   Biology is fact, and average men are bigger than average women.

Depends on if it bills itself as 'realistic'. Back in the 90s and 00s when realism was an important conceit for a lot of games that were being published, and designers weren't deliberately changing their games to appease social justice whiners, alternate stats for women weren't included. AD&D 1e had it, and Planescape had it for Bariaur, but other than that I can't think of any games that did that.

Also, an unusually strong woman that someone wants to play as a fantasy could be like Caster Semenya. I know I certainly wouldn't want to play a game that requires all PCs to be within 2 standard deviations from the mean.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: pdboddy on May 02, 2022, 10:52:30 AM
Can we get Jeremy Boreing to do the ads?

Fucking yes please.  Refreshing truth: "Why give your money to people who hate you?  Give it to me instead."
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 12:49:01 PM
You would be the opposite of all the decay into meaninglessness.

1. Ability scores would Try to be a metric that compares to real-life human ability (Very hard to do, seriously, I.q. is a real pain in the ass to validly quantify, as is wisdom, and charisma...) You would recognize disability as "Criplling", and could use words like "Blind, Deaf, Weak, mute" to describe limiting conditions on characters. You would point out how NO ONE should want to play a disabled victim...
people should always try to discover the heroic and good within them, players should always want to better themselves through effort.

2. you would recognize men and women as being equal, but DIFFERENT. You would recognize only TWO genders. You would acknowledge the reality of chromosomes, genetics, chemistry, and biology, such as Avogadro's number and the Mole, i.e. people claiming to be any other gender are schizoid and anti-reality. You would see them as disgusting sexual deviants looking to create more converts (i.e. abducting and Molesting children) by worming their way into preschool kids, kindergarten, schools period, libraries, games, comics, children's hobbies, etc.

3. You would recognize "Ancestries" as being different and some would not be as strong, intelligent, wise, understanding, sociable, caring, good, healthy, etc as others are... hell, some ancestries could be recognized for an evil heritage/culture. such as slavers, cannibals, necrophilics, bestiality, incestuous, Sexist (include violence/murder of women), pederasts, kangaroo courts, false witch hunters, legitimately Orwellian, real dystopia, etc.

4. You would recognize biblical moral GOOD, and its opposition... EVIL in all of its disguises: ranging from slightly ruining innocence to the worst profane deeds.

5. You would ban people who post sexual content, especially freakish insanity/deviant sex (funtari, anthro, vore, etc.)

the woke say, "Don't Be T.R.A.A.S.H. - Transphobic, Racist, Ableist, Abusive, Sexist, Homophobic"...
and you'd recognize this for what it is; at best "Delusional" insanity. (and protecting DISGUSTING, VILE, SEXUAL PERVERSIONS through double speak, false appeals to virtue, and outright tyranny)

1. You call me names, let's see if you like it...
Day is not night. What is wrong with you? are you a clock'phobe!?! clockist!

2. There are only 2 genders: male, female.
men are not, and cannot be women.
Women are not, and can not be Men.
Reality is absolute, consistent, and measurable from atoms on out to the universe at large. Your problem isn't me. its you.
Get real.

3. Racism? you play an RPG... with diverse ANCESTRIES that have different ability score bonuses, movement rates, cultures, crafts, legal systems, religious morals, artwork, diet, environment, and languages.
so what is your problem, again?
oh, white people.

3. Ableist? DaFuq! what about ability scores isn't? What is your movement rate without paved surfaces? you got a problem with truth, then you don't have a problem with me... take it up with reality, god, the universe. let us see if reality cares about your feelings. let's see you take that wheelchair through a mangrove jungle, deer trails, and dry creek beds.

4.Abusive? you call me abusive? I tell the truth and your feelings hurt because you got caught being a sick pervert... is that what you mean? there are only two genders. women and men are DIFFERENT. Men can not, do not, and never have; periods, become pregnant. Getting pregnant is not an accident. Life begins at conception with a rapidly dividing clump of cells. abortion is not merely the disposal of a new life, it is the cheapening of all life. Too bad. "Hey judge, I didn't murder that girl. I just got rid of a clump of cells"...

5. Sexist? I have served decades in the military alongside women who could out push, lift, and fight better than I. if you think I am sexist, you are a Morron. Guess what? I still open the door for my wife. Chivalry is not chauvinism, Chivalry is not sexism. Chivalry is respect. if you don't want to be respected as a woman, so be it! Expect all men to not provide for you, to not pay for dates, to not buy gifts, to not do favors, to not do anything for you. Don't be mad, just go away an unloved spinster.

6. Homophobic? no. I am not "Phobic". What I am is deeply concerned by LGBT's constant and consistent need to molest children, why are they in the preschools, kindergarden, the schools, The game stores, invading the hobbies, invading theme parks? why? Through the actions of LGBT anyone can see the truth. LGBT is P, as in PEDOPHILES.

7. You don't have a problem with me. You have a problem with being caught. You have a problem with BEING a STEREOTYPE. I don't care what you pretend to be, I'm not your problem. YOUR PROBLEM IS REALITY.
So, go f*** yourself.

This is "Anti-woke".
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 01:00:47 PM
to wit, "anti-woke" is the acknowledgment of EVERYONE's personal responsibility, Merit, achievement, morality, and adherence to the absolutes of objective reality.

Subjective delusions, deviant sexual fantasies, and committing crimes, are all BAD! WRONG! EVIL! SICK! PERVERTED! DISGUSTING!
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 02, 2022, 01:36:36 PM
Can we get Jeremy Boreing to do the ads?

Fucking yes please.  Refreshing truth: "Why give your money to people who hate you?  Give it to me instead."
Discount Dan may be a shyster but at least he's funny.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Wrath of God on May 13, 2022, 09:25:21 AM
Quote
You would be the opposite of all the decay into meaninglessness.

I mean I could accept it, but then you follow with chaotic logorrhea which mixes some normal conservative stuff with rambling about Avogadro number.
For sake of glorious conservative cause I'm sincerely ask you to stop rambling.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Rob Necronomicon on May 13, 2022, 12:37:54 PM
You make a RPG thats fucking bad ass.

That's it, and if some emotionally retarded people are offended or unhappy, then fek 'em!
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Rob Necronomicon on May 13, 2022, 02:23:20 PM
Also, would a non-woke game require different stats for women vs men?   Biology is fact, and average men are bigger than average women.

I don't equate woke with character design in RPGs unless they are the usual woke outcries.

No sane human would deny the science, but wouldn't it be a bit silly to go into that level minutia? Also, pcs are supposed to be rather exceptional compared to the rest of the dreggs. And there are plenty of exceptional female athletes in full contact Martial Arts for real examples.

On the other hand, if you play a cripple then you're a cripple and you will be held back by your biology. So no running up the dungeon stairs for you unless you have a magical wheelchair of course.



Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: SHARK on May 13, 2022, 06:00:51 PM
Also, would a non-woke game require different stats for women vs men?   Biology is fact, and average men are bigger than average women.

I don't equate woke with character design in RPGs unless they are the usual woke outcries.

No sane human would deny the science, but wouldn't it be a bit silly to go into that level minutia? Also, pcs are supposed to be rather exceptional compared to the rest of the dreggs. And there are plenty of exceptional female athletes in full contact Martial Arts for real examples.

On the other hand, if you play a cripple then you're a cripple and you will be held back by your biology. So no running up the dungeon stairs for you unless you have a magical wheelchair of course.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Oh, yes. I can't help but laugh loudly every fucking time someone mentions the fucking magical wheelchairs!

It is absolutely mid-numbingly stupid how the morons that embrace the magical wheelchair seriously with a straight face!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Rob Necronomicon on May 13, 2022, 07:15:31 PM

*Laughing* Oh, yes. I can't help but laugh loudly every fucking time someone mentions the fucking magical wheelchairs!

It is absolutely mid-numbingly stupid how the morons that embrace the magical wheelchair seriously with a straight face!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah man... it is what it is.

But some of those 'nu' D&D5e settings are like the old 'wacky races' cartoon where anything goes. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if you had a new character class like a Uni-Orc. A Siamese twin of a unicorn and a 'holy' orc sliced together and who are also deeply in love with each other. Their main power is to shoot a 'cone of goodness' from the unicorn's horn (which is also a phallus). The cone of goodness dispels grumpy white middle-aged men.

So I guess an obnoxiously powerful magical artifact, the uber chair (that would need to be designed by a deity) is perfectly acceptable for a level 1 character. LOL
You'd think that such a powerful' artifact' might actually be able to heal a cripple's legs as opposed to them floating about like a Davros.

But from my cold dead hands would any player ever get something like that in a gritty or even average fantasy setting. And I don't GM cartoons so 5e is out!  ;D
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: PSIandCO on May 14, 2022, 10:34:28 AM
Quote
You would be the opposite of all the decay into meaninglessness.
I mean I could accept it, but then you follow with chaotic logorrhea which mixes some normal conservative stuff with rambling about Avogadro number. For sake of glorious conservative cause I'm sincerely ask you to stop rambling.

oh, so you don't (or won't) understand what I have written?
Let me try another way;

At conception, genetic material from one man and one woman begin replicating at a fantastic speed. Teeny tiny Molecules are placed precisely, exactly, perfectly 6.023*10X23rd^ times over and over and over and over. So many molecules in each CELL scream the biological instructions of what they will become. let me emphasize that; EVERY CELL knows what you will be, and what you are.

It is not a fact anyone should handwave. If you weigh 100 Kg, how much of you identifies you as a human being? ...ALL OF IT.
That is undeniable. That is REALITY. Reality is Absolute, Constant, Consistent, and Final.
if you don't like my posts or my presentations, too bad human.

All debate; requires an argument, and supporting facts. These facts can be drawn from a plethora of topics, but few are as convincing to me as the absolutes of Scientific constants and physical laws.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: David Johansen on May 15, 2022, 10:35:41 AM
It occurs to me that all you really need is a disclaimer at the start of the book.

Warning!

I don't give a shit why you're crying bitch.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: JorgeCunningham on June 16, 2022, 12:58:13 AM
I will weigh myself on how to invest in it. Currently, my friends and I are playing WorldBox https://techzapk.com/worldbox.htm, at first our resources were only land and water, but now they are powerful territories.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Battlemaster on June 16, 2022, 02:01:13 AM
You would be the opposite of all the decay into meaninglessness.

1. Ability scores would Try to be a metric that compares to real-life human ability (Very hard to do, seriously, I.q. is a real pain in the ass to validly quantify, as is wisdom, and charisma...) You would recognize disability as "Criplling", and could use words like "Blind, Deaf, Weak, mute" to describe limiting conditions on characters. You would point out how NO ONE should want to play a disabled victim...
people should always try to discover the heroic and good within them, players should always want to better themselves through effort.

2. you would recognize men and women as being equal, but DIFFERENT. You would recognize only TWO genders. You would acknowledge the reality of chromosomes, genetics, chemistry, and biology, such as Avogadro's number and the Mole, i.e. people claiming to be any other gender are schizoid and anti-reality. You would see them as disgusting sexual deviants looking to create more converts (i.e. abducting and Molesting children) by worming their way into preschool kids, kindergarten, schools period, libraries, games, comics, children's hobbies, etc.

3. You would recognize "Ancestries" as being different and some would not be as strong, intelligent, wise, understanding, sociable, caring, good, healthy, etc as others are... hell, some ancestries could be recognized for an evil heritage/culture. such as slavers, cannibals, necrophilics, bestiality, incestuous, Sexist (include violence/murder of women), pederasts, kangaroo courts, false witch hunters, legitimately Orwellian, real dystopia, etc.

4. You would recognize biblical moral GOOD, and its opposition... EVIL in all of its disguises: ranging from slightly ruining innocence to the worst profane deeds.

5. You would ban people who post sexual content, especially freakish insanity/deviant sex (funtari, anthro, vore, etc.)

the woke say, "Don't Be T.R.A.A.S.H. - Transphobic, Racist, Ableist, Abusive, Sexist, Homophobic"...
and you'd recognize this for what it is; at best "Delusional" insanity. (and protecting DISGUSTING, VILE, SEXUAL PERVERSIONS through double speak, false appeals to virtue, and outright tyranny)

1. You call me names, let's see if you like it...
Day is not night. What is wrong with you? are you a clock'phobe!?! clockist!

2. There are only 2 genders: male, female.
men are not, and cannot be women.
Women are not, and can not be Men.
Reality is absolute, consistent, and measurable from atoms on out to the universe at large. Your problem isn't me. its you.
Get real.

3. Racism? you play an RPG... with diverse ANCESTRIES that have different ability score bonuses, movement rates, cultures, crafts, legal systems, religious morals, artwork, diet, environment, and languages.
so what is your problem, again?
oh, white people.

3. Ableist? DaFuq! what about ability scores isn't? What is your movement rate without paved surfaces? you got a problem with truth, then you don't have a problem with me... take it up with reality, god, the universe. let us see if reality cares about your feelings. let's see you take that wheelchair through a mangrove jungle, deer trails, and dry creek beds.

4.Abusive? you call me abusive? I tell the truth and your feelings hurt because you got caught being a sick pervert... is that what you mean? there are only two genders. women and men are DIFFERENT. Men can not, do not, and never have; periods, become pregnant. Getting pregnant is not an accident. Life begins at conception with a rapidly dividing clump of cells. abortion is not merely the disposal of a new life, it is the cheapening of all life. Too bad. "Hey judge, I didn't murder that girl. I just got rid of a clump of cells"...

5. Sexist? I have served decades in the military alongside women who could out push, lift, and fight better than I. if you think I am sexist, you are a Morron. Guess what? I still open the door for my wife. Chivalry is not chauvinism, Chivalry is not sexism. Chivalry is respect. if you don't want to be respected as a woman, so be it! Expect all men to not provide for you, to not pay for dates, to not buy gifts, to not do favors, to not do anything for you. Don't be mad, just go away an unloved spinster.

6. Homophobic? no. I am not "Phobic". What I am is deeply concerned by LGBT's constant and consistent need to molest children, why are they in the preschools, kindergarden, the schools, The game stores, invading the hobbies, invading theme parks? why? Through the actions of LGBT anyone can see the truth. LGBT is P, as in PEDOPHILES.

7. You don't have a problem with me. You have a problem with being caught. You have a problem with BEING a STEREOTYPE. I don't care what you pretend to be, I'm not your problem. YOUR PROBLEM IS REALITY.
So, go f*** yourself.

This is "Anti-woke".

Damn guy! Too bad you for banned because I have to say battlelords of the 23rd century checks most all the boxes you listed.

It's a 90s game, stats have number values that translate into real values for weight when it comes to strength.

Gender is generally moot. There is an all female  non humanoid player race that is somewhat sexist against males.

Gender identity, homo/hetero/bi is simply not mentioned much. 90s game, remember?

There is still racism, but not human on human racism, it should be called specism. Many races/species have hostility towards others. The Fott species was engineered to be racist bigots. Individuals can have their own feelings and attitudes towards others . In the military all are expected and commanded to operate together regardless of species.

There's such a thing as being crippled due to injruy, but there's none of this ableist stuff.  You get crippled, you can get bionics, of even regrow most of your body with high medical tech.  The setting  basically disposes of the ableist issue.

Sexism is not a factor,  one can assume only physically capable people will become mercs.

Abuse is part of the game. Having an abusive corporate shitweasel for a boss is a popular meme ib BL.

Yes, this game passes your test for being non woke.

Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Battlemaster on June 16, 2022, 02:07:10 AM
Just saw what you got banned for. Yeah, that was pretty foul.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Svenhelgrim on June 16, 2022, 06:12:26 AM
Sounds like a gimmick.  I would rather buy a game because of it’s good rules, and setting. By billing it as non-(insert political agenda) means it is just another propaganda piece only aimed in a different direction.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: zircher on June 16, 2022, 11:32:38 AM
Indeed, I want to play a game that is not part of 'The Game.'  :-)

Would I look at a non-Woke game?  Sure, just as I look at many woke titles.  But it is the merits of the game that earn my money.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on June 16, 2022, 03:54:08 PM
  I think we got the answer to this with Dwarrowdeep and it's creator saying he was not interested in having any politics in his games.  A few people canceled, and support poured in, despite him getting poo poo'd by the usual suspects.   The fact he has a nice catalogue of what seem to be excellent products mattered first, but because he did have that, his stance did not cost him anything, and appears to have increased his reach and appeal. 
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: FingerRod on June 16, 2022, 04:09:49 PM
  I think we got the answer to this with Dwarrowdeep and it's creator saying he was not interested in having any politics in his games.  A few people canceled, and support poured in, despite him getting poo poo'd by the usual suspects.   The fact he has a nice catalogue of what seem to be excellent products mattered first, but because he did have that, his stance did not cost him anything, and appears to have increased his reach and appeal.

Yes. What I learned there was:

Make cool stuff
Tell the screaming children to be quiet
Profit
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Zelen on June 16, 2022, 09:42:48 PM
  I think we got the answer to this with Dwarrowdeep and it's creator saying he was not interested in having any politics in his games.  A few people canceled, and support poured in, despite him getting poo poo'd by the usual suspects.   The fact he has a nice catalogue of what seem to be excellent products mattered first, but because he did have that, his stance did not cost him anything, and appears to have increased his reach and appeal.

Yup. This strategy will work well for people with a good record. Got my attention in a positive way.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Cathode Ray on June 18, 2022, 07:53:07 PM
Sounds like a "normal" game then at the store.  The more adjectives and things you say are NOT there the less there actually is.


Don't put a Sensativity Disclaimer at the front of the product. You've just made it "Non-Woke" right there.
Not necessarily.  I collect classic cartoons, and the DVDs usually have these disclaimer on their products.  Some even have woke racists like Whoopi Goldberg reciting the disclaimer before you can get to the menu.  I don't think WB's DVD sales were hurt by this.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: rickss on June 19, 2022, 07:13:04 PM
If a game went out of its way to bill itself as "non-woke"?  I wouldn't even bother picking it up from the shelf, because I'd presume the game designers went out of their way to be offensive.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Zelen on June 19, 2022, 09:27:43 PM
If a game went out of its way to bill itself as "non-woke"?  I wouldn't even bother picking it up from the shelf, because I'd presume the game designers went out of their way to be offensive.

lol
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Chris24601 on June 20, 2022, 08:52:29 AM
You don’t even need to market your stuff as non-woke directly. Just make some comments about not letting politics get in the way of game design and the Woke will take care of your anti-Woke billing for you free of charge.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on June 20, 2022, 09:33:12 AM
If a game went out of its way to bill itself as "non-woke"?  I wouldn't even bother picking it up from the shelf, because I'd presume the game designers went out of their way to be offensive.

  The term is taken to be neutral, and you are right there are a bunch of people who feel neutrality is very offensive.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on June 20, 2022, 09:34:32 AM
  Non woke does not mean attempting to be offensive....it simply means you are not planning on aggressive signaling and preaching...which is what woke is.  Woke is not "doing the right thing" it is screeching about people "doing the wrong thing".
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Eirikrautha on June 20, 2022, 09:53:51 AM
If a game went out of its way to bill itself as "non-woke"?  I wouldn't even bother picking it up from the shelf, because I'd presume the game designers went out of their way to be offensive.
That's funny, especially from someone with "SS" in their board name.  What is it you admire about the Schutzstaffel, Rick SS?  (Welcome to the world of the woke... where everything goes under the microscope and is viewed in the most harmful way possible...)
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: jmarso on June 20, 2022, 12:05:07 PM
OK picture if you wil,l a RPG comes out and the ads for it say clearly it is "non woke"? The writers declare it non woke. They say they avoided the woke agenda when they wrote it.


I've always said that when making a product you want other people to buy, it never helps you to deliberately alienate or anger part of your potential customer base. It's just shooting yourself in the foot from a business standpoint.

Make the non-woke product you want to make, and let it sell itself without the extra fanfare. The customers and the market will make the final judgment on it. You might even score one on those woke snowflakes when they buy the product and then decide they hate it because it isn't woke enough. Why forewarn them and take away any chance of a righteous karma-smite?
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: The Spaniard on June 20, 2022, 01:29:56 PM
If a game went out of its way to bill itself as "non-woke"?  I wouldn't even bother picking it up from the shelf, because I'd presume the game designers went out of their way to be offensive.

Offensive because real world politics and ideology weren't deliberately inserted into the game to push an agenda?  Right...
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Zelen on June 20, 2022, 04:42:32 PM
OK picture if you wil,l a RPG comes out and the ads for it say clearly it is "non woke"? The writers declare it non woke. They say they avoided the woke agenda when they wrote it.


I've always said that when making a product you want other people to buy, it never helps you to deliberately alienate or anger part of your potential customer base. It's just shooting yourself in the foot from a business standpoint.

There are numerous Woke extremist-targeting products that have succeeded precisely because they are polarizing and deliberately antagonize normal people. Not saying this works in every circumstance, but it will work if people are passionate enough about something.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: rickss on June 20, 2022, 06:18:49 PM
If a game went out of its way to bill itself as "non-woke"?  I wouldn't even bother picking it up from the shelf, because I'd presume the game designers went out of their way to be offensive.

Offensive because real world politics and ideology weren't deliberately inserted into the game to push an agenda?  Right...
I didn't say it was offensive. I'm saying if someone goes out of their way to point out something is "non-woke" odds are good they're trying to make a point, and likely trying to be offensive. Which I don't care for.   Odds are high enough that it's not worth my time to check it out.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: rickss on June 20, 2022, 06:30:43 PM
  Non woke does not mean attempting to be offensive....it simply means you are not planning on aggressive signaling and preaching...which is what woke is.  Woke is not "doing the right thing" it is screeching about people "doing the wrong thing".
I know what it means. I know it doesn't mean "attempting to be offensive". But if someone is going out of their way to point it out? *shrug*  Odds are (spectacularly) good they're using the "non-woke" label to justify being offensive, not signaling neutrality. Why would they have bothered otherwise?
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Shasarak on June 20, 2022, 06:34:41 PM
  Non woke does not mean attempting to be offensive....it simply means you are not planning on aggressive signaling and preaching...which is what woke is.  Woke is not "doing the right thing" it is screeching about people "doing the wrong thing".
I know what it means. I know it doesn't mean "attempting to be offensive". But if someone is going out of their way to point it out? *shrug*  Odds are (spectacularly) good they're using the "non-woke" label to justify being offensive, not signaling neutrality. Why would they have bothered otherwise?

Non-woke just means non-shit.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Gegilles on June 20, 2022, 10:18:39 PM
You can usually tell by the cover art or the author.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Spinachcat on June 21, 2022, 02:08:53 AM
I don't want MY own politics inserted in a RPG.

I don't need my ideology represented in a RPG...EXCEPT by the virtue that my own RPG would have zero woketard bullshit.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Orphan81 on June 22, 2022, 02:10:29 PM
It would be just as stupid, hamfisted and dumb as all the games that bill themselves as "Woke". If you make your games good enough and fun enough, you can subtly put in your world view without it bothering anyone for years....Decades even as long as it's fun.

Whitewolf was always the Progressive game company, and lots of conservatives still loved their games. Hell they even had conservative employees back in the day who were line developers (though Libertarian is probably more accurate for Bill Bridges)

They lost the plot in later years, especially in the 2nd edition era of Chronicles of Darkness. I couldn't even get past the introduction to Geist 2e because it kept going on about how "This is a game about speaking truth to power, about fighting against injustice, ect ect" when I was like.. "Fuck I just wanted a game about Ghosts man.."

Also thanks to certain people like Mathew McFarland turning into an extreme wokist to cover up his horrendous behavior, and this began to reflect in his product like... "Beast" which was a complete mess...

Mostly though, you can put your politics in your game if your smart and your game is fun, and if they're not to extreme on one end or the other. But any game that came out the gate with, "WE'RE THE NONWOKE ROCKSTARS!" I'd be highly suspect and think most likely it would suck.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Battlemaster on June 23, 2022, 12:57:15 AM
Speaking of woke in games how's call of cthulhu doing? I mean the version set in the 20's-30's, when racism, sexism, anti semitism, anti catholicism,  anti Mormonism, anti homosexualism and, let's fucking face it, anti everyone who wasn't a straight  WASP male was rampant and legal in america.

I'm trying to imagine how the woke collective would react to a game that was set in that era and was even vaguely faithful to the setting unless at least  40% of the text was endless condemnations of the time the game was set in.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 23, 2022, 08:02:43 AM
Speaking of woke in games how's call of cthulhu doing? I mean the version set in the 20's-30's, when racism, sexism, anti semitism, anti catholicism,  anti Mormonism, anti homosexualism and, let's fucking face it, anti everyone who wasn't a straight  WASP male was rampant and legal in america.

I'm trying to imagine how the woke collective would react to a game that was set in that era and was even vaguely faithful to the setting unless at least  40% of the text was endless condemnations of the time the game was set in.
They've been trying, with limited success, to wokeify it.

The problem is that (a) classic CoC is a period piece and there's only so much you can deviate from the historical setting before it starts sliding into alt-universe territory. Yes, PCs can be unusual specimens or representatives, but you can't escape the zeitgeist. And (b), much of the opposition in CoC doesn't give a shit what your race is (outside of Deep Ones, who just want to fuck human girls and spawn hybrids) or your pronouns. They're just going to kill you or drive you mad.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: VengerSatanis on June 23, 2022, 09:57:37 AM

Pretty sure my last two DTRPG releases were both labeled as "non-woke"... and look what happened.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: KindaMeh on June 23, 2022, 09:59:36 AM
I guess Dwarrowdeep is also an interesting case study, looking at that thread. They even reference the potential relevance to this one there.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Battlemaster on June 23, 2022, 11:21:17 AM
Speaking of woke in games how's call of cthulhu doing? I mean the version set in the 20's-30's, when racism, sexism, anti semitism, anti catholicism,  anti Mormonism, anti homosexualism and, let's fucking face it, anti everyone who wasn't a straight  WASP male was rampant and legal in america.

I'm trying to imagine how the woke collective would react to a game that was set in that era and was even vaguely faithful to the setting unless at least  40% of the text was endless condemnations of the time the game was set in.
They've been trying, with limited success, to wokeify it.

The problem is that (a) classic CoC is a period piece and there's only so much you can deviate from the historical setting before it starts sliding into alt-universe territory. Yes, PCs can be unusual specimens or representatives, but you can't escape the zeitgeist. And (b), much of the opposition in CoC doesn't give a shit what your race is (outside of Deep Ones, who just want to fuck human girls and spawn hybrids) or your pronouns. They're just going to kill you or drive you mad.

Thank you for the answer .

I read a review of CoC 7e and man, sounds like chaosium assraped the pooch on the game system. I was always a fan of BRP, loved it.

The review if 7e said nothing about woke but the system made me honestly say aloud ''what the FUUUCK? ' when I read about it.

Yeesh, why do companies have a good system that works fine then feel a need to fuck it up just to 'change' it?  Is Tzeentch at work here?
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 23, 2022, 12:18:47 PM
Speaking of woke in games how's call of cthulhu doing? I mean the version set in the 20's-30's, when racism, sexism, anti semitism, anti catholicism,  anti Mormonism, anti homosexualism and, let's fucking face it, anti everyone who wasn't a straight  WASP male was rampant and legal in america.

I'm trying to imagine how the woke collective would react to a game that was set in that era and was even vaguely faithful to the setting unless at least  40% of the text was endless condemnations of the time the game was set in.
They've been trying, with limited success, to wokeify it.

The problem is that (a) classic CoC is a period piece and there's only so much you can deviate from the historical setting before it starts sliding into alt-universe territory. Yes, PCs can be unusual specimens or representatives, but you can't escape the zeitgeist. And (b), much of the opposition in CoC doesn't give a shit what your race is (outside of Deep Ones, who just want to fuck human girls and spawn hybrids) or your pronouns. They're just going to kill you or drive you mad.

Thank you for the answer .

I read a review of CoC 7e and man, sounds like chaosium assraped the pooch on the game system. I was always a fan of BRP, loved it.

The review if 7e said nothing about woke but the system made me honestly say aloud ''what the FUUUCK? ' when I read about it.

Yeesh, why do companies have a good system that works fine then feel a need to fuck it up just to 'change' it?  Is Tzeentch at work here?
You could write a damned doctoral thesis on 'why do people mess with a good thing?'.

Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: zircher on June 23, 2022, 12:29:40 PM

Pretty sure my last two DTRPG releases were both labeled as "non-woke"... and look what happened.

To be honest, they're more like anti-woke.  When you make fun of the thin-skins, they go REEEEE at warp speed.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: oggsmash on June 23, 2022, 12:33:04 PM
Speaking of woke in games how's call of cthulhu doing? I mean the version set in the 20's-30's, when racism, sexism, anti semitism, anti catholicism,  anti Mormonism, anti homosexualism and, let's fucking face it, anti everyone who wasn't a straight  WASP male was rampant and legal in america.

I'm trying to imagine how the woke collective would react to a game that was set in that era and was even vaguely faithful to the setting unless at least  40% of the text was endless condemnations of the time the game was set in.
They've been trying, with limited success, to wokeify it.

The problem is that (a) classic CoC is a period piece and there's only so much you can deviate from the historical setting before it starts sliding into alt-universe territory. Yes, PCs can be unusual specimens or representatives, but you can't escape the zeitgeist. And (b), much of the opposition in CoC doesn't give a shit what your race is (outside of Deep Ones, who just want to fuck human girls and spawn hybrids) or your pronouns. They're just going to kill you or drive you mad.

Thank you for the answer .

I read a review of CoC 7e and man, sounds like chaosium assraped the pooch on the game system. I was always a fan of BRP, loved it.

The review if 7e said nothing about woke but the system made me honestly say aloud ''what the FUUUCK? ' when I read about it.

Yeesh, why do companies have a good system that works fine then feel a need to fuck it up just to 'change' it?  Is Tzeentch at work here?
You could write a damned doctoral thesis on 'why do people mess with a good thing?'.

  they like to call it "progress" and the people who engage in it all the time like to call themselves "progressives", and as such "progress" can never, ever stop.
Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Battlemaster on June 23, 2022, 01:00:01 PM

Pretty sure my last two DTRPG releases were both labeled as "non-woke"... and look what happened.

Well, to get honest when you take a name like yours you are basically sticking your chin out and pointing to it.

I mean there's a difference between being honest and expressing a view some people disagree with and deliberately provoking hostility.

Title: Re: what do you think would happen if a game was billed as "Non woke"?
Post by: Zalman on June 23, 2022, 02:58:32 PM
If a game isn't beholden to Wokeness, that's great. But billing it as such? Well ... virtue signaling is virtue signaling, and it's all gross, regardless of the supposed virtue being trumpeted.