What makes the Traveller setting appealling to you? I don't care which version of the Traveller rules you're using; this is a question about the setting.
I've been invited into a friend's Traveller game. He's a good GM, and I've played in several of his games over the past 25 years, but this one is causing me to hesitate. Why? Because I just don't find anything interesting in the Charted Space setting. So, am I missing something? What makes the setting click for you?
Traveller's charted space is very much set up for planet of the week style games. The broad Imperium gives continuity but each world is a new and unique situation. The setting itself is open to adapting a wide range of sf stories. Star Wars, Dune, and Alien can all be easily fit into the broader context. A rebellion against the empire can be set during the reign of a bad emperor or just a bad sector Arch Duke. A noble house can be given a land grant on a desert world that's the source of a valuable resource be it psionic drugs or anagnathics or both and have to deal with treachery and intrigues. A ship's crew can pick up a deadly alien parasite that metastasizes into a killing machine. Star Trek style exploration is harder to do but patrolling the border works well. Especially on the Solomani Rim or the Spinward Marches.
To my mind focussed settings work for short and focussed campaigns. The Third Imperium is more like a kitchen sink D&D setting, you can drop just about anything into it. You could even do a Warhammer 40000 inspired game involving a pocket empire where technolgy has declined and a horrible theocratic dictatorship has taken over.
Traveller's 'setting' is really in the system/world generation tables, it is very much a bottom-up, hex-crawl type game & setting. The Imperium is a very loose overarching conceit.
The appeal is inversely proportional to the amount of "canon Charted Space" used, either as a player or Ref. As a player much would depend on how closely (literally and figuratively) to Charted Space the Ref was going to run in: I find the setting more constraining the closer to canon one plays, and much more interesting the farther one gets from canon.
Do you know which sector or sub-sector the Ref is going to run in, or the basic premise of the game? A game premised on a freewheeling band of adventurers in Far Frontiers or Beyond sectors is very different from the same band on Capital, even hewing closely to canon.
Does the Ref plan to use any house rules for the setting, like expanded psionics or "space magic" (e.g., Flynn's Guide to Magic in Traveller, or any number of such variants for Cepheus Engine)? Or do you have any input into variant careers, cultures or species? I'd find it more appealing if I could introduce non-canon ideas (e.g., a Brother Battle inspired by Fading Suns, or a Priest of the Godstar from the Cepheus Engine product).
I agree with HappyDaze. I know Traveller is popular, but I see nothing about it that makes me want to play it. Other sci-fi settings have more interesting gimmicks.
I've played Traveller a lot. What I actually liked about it was the hard(ish) sci-fi and the way the tech was set up. It all felt very believable and well realized.
It felt like it could be a viable future as opposed to something like Starwars or some other off-the-wall sci game. Not that there is anything wrong with that style either. Plus, you've got so much material to use and abuse.
Not my favorite rule system but it's certainly serviceable. I'd probably veer towards something like M-Space.
I always liked the Zhodani as a concept. A bunch of telepathic eugenicists who manage to build a stratified society where everyone is honest. It's nice and weird and gives them a cool "these guys are human but also alien" vibe.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 27, 2022, 07:46:29 AM
I've played Traveller a lot. What I actually liked about it was the hard(ish) sci-fi and the way the tech was set up. It all felt very believable and well realized.
It felt like it could be a viable future as opposed to something like Starwars or some other off-the-wall sci game. Not that there is anything wrong with that style either. Plus, you've got so much material to use and abuse.
Not my favorite rule system but it's certainly serviceable. I'd probably veer towards something like M-Space.
What is it about the tech you like? When I asked my GM, he said "It's not about tech, it's about people" which made me feel like the sci-fi was just going to be a skin over "retirees in their (space) winnebago."
The GM loves the character creation mini-game it has, and that part is a hard fail for me. I simply don't find it interesting or necessarily, and I worry that the "coolest" part of the game will be over before play begins.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 27, 2022, 11:10:45 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 27, 2022, 07:46:29 AM
I've played Traveller a lot. What I actually liked about it was the hard(ish) sci-fi and the way the tech was set up. It all felt very believable and well realized.
It felt like it could be a viable future as opposed to something like Starwars or some other off-the-wall sci game. Not that there is anything wrong with that style either. Plus, you've got so much material to use and abuse.
Not my favorite rule system but it's certainly serviceable. I'd probably veer towards something like M-Space.
What is it about the tech you like? When I asked my GM, he said "It's not about tech, it's about people" which made me feel like the sci-fi was just going to be a skin over "retirees in their (space) winnebago."
The GM loves the character creation mini-game it has, and that part is a hard fail for me. I simply don't find it interesting or necessarily, and I worry that the "coolest" part of the game will be over before play begins.
Hah... That's quite interesting. I always found the character creation part of the game the most boring. I found it tedious to roll to see if you 'could' enter or stay in a particular career role. The characters all felt quite generic. So once I get that out of the way I'm good to go.
On the tech side, it is purely personal. It just felt realistic and I also felt you could see something similar in our own future. It was all based on some kind of theory. Rather than them thar' dilithium crystals. It's also not too high and won't overpower the players. That is to say, it's not easy for the players to acquire state-of-the-art tech.
Feels like you playing a gritty space adventure as opposed to a glossy high-tech sci-fantasy.
The Official Traveller Universe is a great place to start. Just pick what general kinds of games you want to run using the system and there is a subsector or sector made that you can use.
Can't find the perfect sector or subsector? Then there are rules that allow you to make one up. There is even a specific "Referee's Preserve" sector that you can use, it is called the Foreven Sector and can be downloaded for free here:
https://www.farfuture.net/FFEForevenSectorReserve2008.pdf
Is the Third Imperium too much or too little of an interstellar government? You decide. Officially, the Third Imperium governs the space between worlds but not the worlds themselves unless it must, which is left deliberately vague so that you can have the background you need for whatever games you wish to run.
As a Referee, you can tailor it to however you want. As a Player, you have got to trust the Referee. Do they run good games? Have you enjoyed their games? Then go for it! Do they suck as a GM? Can they only run lame-ass scripted dungeon crawls? Then you'd better pass on it.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 27, 2022, 02:56:52 PM
The Official Traveller Universe is a great place to start. Just pick what general kinds of games you want to run using the system and there is a subsector or sector made that you can use.
Can't find the perfect sector or subsector? Then there are rules that allow you to make one up. There is even a specific "Referee's Preserve" sector that you can use, it is called the Foreven Sector and can be downloaded for free here:
https://www.farfuture.net/FFEForevenSectorReserve2008.pdf
Is the Third Imperium too much or too little of an interstellar government? You decide. Officially, the Third Imperium governs the space between worlds but not the worlds themselves unless it must, which is left deliberately vague so that you can have the background you need for whatever games you wish to run.
As a Referee, you can tailor it to however you want. As a Player, you have got to trust the Referee. Do they run good games? Have you enjoyed their games? Then go for it! Do they suck as a GM? Can they only run lame-ass scripted dungeon crawls? Then you'd better pass on it.
What kind of high-tech stuff is generally available? What about non-human characters? I know that aliens are largely sidelined, and AI are not a common thing, so androids are pretty much out. Does the Imperium actually show tech or even social development, or has it been largely stagnant for a long time?
While you say it can do anything (more for just having open spaces rather than having much nailed down), what does it do better than a more focused setting?
Okay, so Traveller postulates that the discovery of FTL and antigravity are just around the corner we're TL 8 they show up at TL9. This assumption makes space travel relatively cheap and easy. Laser weapons show up at roughly the same time but are too heavy to be used much by infantry as anything other than designating targets. The most common weapons are slug throwers with advanced combat rifles and rocket assisted multipurpose grenades being the mainstays of most TL 8 - 12 armies. The Imperium goes as high as TL15 with improved materials and techniques, gauss weapons and powered armour become standard plasma weapons are used by powered armour because they're basically fusion rockets and the recoil, radiation, and heat are prohibitive for unarmoured troops. At the imperium's very peak a decent infantry plasma rifle is just becoming available.
Grav tanks armed with plasma cannon and with laser point defense systems are the standard from TL 9 on but they're fairly slow and lumbering at that point. TL 15 grav tanks drop out of orbit at mach 2.5, and hug the earth at 300kph.
In space, ships use reactionless gravitic drives and jump drives, jump drives take a week to get anywhere always but at TL 9 you can go one parsec in that week and at TL 15 you can go six. Travel is relatively slow. There's no other FTL communications than courier ships. There are no force fields but lasers are used to shoot down missiles and sand casters are used to difuse lasers. Most warships are built around a huge particle accelerator or meson gun. Advanced worlds have underground meson gun sites for planetary defense. The armour is made of advanced materials that can take a hit. Nuclear dampers project a field that stabilizes atomic nucli. There are a handful of "black globe generators" that project a force field but you can't see out of it and if it absorbs enough fire to overload the capacitors they explode.
Medical science is quite advanced and clones, custom races, and biotech all exist. The Imperium has deliberately avoided AI where possible. There are institutes that study it but it's not a popular concept. The Hivers and Villani use more robots.
The only teleportation available is psionic in nature and Zhodani elite teleport commandos are scary. The ancients vanished 200000 years ago but left a few artificats around, personal disintegrators, force fields, planet buster bombs and all sorts of nasty things are still lying around from their final war.
Does the Imperium's tech really change though? It seems like it was ALWAYS around TL 14-15 as far as I've known. There doesn't seen like there are any ways to grow the tech that really matters. Even in the example above, a gun is a gun, whether it shoots bullets, plasma, or zappy light...it's still just a gun.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 27, 2022, 04:57:05 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 27, 2022, 02:56:52 PM
The Official Traveller Universe is a great place to start. Just pick what general kinds of games you want to run using the system and there is a subsector or sector made that you can use.
Can't find the perfect sector or subsector? Then there are rules that allow you to make one up. There is even a specific "Referee's Preserve" sector that you can use, it is called the Foreven Sector and can be downloaded for free here:
https://www.farfuture.net/FFEForevenSectorReserve2008.pdf
Is the Third Imperium too much or too little of an interstellar government? You decide. Officially, the Third Imperium governs the space between worlds but not the worlds themselves unless it must, which is left deliberately vague so that you can have the background you need for whatever games you wish to run.
As a Referee, you can tailor it to however you want. As a Player, you have got to trust the Referee. Do they run good games? Have you enjoyed their games? Then go for it! Do they suck as a GM? Can they only run lame-ass scripted dungeon crawls? Then you'd better pass on it.
What kind of high-tech stuff is generally available? What about non-human characters? I know that aliens are largely sidelined, and AI are not a common thing, so androids are pretty much out. Does the Imperium actually show tech or even social development, or has it been largely stagnant for a long time?
While you say it can do anything (more for just having open spaces rather than having much nailed down), what does it do better than a more focused setting?
Like I said, a lot depends on the Referee. Depending on what the group of players want, you can go full cyberpunk with the high-tech. Aliens are fairly well detailed because Traveller tends to hate "humans in funny rubber suits" so players should read up on an alien race to get the full enjoyment out of playing one (the Vargr and Aslan are not just dog-men and cat-men furries because there have been over 500,000 words written about each alien race over the years). Artificial intelligence and androids have been around since Classic Traveller, though they are optional to the Official Traveller Universe.
Now social development is typically limited to individual worlds and is dependent on the definition of social development for that world. The Third Imperium (if the game is set there) is only concerned with the subjects set out in the Warrant of Restoration detailed below:
https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Warrant_of_Restoration
The Traveller wiki is a great resource.
Now, why is the OTU a better setting than anything else? Well, if you like science fiction and not science fantasy, then just about any setting can be placed in the Traveller universe. If you like science fantasy, then you are better off with Star Wars.
The advantage of not having every little detail nailed down is that it gives the Referee the wiggle room to be able to customize their Traveller universe to whatever they and their players want to play in.
The Third Imperium goes from 12 - 15 before it collapses. At the end they're building primitive black globes, fusion rifles, dabbling in psionic tech and AI, and closing in on the 'hop drive' an exponential improvement over the jump drive. The technological improvements are often to exisiting systems. Megatraveller's vehicle design rules do a good job of showing this in the charts. Your radio gets smaller, your armour gets tougher, your weapon gets more shots.
The tricky thing is that most of the worlds in the Third Imperium are TL 6 - 10. That's generally representative of on world manufacturing capabilities though worlds with really low populations are usually outposts from higher tech worlds. A big part of Traveller is rationalizing the weirder world code outcomes. But the vital thing to understand is that the Imperium is really an economic hegemony controlled by a handful of high population TL 14-15 worlds. One of the things that makes the setting playable is that not every world can hunt you down with fusion gun armed grav pods, the player characters have access to a technological advantage much of the time.
The artifacts and prototypes give the PCs something resembling magic item treasures.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 27, 2022, 09:43:27 PMWell, if you like science fiction and not science fantasy, then just about any setting can be placed in the Traveller universe. If you like science fantasy, then you are better off with Star Wars.
I would say, rather any story can be placed in the Traveller universe, there are often broad, sweeping setting details that don't fit but character's and plot lines are easy to fit in.
How does the setting handle development of tech outside its usual bounds? For example, can a brilliant scientist PC hope to develop FTL comms, an alternate FTL (such as one that doesn't require massive sections of the ship devoted to fuel), transporter/teleportation technology, energy-to-matter transformation (replicators)replicator, time travel, or mind/body transfers?
That's pretty much left to the referee. However, T5 and Marc Miller's Traveller Novel, Agent of the Imperium, feature chip jacks and recorded personalities that can be swapped in and out of them. T4's Pocket Empires book had rules for raising the Tech Level of an entire planet.
I wrote a lot of rules for things like scientific research for my own Galaxies In Shadow rules because I generally feel it's a topic sfrpgs haven't developed much. When people say having a rule for everything is a bad thing I generally think that GMs feel it's a bad thing because it takes away their ability to say 'no' to things they don't want to deal with.
Traveller is a really good system to play in the settings of certain sci fi books that are among my favorites. If I were to run a game I'd keep the system, but use the setting of Poul Anderson's Poleseotechnic League, or Andre Norton's Zero Stone, Moon of Three Rings, and Solar Queen books, or Pournelle's Falkenberg's Legion books, or Weber & Ringo's "Empire of Man" books. Or just build my own setting following the tone fo those books. I'm most familiar with LBB and I'm not really familiar with the setitngs of the later books, but you wouldn't even have to remove much from the LBB setting, just add other things on top of it.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 27, 2022, 10:28:55 PM
How does the setting handle development of tech outside its usual bounds? For example, can a brilliant scientist PC hope to develop FTL comms, an alternate FTL (such as one that doesn't require massive sections of the ship devoted to fuel), transporter/teleportation technology, energy-to-matter transformation (replicators)replicator, time travel, or mind/body transfers?
In short, it doesn't.
FTL comms really fucks up the OTU, because one of the lynchpins of the OTU is that communications only travel at the speed of the fastest ship. There are alternate FTL drives already covered in Mongoose Traveller (both versions) and if you want to borrow from T5, you can use a collector and power your jump drive without fuel (like the Annic Nova). Time travel rules and dimensional travel rules are in the MgT 1e book Psionics (so you can fuck around with Doctor Who bullshit). Transporter/Replicator technology is not covered because post-scarcity economies are impossible (there will always be something scarce). Downloading your intellect into another body has been around since Classic Traveller and is covered under androids as optional.
Of course, all of the above starts getting into science fantasy a la Star Trek.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 27, 2022, 09:48:47 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 27, 2022, 09:43:27 PMWell, if you like science fiction and not science fantasy, then just about any setting can be placed in the Traveller universe. If you like science fantasy, then you are better off with Star Wars.
I would say, rather any story can be placed in the Traveller universe, there are often broad, sweeping setting details that don't fit but character's and plot lines are easy to fit in.
It is really really hard to run Star Wars or Star Trek using Traveller. The game system does not emulate the genre very well.
HappyDaze, why are you asking these questions of us and not asking the guy who is going to be running your game?
Absolutely nothing. My assumption, based on public rhetoric, the rules and game were sooo wedded to the system I actually never considered using it for my own science fiction campaigns. Now I know CT inside and out and love the system for certain flavors of sci-fi I like to run, but I still see no use in the pedestrian setting known as the Third Empirium. I shit more interesting universes into my toilet bowl every morning.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 28, 2022, 01:14:25 AM
HappyDaze, why are you asking these questions of us and not asking the guy who is going to be running your game?
I'm looking for a broad array of input. I do plan to ask the GM for more specifics, but I was looking for some hope that the sci-fi elements would be strongly supported within the setting so that I'm not fighting it when I don't want to play a retiree boating about space in my space winnebago (the model of the two Traveller games I've played).
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 28, 2022, 05:09:17 AM
I'm looking for a broad array of input. I do plan to ask the GM for more specifics, but I was looking for some hope that the sci-fi elements would be strongly supported within the setting so that I'm not fighting it when I don't want to play a retiree boating about space in my space winnebago (the model of the two Traveller games I've played).
The sci-fi elements of the Charted Space setting have been well addressed, but the retiree concern sounds more like an issue with the rules, where all characters "muster out" by default. Rather than leaving a career at the end of chargen ask the Ref if they'd consider simply starting the campaign at the end of your PC's last term: still active Army, Navy, etc.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 28, 2022, 05:09:17 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 28, 2022, 01:14:25 AM
HappyDaze, why are you asking these questions of us and not asking the guy who is going to be running your game?
I'm looking for a broad array of input. I do plan to ask the GM for more specifics, but I was looking for some hope that the sci-fi elements would be strongly supported within the setting so that I'm not fighting it when I don't want to play a retiree boating about space in my space winnebago (the model of the two Traveller games I've played).
You know, if your Referee can't make the game interesting, then it doesn't matter what game system or setting is used. Likewise, if you have had bad experiences in the past and are convinced that the game and setting is not for you, then it will suck regardless of how enjoyable it can be.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 28, 2022, 05:52:42 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 28, 2022, 05:09:17 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 28, 2022, 01:14:25 AM
HappyDaze, why are you asking these questions of us and not asking the guy who is going to be running your game?
I'm looking for a broad array of input. I do plan to ask the GM for more specifics, but I was looking for some hope that the sci-fi elements would be strongly supported within the setting so that I'm not fighting it when I don't want to play a retiree boating about space in my space winnebago (the model of the two Traveller games I've played).
You know, if your Referee can't make the game interesting, then it doesn't matter what game system or setting is used. Likewise, if you have had bad experiences in the past and are convinced that the game and setting is not for you, then it will suck regardless of how enjoyable it can be.
I think here it's more of the latter. The GM has been good in the past, but I'm having a very hard time finding interest in the Traveller setting. He has several other games he's discussed in passing that I'd be far more interested in playing. Another of the prospective players has said the same thing to me, and we're going to talk to the GM again on Monday. Unless the GM has a really awesome pitch and can make the setting and game theme seem interesting, I'm probably best off taking a pass on this.
Traveller is not the Third Imperium role playing game, although it can be.
The original version had no setting and liberally stole its rules tropes from the sci fi MWM had read over the years. There is nothing to stop a referee changing rules, building their own settings, whatever you want (in point of fact there is an example of building your own setting in LBB:0)
I have used CT plus a variety of bits borrowed from other iterations of Traveller and other games entirely to run a lot of different settings...
Star Wars, Star Trek, BSG, Blake's 7, Stainless Steel Rat, Deathworld, Dune, PFH Commonwealth and Confederation universes, The Culture and a few more that I can't think of at the moment off the top of my head.
As to the OTU, I have run adventures in an early version of the Third Imperium, during the Hard Times era following the Rebellion, and a Star Viking series of adventures in the TNE. My longest running campaign is a planet of the week type set up set during a long night.
What I like about Traveller is that it is pretty rules light and can be adapted to do just about anything I have thrown at it over the years.
Quote from: Anfelas on August 28, 2022, 08:02:31 AM
Traveller is not the Third Imperium role playing game, although it can be.
The original version had no setting and liberally stole its rules tropes from the sci fi MWM had read over the years. There is nothing to stop a referee changing rules, building their own settings, whatever you want (in point of fact there is an example of building your own setting in LBB:0)
I have used CT plus a variety of bits borrowed from other iterations of Traveller and other games entirely to run a lot of different settings...
Star Wars, Star Trek, BSG, Blake's 7, Stainless Steel Rat, Deathworld, Dune, PFH Commonwealth and Confederation universes, The Culture and a few more that I can't think of at the moment off the top of my head.
As to the OTU, I have run adventures in an early version of the Third Imperium, during the Hard Times era following the Rebellion, and a Star Viking series of adventures in the TNE. My longest running campaign is a planet of the week type set up set during a long night.
What I like about Traveller is that it is pretty rules light and can be adapted to do just about anything I have thrown at it over the years.
I would gladly play 2300 AD with the Traveller rules over the default Third Imperium. For that matter the only mainline Traveller that appealed to me was TNE with the RCES/Star Vikings, but my GM doesn't like that period.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 27, 2022, 12:46:53 AM
What makes the Traveller setting appealing to you?
HappyDaze,
It might be what it is not: it is not Star Wars or Star Trek, with all of the baggage and problems that those settings entail. But to be more precise, here's what I like:
1. Age of Sail. With No FTL comms, messages travel only as fast as the fastest ship, which creates a retro feel for a game set in the far future. Even moreso if the game is about piracy or privateering. It's possible to outrun any crimes you might commit, at least for a while.
2. Human-centric. Yeah, Traveller has aliens, but they seem more like NPC options to me. This takes the focus away from "What kewl powerz does my guy have?" and brings it closer to home. "Who am I, and what's going on here?" That taps into a larger issue than setting elements, more on the premise of the game, which is a separate conversation.
3. Not about tech. Sure, high tech is out there and the players might seek it out. Or not. But the default assumption is that the players start with a ship, firearms, and blades. It brings the game down to earth. Instead of looking for tech to solve every problem (e.g. Star Trek) players need to focus on schemes and plans.
4. Psionics. Many people hate psi, but I actually like it so long as it is low key and illegal. Again, no Kewl Powerz, this isn't a superhero game. But something that creates conflict and opens up adventure possibilities (e.g. Babylon 5.)
5. Small ships, but not starfighters. What I'm talking about here is that the standard setup is for the players start with a small ship (scout, free trader, lab ship, etc.) and start exploring the galaxy. It's not dogfights in space (e.g. Star Wars) or carrier battles (e.g. BSG.)
6. Nobility. It reminds me of Dune, with noble houses engaged in centuries-long schemes. Again, sort of a retro feel, opens up all kinds of campaign ideas.
7. Freedom. When I was younger, I looked at my first Traveller character and thought "44? Who wants to play a character who is that old?" LOL. But Traveller characters are RETIRED. They've done their time, worked for the Man, and now it's all about what they WANT to do rather than what they HAVE to do. Hopefully, what they want to do is go on adventures and make some money.
It sounds overdone by this point, and many Traveller grognards may balk, but the sci-fi franchise that checks a lot of these boxes is Firefly. Retired military takes legit jobs when they can, commits crimes when they must-- anything to keep the ship flying.
What is appealing about it all?
The emphasis on high spirited Free Trade and swashbuckling in a world with spaceships and starships.
Its the joy of unfettered capitalism whilst traveling the stars.
-Edmund
Quote from: Aglondir on August 28, 2022, 10:52:20 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 27, 2022, 12:46:53 AM
What makes the Traveller setting appealing to you?
HappyDaze,
It might be what it is not: it is not Star Wars or Star Trek, with all of the baggage and problems that those settings entail. But to be more precise, here's what I like:
1. Age of Sail. With No FTL comms, messages travel only as fast as the fastest ship, which creates a retro feel for a game set in the far future. Even moreso if the game is about piracy or privateering. It's possible to outrun any crimes you might commit, at least for a while.
2. Human-centric. Yeah, Traveller has aliens, but they seem more like NPC options to me. This takes the focus away from "What kewl powerz does my guy have?" and brings it closer to home. "Who am I, and what's going on here?" That taps into a larger issue than setting elements, more on the premise of the game, which is a separate conversation.
3. Not about tech. Sure, high tech is out there and the players might seek it out. Or not. But the default assumption is that the players start with a ship, firearms, and blades. It brings the game down to earth. Instead of looking for tech to solve every problem (e.g. Star Trek) players need to focus on schemes and plans.
4. Psionics. Many people hate psi, but I actually like it so long as it is low key and illegal. Again, no Kewl Powerz, this isn't a superhero game. But something that creates conflict and opens up adventure possibilities (e.g. Babylon 5.)
5. Small ships, but not starfighters. What I'm talking about here is that the standard setup is for the players start with a small ship (scout, free trader, lab ship, etc.) and start exploring the galaxy. It's not dogfights in space (e.g. Star Wars) or carrier battles (e.g. BSG.)
6. Nobility. It reminds me of Dune, with noble houses engaged in centuries-long schemes. Again, sort of a retro feel, opens up all kinds of campaign ideas.
7. Freedom. When I was younger, I looked at my first Traveller character and thought "44? Who wants to play a character who is that old?" LOL. But Traveller characters are RETIRED. They've done their time, worked for the Man, and now it's all about what they WANT to do rather than what they HAVE to do. Hopefully, what they want to do is go on adventures and make some money.
It sounds overdone by this point, and many Traveller grognards may balk, but the sci-fi franchise that checks a lot of these boxes is Firefly. Retired military takes legit jobs when they can, commits crimes when they must-- anything to keep the ship flying.
This is actually VERY helpful. Thank you.
Unfortunately, the points mentioned are largely things I don't want in a sci-fi game. In particular, points 1, 2, 3, 6, and 7 along with the whole "retro sci-fi feel" are what I'm not looking for in a sci-fi game. Your post has helped me to organize/itemize my objections to the setting that I'll be discussing with the GM next week (he can't make it tomorrow, so one of the other players and I will be blowing up some ships in a game of Federation Commander).
EDIT: Added 3 to the above list of points that indicate Traveller's setting is not for me.
Quote from: Koltar on August 28, 2022, 10:56:01 PM
What is appealing about it all?
The emphasis on high spirited Free Trade and swashbuckling in a world with spaceships and starships.
Its the joy of unfettered capitalism whilst traveling the stars.
-Edmund
Yeah, and that's definitely NOT what I'm looking for in a sci-fi game right now.
But Traveller can be about other things. One of the subplots of Agent of the Imperium is about a guy who hosted the agent chip for a while going through dementia and one day he wakes up as the agent and the agent falls in love and goes on vacation. Traveller can be about people on the human scale. The imperial stuff is generally pretty far above what affects the player characters. But even on that level there's stuff like Arch Duke Noris and his Psionic aide and lover and his clone daughter. Strephon's desire to stop Lucan and Dulinor's pure terror of Strephon getting in the way of what could have been the alliance that ended the war that destroyed the third Imperium. It's the rebel reporter hounding Illiek Kulligan about his parking fines. The adventures of the cast of DGP's Grand Tour. Somehow Traveller manages to lose these human stories in its endless compressed strings of data. *
Megatraveller certainly tried to humanize the factions in the side bars but the real masterwork was Survival Margin.
The Third Imperium is like a canvas or maybe a bulletin board where stories happen.
*what every you do, don't suggest to Marc Miller that there should be a lifestory hexidecimal string.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 28, 2022, 11:58:02 PM
But Traveller can be about other things.
Sure, but as Aglondir said previously, it's "age of sail, humanocentric, and not about the tech." These points are very similar to what my GM has said (less succinctly) he likes about the setting, so it's fairly unlikely that these elements will not be prevalent. Unfortunately, those features of the setting are more bugs in my eyes. Sure, I could try to enjoy it despite it being almost exactly what I'm not interested in playing, but that doesn't seem like a good use of my gaming time to me.
Quote from: Aglondir on August 28, 2022, 10:52:20 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 27, 2022, 12:46:53 AM
What makes the Traveller setting appealing to you?
HappyDaze,
It might be what it is not: it is not Star Wars or Star Trek, with all of the baggage and problems that those settings entail. But to be more precise, here's what I like:
1. Age of Sail. With No FTL comms, messages travel only as fast as the fastest ship, which creates a retro feel for a game set in the far future. Even moreso if the game is about piracy or privateering. It's possible to outrun any crimes you might commit, at least for a while.
2. Human-centric. Yeah, Traveller has aliens, but they seem more like NPC options to me. This takes the focus away from "What kewl powerz does my guy have?" and brings it closer to home. "Who am I, and what's going on here?" That taps into a larger issue than setting elements, more on the premise of the game, which is a separate conversation.
3. Not about tech. Sure, high tech is out there and the players might seek it out. Or not. But the default assumption is that the players start with a ship, firearms, and blades. It brings the game down to earth. Instead of looking for tech to solve every problem (e.g. Star Trek) players need to focus on schemes and plans.
4. Psionics. Many people hate psi, but I actually like it so long as it is low key and illegal. Again, no Kewl Powerz, this isn't a superhero game. But something that creates conflict and opens up adventure possibilities (e.g. Babylon 5.)
5. Small ships, but not starfighters. What I'm talking about here is that the standard setup is for the players start with a small ship (scout, free trader, lab ship, etc.) and start exploring the galaxy. It's not dogfights in space (e.g. Star Wars) or carrier battles (e.g. BSG.)
6. Nobility. It reminds me of Dune, with noble houses engaged in centuries-long schemes. Again, sort of a retro feel, opens up all kinds of campaign ideas.
7. Freedom. When I was younger, I looked at my first Traveller character and thought "44? Who wants to play a character who is that old?" LOL. But Traveller characters are RETIRED. They've done their time, worked for the Man, and now it's all about what they WANT to do rather than what they HAVE to do. Hopefully, what they want to do is go on adventures and make some money.
It sounds overdone by this point, and many Traveller grognards may balk, but the sci-fi franchise that checks a lot of these boxes is Firefly. Retired military takes legit jobs when they can, commits crimes when they must-- anything to keep the ship flying.
That's a very nice list - makes me want to grab my LBB books and run a few games. I think it could be summarized as "grounded sf," which is what I usually want in such a game.
Quote from: Koltar on August 28, 2022, 10:56:01 PM
What is appealing about it all?
The emphasis on high spirited Free Trade and swashbuckling in a world with spaceships and starships.
Its the joy of unfettered capitalism whilst traveling the stars.
-Edmund
Holy shit, that reads like a political statement.
I would vote for the Traveller party. Even if their promises of Fusion Plus [TM], Antigrav, and Jump Drive by 2030 was pure hogwash.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 29, 2022, 05:58:46 AM
Quote from: Koltar on August 28, 2022, 10:56:01 PM
What is appealing about it all?
The emphasis on high spirited Free Trade.......
Holy shit, that reads like a political statement.
Wasn't intended that way - but okay.
To me, that was the stuff that made it fun.
- Ed C.
Funny, I love the 3 LBBs and Cepheus Engine, but I'm not a fan of the Imperium. It's just too big and too much lore. The setting of a small crew on a small ship in a blue collar galaxy appeals to me. I also want to tell my our stories of exploration, first contact, and xeno archeology.
Quote from: Koltar on August 29, 2022, 10:27:56 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 29, 2022, 05:58:46 AM
Quote from: Koltar on August 28, 2022, 10:56:01 PM
What is appealing about it all?
The emphasis on high spirited Free Trade.......
Holy shit, that reads like a political statement.
Wasn't intended that way - but okay.
To me, that was the stuff that made it fun.
- Ed C.
That's a pretty lame bit of intellectual dishonesty you just posted.
And yet, that is very much what the Third Imperium is. The great laws are don't impede trade and don't use nukes on planets. It's a capitalist playground where the trillionaires gave themselves noble titles for kicks.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 29, 2022, 02:26:45 PM
And yet, that is very much what the Third Imperium is. The great laws are don't impede trade and don't use nukes on planets. It's a capitalist playground where the trillionaires gave themselves noble titles for kicks.
If you want it to be, then yes it is.
However, it isn't "unfettered capitalism" like Koltar said upthread. If it was, then the megacorporations would control all economic activity from the legitimate to the black markets and profit no matter what happens or who dies. The other alien governments would be victimized as often if not more often than the Third Imperium. It would be a far more dark future Cyberpunk kind of setting.
Did the Third Imperium start as "trillionaires with noble titles"? Yes, but that was not what it evolved in to (and it wasn't even that in the beginning of Milieu 0).
Now, as for calling Koltar out on his intellectual dishonesty, it is a lame attempt to edit your own post to say something different when the damn thing has been quoted and still exists upthread.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 29, 2022, 02:53:33 PM
However, it isn't "unfettered capitalism" like Koltar said upthread. If it was, then the megacorporations would control all economic activity from the legitimate to the black markets and profit no matter what happens or who dies. The other alien governments would be victimized as often if not more often than the Third Imperium. It would be a far more dark future Cyberpunk kind of setting.
Did the Third Imperium start as "trillionaires with noble titles"? Yes, but that was not what it evolved in to (and it wasn't even that in the beginning of Milieu 0).
Now, as for calling Koltar out on his intellectual dishonesty, it is a lame attempt to edit your own post to say something different when the damn thing has been quoted and still exists.....
Think I see the problem - your definition of 'capitalism' is wrong and biased.
There was no 'dishonesty' in what I said
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar on August 29, 2022, 03:10:54 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 29, 2022, 02:53:33 PM
However, it isn't "unfettered capitalism" like Koltar said upthread. If it was, then the megacorporations would control all economic activity from the legitimate to the black markets and profit no matter what happens or who dies. The other alien governments would be victimized as often if not more often than the Third Imperium. It would be a far more dark future Cyberpunk kind of setting.
Did the Third Imperium start as "trillionaires with noble titles"? Yes, but that was not what it evolved in to (and it wasn't even that in the beginning of Milieu 0).
Now, as for calling Koltar out on his intellectual dishonesty, it is a lame attempt to edit your own post to say something different when the damn thing has been quoted and still exists.....
Think I see the problem - your definition of 'capitalism' is wrong and biased.
There was no 'dishonesty' in what I said
- Ed C.
Yes there is you dense Klingon Kosplaying fuckwit. I'll make it simple for you to understand.
The intellectual dishonesty you display is here.
This is what you originally posted:
Quote from: Koltar on August 28, 2022, 10:56:01 PM
What is appealing about it all?
The emphasis on high spirited Free Trade and swashbuckling in a world with spaceships and starships.
Its the joy of unfettered capitalism whilst traveling the stars.
-Edmund
Then you modified your quote to make it read not so much like a political statement.
Quote from: Koltar on August 29, 2022, 10:27:56 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 29, 2022, 05:58:46 AM
Quote from: Koltar on August 28, 2022, 10:56:01 PM
What is appealing about it all?
The emphasis on high spirited Free Trade.......
Holy shit, that reads like a political statement.
Wasn't intended that way - but okay.
To me, that was the stuff that made it fun.
- Ed C.
That is what I call intellectual dishonesty.
Now, tell me what your definition of "unfettered capitalism" is and maybe we can have an honest conversation.
For Everyone's enjoyment - Here it is again:
The Traveller Universe?
What is appealing about it all?
The emphasis on high spirited Free Trade and swashbuckling in a world with spaceships and starships.
Its the joy of unfettered capitalism whilst traveling the stars.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar on August 29, 2022, 06:04:42 PM
For Everyone's enjoyment - Here it is again:
The Traveller Universe?
What is appealing about it all?
The emphasis on high spirited Free Trade and swashbuckling in a world with spaceships and starships.
Its the joy of unfettered capitalism whilst traveling the stars.
- Ed C.
And Mr. Ed sidesteps the question.
Before this turns into a clusterfuck about the nature of free trade, Id like to know what Happydaze likes in their Sci-Fi.
Just from curiosities sake.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 29, 2022, 06:35:47 PM
Before this turns into a clusterfuck about the nature of free trade, Id like to know what Happydaze likes in their Sci-Fi.
Just from curiosities sake.
That's a good question. It actually varies quite a bit. Looking at my shelf, most of it is fantasy, but I do have Cold & Dark (sci-fi horror), Coriolis, Eclips Phase, Polaris, Cyberpunk Red (I count cyberpunk in with sci-fi), along with Savage Rifts (sci-fi plus fantasy plus a bit of everything), Torg Eternity (sci-fi is just one part of it), and Star Trek. I like all of them for their own reasons, but no one of them is perfect for everything. What I don't like is a sci-fi setting where the sci-fi just feels like a skin over another type of game--for example, my own view of Traveller is that most of it could just as easily be done with island-hopping on a 17th century sailing ship.
But the islands wouldn't be so odd.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 29, 2022, 08:09:43 PM
But the islands wouldn't be so odd.
You also couldn't do maneuvers like a Sanger skip re-entry or jumping outsystem from a LaGrange point.
Quote from: Mishihari on August 29, 2022, 12:32:26 AM
That's a very nice list - makes me want to grab my LBB books and run a few games. I think it could be summarized as "grounded sf," which is what I usually want in such a game.
Thanks. "Grounded sci-fi" is a perfect description.
I did run ICE's Run Out the Guns for a couple months once. I'm afraid there's a few too many system holes to make a good campaign. Oh base prices for trade goods where are you? It was fun but not much like Traveller. The players took great delight in hunting down slavers and freeing their cargo but it didn't endear them to the port authorities anywhere they went so they did wind up constantly on the run one step ahead of the West India Trading Co.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 28, 2022, 10:59:53 PM
This is actually VERY helpful. Thank you.
Unfortunately, the points mentioned are largely things I don't want in a sci-fi game. In particular, points 1, 2, 3, 6, and 7 along with the whole "retro sci-fi feel" are what I'm not looking for in a sci-fi game. Your post has helped me to organize/itemize my objections to the setting that I'll be discussing with the GM next week (he can't make it tomorrow, so one of the other players and I will be blowing up some ships in a game of Federation Commander).
EDIT: Added 3 to the above list of points that indicate Traveller's setting is not for me.
Glad it helped clarify things. I found this list from Wikipedia, after I wrote mine. I doubt it will change your mind...
Quote from: WikipediaKey features
Commerce: Commerce is the major driving force of civilization.
Human-centric but cosmopolitan: The core rules focus on human characters, but there is support for using and playing aliens.
Limited communication: There is no faster-than-light information transfer – meaning no ansible, subspace radio or hyper-wave. Communication is limited to the speed of travel. Decisions are made on the local level rather than by a remote authority.
Morals and mortality: People remain people and continue to show courage, wisdom, honesty and justice, along with cowardice, deceit, and criminal behavior.
Sociological: Interstellar society is socially stratified (high, mid, and low passage; SOC (Social Status) is a primary character attribute). Affairs are often managed by independent nobility, who make use of classic titles such as Baron, Duke and Archduke.
So no game can emulate an entire genre and Traveller is no exception. I would not expect Lord of the Rings, Conan, and Norse deities to all be run in the same game system.
What was nice to me about Traveller is that it shifted the emphasis from character strength to exploration. Rewards were the ability to keep your ship flying despite all of the insane costs. Character generation meant you got a lot of hooks as to character background with no very little focus on character improvement. The stuff there was, early one, was stuff like trying to stick to an exercise program. It was really neat. You didn't level up your character, but instead explored a strange world. Now we know all of the secrets but, at the time, the alien races were really alien (not elves/dwarves but very different social organizations). The ancients were a much nicer feature before we knew their secrets.
It was like the old west and exploring a strange and different set of worlds. As a teenager I loved it. As an adult it was ok. If I did it again it would be in the context of a totally new and strange universe, with secrets still to discover.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 29, 2022, 08:07:59 PMTraveller is that most of it could just as easily be done with island-hopping on a 17th century sailing ship.
Im not sure what form of sci-fi/fantasy isn't just something based on the real world with a skin over it. Outside of pure speculative games like Eclipse Phase that are so beyond mundane experience that they implode under scrutiny.
While I haven't played traveller, it does sound it takes its world building seriously. As opposed to say Star Wars where you really could just replace the starships with regular ships or even cut them out completly, Traveller feels like its got more to its premise.
This isn't me trying to pick a fight mind you, I just like debate.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 27, 2022, 11:36:27 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 27, 2022, 11:10:45 AM
The GM loves the character creation mini-game it has, and that part is a hard fail for me. I simply don't find it interesting or necessarily, and I worry that the "coolest" part of the game will be over before play begins.
Hah... That's quite interesting. I always found the character creation part of the game the most boring. I found it tedious to roll to see if you 'could' enter or stay in a particular career role. The characters all felt quite generic. So once I get that out of the way I'm good to go.
My wife has never played Traveller -- but she's generated lots and lots of Traveller characters -- it's a whole game for her. It helps if you use later systems or classic supplements that add "special encounters" etc to the character generation that add more unique factors to the PC history, other than rank and titles and skill levels.
I find the system as a whole kind of clunky/slow, but fun.
I like that the setting is so flexible -- you can do law abiding or wild west or whatever without leaving "the setting".
Ditto, it's not just skill generation, but backstory and world building as well. I get a kick out of imagining how that character's story evolves.
I think one of the main draws of Traveller, Star Frontiers and Universe is that each captured the feel of space opera, exploration, travel, mercanteering, intrigue, etc, and does it right. They are all very flexible systems and settings allowing for any number of playstyles.
Were something like Star Wars fails as space opera but succeeds at space fantasy while Star Trek started off well but was more focused. Then started the slide into fantasy with TNG era.
The first three feel grounded. While Star Wars and Star Trek increasingly feel anything but.
Quote from: Omega on September 02, 2022, 08:02:15 PM
I think one of the main draws of Traveller, Star Frontiers and Universe is that each captured the feel of space opera, exploration, travel, mercanteering, intrigue, etc, and does it right. They are all very flexible systems and settings allowing for any number of playstyles.
Were something like Star Wars fails as space opera but succeeds at space fantasy while Star Trek started off well but was more focused. Then started the slide into fantasy with TNG era.
The first three feel grounded. While Star Wars and Star Trek increasingly feel anything but.
Omega,
Universe! That was SPI, right? Never got a chance to see it. Do you remember the game called Space Opera? We made characters and ditched it for Star Frontiers.
Quote from: Aglondir on September 03, 2022, 01:21:23 AM
Quote from: Omega on September 02, 2022, 08:02:15 PM
I think one of the main draws of Traveller, Star Frontiers and Universe is that each captured the feel of space opera, exploration, travel, mercanteering, intrigue, etc, and does it right. They are all very flexible systems and settings allowing for any number of playstyles.
Were something like Star Wars fails as space opera but succeeds at space fantasy while Star Trek started off well but was more focused. Then started the slide into fantasy with TNG era.
The first three feel grounded. While Star Wars and Star Trek increasingly feel anything but.
Omega,
Universe! That was SPI, right? Never got a chance to see it. Do you remember the game called Space Opera? We made characters and ditched it for Star Frontiers.
Space Opera was the first SFRPG I bought as a kid. I ditched it for Classic Traveller because Space Opera was a confused mess.
The fun thing about Space Opera is that it's built on top of the Space Marines miniatures game. Being an old school miniatures game, all the stats are in charts, so the Blaard in powered armour C's movement rate is on the movement chart. As such the GM NEVER needs to create stats for opponents.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 27, 2022, 12:46:53 AM
What makes the Traveller setting appealling to you? I don't care which version of the Traveller rules you're using; this is a question about the setting.
I've been invited into a friend's Traveller game. He's a good GM, and I've played in several of his games over the past 25 years, but this one is causing me to hesitate. Why? Because I just don't find anything interesting in the Charted Space setting. So, am I missing something? What makes the setting click for you?
The Traveller setting is boring when there are boring players at the table. If you can roleplay, find a group of roleplayers. Then you're hooked. No matter the planet you're on.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 27, 2022, 10:28:55 PM
How does the setting handle development of tech outside its usual bounds? For example, can a brilliant scientist PC hope to develop FTL comms, an alternate FTL (such as one that doesn't require massive sections of the ship devoted to fuel), transporter/teleportation technology, energy-to-matter transformation (replicators)replicator, time travel, or mind/body transfers?
Having no FTL comms is kind if a hard line for the traveller universe. If the speed of communication is limited to the speed of travel, the. You get a more 18th century Age Of Sail/far-flung empire vibe. A universe with FTL comms would be more like Star Trek or Star Wars.
Of course, you can introduce FTL comms, but you have to rework the universe. Taking into account the new parameters. The 3rd Imperium with FTL Comms would have a stronger central government since the Emperor could get news from all over the Imperium very quickly and dispatch agents or the military to handle the job.
But using the basic traveller rules, you could definitely build that universe. Some of the official Traveller adventures would probably still work, you'd just have to do some modding.
You could have a lot of fun with that. Of course, the fun for me would be in breaking it. Like setting up a FTL comm relay eats gas giants. Or FTL comm attracts beasties from beyond that are lured to the device like moths to a flame. Or, it's Ancient tech and there is only one pair of devices.
Quote from: zircher on September 19, 2022, 11:03:22 AM
You could have a lot of fun with that. Of course, the fun for me would be in breaking it. Like setting up a FTL comm relay eats gas giants. Or FTL comm attracts beasties from beyond that are lured to the device like moths to a flame. Or, it's Ancient tech and there is only one pair of devices.
Re: Lostech.
One part of the Official Traveller Universe (OTU) was the existence of a technologically advanced civilization called: The Ancients. Their magictech artifcats and sites can be found on many different worlds. The ANcients had FTL comms, and interdimensional travel, and many other miraculous divices. So OTU has you covered there.
There was even a race that blew up a star.