Quote from: ffilz;1008130D&D wound up with a large number of creatures for a couple reasons. The first reason is to provide creatures as different levels of challenge (this would have been better solved by giving creatures levels in some way) and the second, to create the unknown. I wonder how much the sense of the unknown really matters. Does it really work? The only real way to sustain that is to constantly make unique creatures,

Frank

The first reason has been solved by many games that scale opponents combat scores in some way.  I did this in my Beyond the Wall game. The whole range of kobolds, goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, and ogres were not separate monsters. They were different sizes and shapes of the faerie creatures known as "goblyns". Some were bigger, some were smaller, some hairy, some scaly. Much inspiration derived from Brian Froud and Labyrinth. Local villagers might call them any number of things, and I would freely mix them in encounters. Sometimes I would even give a tiny one the combat profile of a huge one or vice versa, just to keep the players on their toes.  But then, I never saw a reason why all orcs should always and forever be only 1 hit dice monsters.

As for creating a sense of the unknown, attempting this through the publication of new monster manuals is a fools errand. As soon as the book is available for purchase players will get their gruby little paws on it and read it. Then no more surprise or mystery.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1008167The first reason has been solved by many games that scale opponents combat scores in some way.  I did this in my Beyond the Wall game. The whole range of kobolds, goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, and ogres were not separate monsters. They were different sizes and shapes of the faerie creatures known as "goblyns". Some were bigger, some were smaller, some hairy, some scaly. Much inspiration derived from Brian Froud and Labyrinth. Local villagers might call them any number of things, and I would freely mix them in encounters. Sometimes I would even give a tiny one the combat profile of a huge one or vice versa, just to keep the players on their toes.  But then, I never saw a reason why all orcs should always and forever be only 1 hit dice monsters.

As for creating a sense of the unknown, attempting this through the publication of new monster manuals is a fools errand. As soon as the book is available for purchase players will get their gruby little paws on it and read it. Then no more surprise or mystery.

Yea, I think that's a good way to handle it. Allow for variation so if your game system needs creatures of different power, you simply set individual creatures at the power level you need. And if you really need mystery, then create it with variation, and like you did, either build that variation into the creature type, or create entirely new unique creatures.

But I've run plenty of games with not much mystery, or at least much mystery after players had met a given creature type. Depending on what the game is actually about, that may be fine.

Frank

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1008099With demi-humans, there a few major groupings like humans, elves, dwarves, etc and numerous ethnic groups under that.

If you have ever encountered the same problem, what did you do in response? Any interesting stories of monster variants you wish to share?

I removed all the humanoids, replaced them with just humans, and was done with it;).

Eh. There's like 20 different types of homo (er, the species that is) and that's in a world without gods and magic.

And when you look at folklore, basically every single culture or region has its own take on elves, dwarves, ogres etc

The reason that D&D has light elves, dark elves, woods elves, plains elves, sea elves, desert elves, this elves, that elves, and also for all kinds of other critters...

...is that books full of monsters sell.

Dave Duncan's world in A Man Of His Word has a bit of a different take.  The races are all humans.  Elves look young longer.  Imps are shorter.  Aesir are taller.  Pixies die when they tell you their name.  Stuff like that.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1008099With demi-humans, there a few major groupings like humans, elves, dwarves, etc and numerous ethnic groups under that. With humanoids, it seems like you cannot walk ten feet without running into a whole new race of them. Many of these races are fairly one-note and become boring and predictable after a while (particularly if you constantly memorize the monster books). This is a bit too extreme for my world building to account for, so I figured I would cut down the number of races by folding the similar races into subraces to keep the same XP values/CR ratings, which also makes the existing races more diverse and less predictable. Making variants of existing monsters is a tried and true method of making new monsters, even giving superior versions like the dracomera (to the point that it displaced the chimera in some editions) or regularized templates, so why equivocate? I often run into some obscure sourcebook that introduces a fascinating race that I want to keep, so making them all into subraces accomplishes my goal the most efficiently.

If you have ever encountered the same problem, what did you do in response? Any interesting stories of monster variants you wish to share?

Have the setting backdrop be a war to extinction. Genocide is your friend.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1008167Sometimes I would even give a tiny one the combat profile of a huge one or vice versa, just to keep the players on their toes.  But then, I never saw a reason why all orcs should always and forever be only 1 hit dice monsters.

I liked how this is handled in 3.x and Pathfinder, just give the humanoids NPC levels to match the PCs.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

I like subspecies.

Also, mutant versions.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1008167The first reason has been solved by many games that scale opponents combat scores in some way.  I did this in my Beyond the Wall game. The whole range of kobolds, goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, and ogres were not separate monsters. They were different sizes and shapes of the faerie creatures known as "goblyns". Some were bigger, some were smaller, some hairy, some scaly. Much inspiration derived from Brian Froud and Labyrinth. Local villagers might call them any number of things, and I would freely mix them in encounters. Sometimes I would even give a tiny one the combat profile of a huge one or vice versa, just to keep the players on their toes.  But then, I never saw a reason why all orcs should always and forever be only 1 hit dice monsters.

As for creating a sense of the unknown, attempting this through the publication of new monster manuals is a fools errand. As soon as the book is available for purchase players will get their gruby little paws on it and read it. Then no more surprise or mystery.

The Complete Guide to Fey did something similar. It posited that all fey fit into one four base races (hoofed grogan, mischievous puck, majestic sidhe, and bestial urchin), which give rise to the monsters seen thus far. Still, D&D has not been kind to fey by limiting them to sprites and Greek immortals, considering their diversity in mythology. Japanese fairies, or "yokai" (sp?), are very different to Western fairies. By far the least strange to Westerners would probably be the "jubokko", which a bloodsucking tree created by up-taking the blood from the soil of battlefields.

I've never had a problem with multiple races/species, to be honest.

If you have a mythical bent, then the gods created the races for whatever reason and they are just there.

The more I think about this, the more it has come to my attention that I just don't have this problem.

 In fantasy games, the humanoids themselves maintain a sense of racial purity and will try to eradicate any born that they think are too far removed from the tribal norm. Variances within races are taken care of "in house" that way. If the humanoids have enough of an egalitarian nature that they allow many different races to unite together in a nation, then that makes an excellent foe for the PCs to battle.

In science fiction, many races have never been that much of a problem. The only time it becomes difficult is when the general psychology or physiology of the races clash.

Quote from: jeff37923;1008202I liked how this is handled in 3.x and Pathfinder, just give the humanoids NPC levels to match the PCs.

Palladium Fantasy may have started that. But, yes, it's hard to believe in the context of the D&D rules that anyone with access to fireball and fly would ever be scared of an orc horde made up of 1 hit die orcs.

Quote from: JeremyR;1008173Eh. There's like 20 different types of homo (er, the species that is) and that's in a world without gods and magic.

And when you look at folklore, basically every single culture or region has its own take on elves, dwarves, ogres etc

But how many variations that existed at the same time would have warranted a stat adjustment:p?

And while my culture has some of those, too, that's true. However, they're not presented in a way that suggests that using them in the same party as humans would be anything remotely resembling a good idea;).
Granted, there are exceptions, but those are best handled on a case-by-case basis.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1008195The reason that D&D has light elves, dark elves, woods elves, plains elves, sea elves, desert elves, this elves, that elves, and also for all kinds of other critters...

...is that books full of monsters sell.

I've always suspected that much:).
But that's not a reason for me to use them, more like the opposite.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1008314Palladium Fantasy may have started that. But, yes, it's hard to believe in the context of the D&D rules that anyone with access to fireball and fly would ever be scared of an orc horde made up of 1 hit die orcs.

Well, if that same caster doesn't have Protection from Normal Missile, he/she very well should, since every 20 orcs would score one missile hit:D!