Personally I think Shadowrun is less cyberpunk than CP2020. But still cyberpunk overall. But there were times when it could and did feel like anything but. Luckily for me those times were just about zero.

C P2020 is cyberpunk kitchen sink. If you can pull it off with tech or biotech then anything was possible. And like D&D, you could trim it into various emulations.

Which is why I think so many fans enjoy it more than Shadowrun. Probably helped by SR's gradual slippage from its origins.

In my mind, the whole debate is a lot of navel gazing. SR is "cyberpunk, with magic." Is that still cyberpunk? Make up your own mind. Gygax/Arneson D&D was "fantasy, with gonzo space ship wreckages". Traveller and Star Trek are "science fiction, with psychic powers, and occasionally gods."

Quote from: CRKrueger;882346Remember though, it's not as if Shadowrun actually replaces any of that tech with magic.  It has all the tech, the corps, the whatever Cyberpunk 2020 has.

I think we're starting to go in circles, at least as far as my argument goes. The existence of magic itself makes it sci-fantasy to me. If you have to explain anything in the setting by using magic instead of technology, you've already left the realm of sci-fi.

Shadowrun may incorporate Cyberpunk, but that's different than being cyberpunk.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882346Pointed ears and reading minds - If I say Vulcan, science, if I say Elf, magic?
What if I say Homo Sapiens Nobilis?
Is it still science when Spock talks to the actual God Apollo?
Is Traveller magic because Zhodani?

Personally, I find that psionics puts things into sci-fantasy. Therefore, to me, Star Trek is sci-fantasy.

By that stick, so is Akira (blasphemy, right?). My favorite part of Akira is the first half anyway, before any of the meta-physical stuff enters the picture.

That being said, I can see why people seem to be more accepting of psionics in sci-fi. It's pseudo-science (parapsychology?), and it's semi-credible enough to have had both the Russian and U.S. government waste money investigating that.

You can't even say that for magic and elves. Not even x-file style nuts believe magic and elves are a potential reality being hidden by the government.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;882437In my mind, the whole debate is a lot of navel gazing. SR is "cyberpunk, with magic." Is that still cyberpunk? Make up your own mind. Gygax/Arneson D&D was "fantasy, with gonzo space ship wreckages". Traveller and Star Trek are "science fiction, with psychic powers, and occasionally gods."

These are all sci-fantasy.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;882437In my mind, the whole debate is a lot of navel gazing. SR is "cyberpunk, with magic." Is that still cyberpunk? Make up your own mind. Gygax/Arneson D&D was "fantasy, with gonzo space ship wreckages". Traveller and Star Trek are "science fiction, with psychic powers, and occasionally gods."

This. /thread

Quote from: CRKrueger;882346Remember though, it's not as if Shadowrun actually replaces any of that tech with magic.  It has all the tech, the corps, the whatever Cyberpunk 2020 has.

Pointed ears and reading minds - If I say Vulcan, science, if I say Elf, magic?
What if I say Homo Sapiens Nobilis?
Is it still science when Spock talks to the actual God Apollo?
Is Traveller magic because Zhodani?

That part where I said "setting matters" - yeah that.

Cyberpunk is a sub-genre of sci-fi. So as any sub-genre or whatever deviation one wants to use in the taxonomy of such categories, it exists because it has conceits that make it distinct. To what degree? That's the real question right?

So all of your examples above are not germane to this topic since Original Recipe Star Trek is not "cyberpunk". Is it sci-fi? Generally yes.

To purists, and I'm not sure I'd be a purist (I've delved into low-level psionics for kicks and giggles in my CP2020 after a drunken Scanner's binge) the inclusion of aliens, aliens posing as gods, fantasy creatures explained via science - moves out of the cyberpunk genre and into other sub-genres of sci-fi.

That make sense? Again, I'm not saying that SR doesn't DO cyberpunkish things (thematically or even overtly - it obviously does), hell, staying with your Star Trek notion, there are episodes of Enterprise, and TNG, DS9, and the original ST that all have cyberpunkish themes. But the setting itself - with the Federation, aliens etc. represents a future that goes beyond the the standard setting conceits of "cyberpunk" as a whole.

But c'mon... you knew that.

Quote from: Omega;882388Personally I think Shadowrun is less cyberpunk than CP2020. But still cyberpunk overall. But there were times when it could and did feel like anything but. Luckily for me those times were just about zero.

C P2020 is cyberpunk kitchen sink. If you can pull it off with tech or biotech then anything was possible. And like D&D, you could trim it into various emulations.

Which is why I think so many fans enjoy it more than Shadowrun. Probably helped by SR's gradual slippage from its origins.

Cyberpunk to me is a snapshot of time right before transhumanism really kicks off. It really does bleed into that. The first mention of bioware which really does allow you to do things that deviate from the alienating notion of artificial replacement of parts *as* a cultural norm - to the point where there is no technical difference between the organic/inorganic is where most cyberpunk ideas start to dissolve.

It's kinda funny because all the talk about SR *being* representative of cyberpunk is really closer, assuming people are sticking to their guns in order to debate the point that whether someone looks like an orc/elf/dorf etc. could be done with bioware, and that tech that is sufficiently advanced enough would be magic, as their talking points - to me places SR closer to transhumanism in a very narrow corridor of thought. Because the real question would be: do you think this is how that "tech-as-magic" would express itself in our culture?

No. But the conceit of SR isn't that, is it? It's expressed that way in the game for other purposes to justify its own existence. That's why it's science-fantasy.

CP2020 is supposed to pose itself as a possible dark future lensed through the mindset of a sub-genre of science-fiction novels, movies, music from the 80's and early 90's.

Edit: I'm also not sure more people enjoy CP2020 *more* than SR. I have no hard evidence of that, especially given the number of SR editions that exist. There are a *lot* of SR players out there that know SR and love it from the RPG, novels and videogames. CP2020 didn't get the same penetration. But I could be wrong.

Quote from: Itachi;882475

Quote from: Willie the Duck;882437In my mind, the whole debate is a lot of navel gazing. SR is "cyberpunk, with magic." Is that still cyberpunk? Make up your own mind. Gygax/Arneson D&D was "fantasy, with gonzo space ship wreckages". Traveller and Star Trek are "science fiction, with psychic powers, and occasionally gods."

This. /thread

No. This:

Quote from: tenbones;882493Cyberpunk to me is a snapshot of time right before transhumanism really kicks off. It really does bleed into that. The first mention of bioware which really does allow you to do things that deviate from the alienating notion of artificial replacement of parts *as* a cultural norm - to the point where there is no technical difference between the organic/inorganic is where most cyberpunk ideas start to dissolve.

It's kinda funny because all the talk about SR *being* representative of cyberpunk is really closer, assuming people are sticking to their guns in order to debate the point that whether someone looks like an orc/elf/dorf etc. could be done with bioware, and that tech that is sufficiently advanced enough would be magic, as their talking points - to me places SR closer to transhumanism in a very narrow corridor of thought. Because the real question would be: do you think this is how that "tech-as-magic" would express itself in our culture?

No. But the conceit of SR isn't that, is it? It's expressed that way in the game for other purposes to justify its own existence. That's why it's science-fantasy.

CP2020 is supposed to pose itself as a possible dark future lensed through the mindset of a sub-genre of science-fiction novels, movies, music from the 80's and early 90's.

Edit: I'm also not sure more people enjoy CP2020 *more* than SR. I have no hard evidence of that, especially given the number of SR editions that exist. There are a *lot* of SR players out there that know SR and love it from the RPG, novels and videogames. CP2020 didn't get the same penetration. But I could be wrong.

./thread.

Quote from: tenbones;882492But c'mon... you knew that.

Yeah, and I also know within the setting of Shadowrun I can run an adventure that as far as the Cyberpunk genre goes, can go toe to toe with Cyberpunk 2020.  

When it walks, quacks, eats, shits, breathes, and stinks like a duck, I'm not sure that it's 100% fair to call it "not a duck" because it's purple.

At what point are genetics on or off the table?  Uplifted Dolphins on because Johnny Mnemonic?  What if Gibson hadn't written Johhny Mnemonic, are uplifted Dolphins off the table now?

Genetic plague that scrambles people's brains and turns them into monsters that crave human flesh?  Even though 100% viable in most Cyberpunk worlds, is it not Cyberpunk because someone now known as a Mirrorshades author never wrote it down?

Is Shadowrun PURE CYBERPUNK, no, of course not, but saying it's not even part of the same genre is pretty silly, IMO, especially when some of the core technologies of the genre, like AI and a true machine to mind neural interface are at this point in our science as much pure "fantasy" as any form of FTL drive or most forms of Nanotech.

It's a sub-genre of Cyberpunk, one that yeah, does add fantasy, but attempts to do it in as scientific a way as possible.

We're getting into a Peanut Butter/Chocolate thing, but Shadowrun is a Cyberpunk center with a Fantasy coating.

the dolphin is a cybernetically enhanced animal. it's existence is a result of technology, not the reappearance of "mana lines" and such that don't even begin to qualify as pseudo-science.

nanotechnology may be "fantasy" (i call it extrapolation) right now, but probably so were computers, the ability to fly to the moon, and the internet at some point in our history. there has been research into neural interfaces for controlling limbs, and even craft.
it may turn out that the prediction of how cybernetics and nanotech are supposed to work will be a total miss.

However, you let me know if you think mana lines will, at some point in the future, be discovered, and whether people will start being born again as tolkienish looking equivalents as a result of some magical event.

Really, I don't think putting SR in the sci-fantasy category is unreasonable. Not only has the real world been slowly catching up to many Cyberpunk predictions, but the canon literature and the authors themselves draw this line.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882473I think we're starting to go in circles, at least as far as my argument goes. The existence of magic itself makes it sci-fantasy to me. If you have to explain anything in the setting by using magic instead of technology, you've already left the realm of sci-fi.

Shadowrun may incorporate Cyberpunk, but that's different than being cyberpunk.

Or, let me give an example that CRKrueger is going to recognize and understand:).

Compare and contrast the following statements. I agree with both in exactly equal measure, since they're structured in the exact same way:p.

• CP2020 and Shadowrun both have derived their themes from the cyberpunk genre, right? What does it matter that one of them also has magic, fucking elves, and dragons? They should all be considered the same thing! Why do you feel the need to say one is Cyberpunk (2020), and the other is Science Fantasy (SR)?
• All games have some means of action resolution to determine whether you succeeded, right? What does it matter that in some games the action also resolves whether the action resolves the underlying conflict, like shooting an apple to seduce a princess? They're both roleplaying games, and should be treated the same way! Why do you feel the need to say that one is a storygame?

Go ahead, CRKrueger, tell me whether I should agree with both, or disagree with both;)!

Quote from: AsenRG;882515Go ahead, CRKrueger, tell me whether I should agree with both, or disagree with both;)!

I already did when I said Shadowrun was not pure Cyberpunk.

Since you want to go there with mechanics...  

John Kim and I always go back to the Wine and Ketchup analogy (or when I'm being a dick, the shit in the ice cream analogy).  

One molecule of ketchup in the wine or enough ketchup that most people can't even taste it, probably doesn't matter.
You put a good squirt of ketchup in there, it pretty obviously becomes Wine with Ketchup, and no longer "Just Wine".
Unless you pour the glass into a tub and then fill the tub with ketchup, it will never become "Not Wine".

You start adding Narrative Mechanics into a Roleplaying Game, at some point you no longer have a Roleplaying Game, you have a Narrative Roleplaying Game.  You gotta go Full.Forge however, to get to some kind of Storygame that isn't roleplaying at all.

You start adding Fantasy elements into Cyberpunk, at some point you no longer have a Cyberpunk game, you have a Cyberpunk with Fantasy game.  You gotta basically eliminate everything Cyberpunk at all to get it to where you can call it "Not Cyberpunk at all".

Conan 2d20 is under no possible definition a "Roleplaying game" as opposed to "Narrative Roleplaying game".
Shadowrun is under no possible definition "not Cyberpunk at all" as opposed to "Cyberpunk with Fantasy".

Saying Shadowrun more properly belongs under Tolkien then Gibson just shows extreme ignorance of Shadowrun, Tolkien and Gibson.

Leche is doing the genre equivalent of saying all 2d20 discussions should be moved to the Other Games forum.

except there is already a well established term to describe such genre mashups (sci-fantasy), so why not acknowledge the difference and call it what it actually is? Cyberpunk doesn't capture what SR is-- sci-fantasy or cyberfantasy does.

I guess the thing that's important is how you break down genres, also how much do you care about style vs. substance or content vs. appearance.

What genre is the Sean Connery movie Outland?  A western with a Sci-Fi coat of paint, or a Science Fiction story (because space) that just happens to be a carbon copy of High Noon structure-wise?

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882526except there is already a well established term to describe such genre mashups (sci-fantasy), so why not acknowledge the difference and call it what it actually is? Cyberpunk doesn't capture what SR is-- sci-fantasy or cyberfantasy does.

That gets you to the argument that Shadowrun can't be good at Cyberpunk because it's not, it's essentially Tolkien hitting the tropes, which is horseshit.

The whole point of sub-genres is to include elements of the parent genre, yes? So Cyberpunk is a specific form of Sci-Fi, Sci-Fi and Fantasy are specific crossover forms of Speculative Fiction and Shadowrun is a specific form of Cyberpunk.

You want me to call it SRCP for short, I will, but nevertheless, it still hits some elements of the Cyberpunk genre harder than Cyberpunk 2020 does.

The correct term would be a space western.

If I was a fan of westerns and was recommended this movie as a 'western', without other identifying info, I would not be unjustified in expecting it to take place within the Mexico-South-West-US area, with a certain gun technology, and in a certain period.

Upon seeing that it takes place in outer space, I would probably think that being told it was a 'western' was at the very least incomplete, if not wrong. THat's why even modern era westerns are usually tagged as contemporary westerns.