Quote from: Omega;882610And so ArrozConLeche you show us why CP2020 sucks, what a liar Gibson is, and how cyberpunk really is fantasy.

A looser is you, and Gibson.

When you are done getting curbstomped by Krueger maybee you can actually describe all the things that make Cyberpunk2020 great and different from other cyberpunk RPGs. As opposed to making it look ever more pathetic and pedantic. Because those things are there to be extolled.

hahaha, you finally cracked. so much butthurt. too funny.

really, it doesn't hurt me if you insist on calling Shadowrun cyberpunk. I'm just of the opinion that you're wrong. apparently that hurts? sowee.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882524I already did when I said Shadowrun was not pure Cyberpunk.

Sorry, man, I've mixed you with someone else:).

QuoteShadowrun is under no possible definition "not Cyberpunk at all" as opposed to "Cyberpunk with Fantasy".

Saying Shadowrun more properly belongs under Tolkien then Gibson just shows extreme ignorance of Shadowrun, Tolkien and Gibson.

No, SR is clearly "cyberpunk with fantasy". It's just that cyberpunk is a sci-fi genre, in general, and when you mix any kind of SF with any kind of fantasy, you get...science fantasy, as a general term.
Whether it's cyberpunk fantasy, 70ies SF with wuxia and heroic fantasy (a.k.a. Star Wars) or technotrillers with wizards and werewolves, a.k.a. Poul Anderson's "Operation: Chaos"...it's all science fantasy;).

Quote from: Headless;882618Clearly you have a much more rigid and clearly defined understanding of genera and sub genera than most of the rest of us do.  If that's written down it would help me and I think others to see it.

Which genera and sub genera? I'm just saying there is a line between magic powered by "woo woo", magical mythical creatures, and technology. Don't you think there's a line?

QuoteIn in regards to you comment about outlander. And weather it was a western.  I was thinking about Fire fly.  If you look at the surface it's Science Fiction, it's in space right?  But if you look at the theams and core it's a western.  The core of science fiction is "take people.  Real people behaving in a real, human believable way, change something, meaning add a technology see what they do."  

To me, western as a genre occurs at a specific location and period of history. That's why most people qualify things like Fire Fly as space westerns and No Country For Old Men as contemporary/modern westerns. If I invited someone to come watch a western, and popped Fire Fly in, I'm pretty sure it would surprise them a little that I didn't specifically say it was a space western.

QuoteThe core of a western is about the loss  of a way of life as the frontier moves west and civilization displaces the gunslingers, and Indians.

If you were to recommend Fire fly you should know weather it was John Wayne and the ponies people liked, or the rugged individuals protecting the civilization that is displacing them.  

Or you know, you might also know that part of what makes a western movie a western movie is the visuals of that location, the time period, etc.

I just don't believe that because the same themes are addressed by a work of fiction, it automatically fits into a particular genre as such.

QuoteIf you wanted to draw a disctinction between rational and mystical thinking I could understand.  But their are a hell of a lot of mystics in Gibson.

Are the mystics showing magical powers that actually work at an objective level? I don't recall any, so help me out.

QuoteAlso I am very confused about the strict disctinction between magic and technology. They are both utterly make believe.

Well, one could be said to be make believe because it never has existed, and will never exist. The other could be said to be make believe because it doesn't exist YET. There is always the possibility until science invalidates the possibility for good.

At some point, it was probably somewhat of a possibility that there were martians in mars or venusians in venus. Now, I think that possibility has been completely invalidated. With cyberpunk, most of what has been invalidated are the anachronisms (like, you don't get your newspaper via fax, but on your phone).

As far as the mind/machine interface? I've already posted a link that says there is ongoing research on this that is actually on the way of making this a very real possibility. Other stuff like AI? Less so, but hasn't been completely invalidated yet. Mind uploading? Even less so, but hasn't been completely invalidated.

Magic fireballs? That hasn't been a possibility since the Renaissance, and I think I'm throwing you guys a huge bone even with that.If you want to treat both kinds of make believe as the same thing, though, be my guest.

Quote from: Headless;882618The core of a western is about the loss  of a way of life as the frontier moves west and civilization displaces the gunslingers, and Indians.

Where are the Indians in Firefly:D?

I know what you're saying. But there's also such a genre as Easterns, and the difference with Westerns is exactly that the setting is different;).

Quote from: AsenRG;882630Where are the Indians in Firefly:D?

The Reavers.  No, I'm not being facetious, but they are the 'savages' analog that a lot of people (when Westerns were popular) used to equate with Native Americans.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;882631The Reavers.  No, I'm not being facetious, but they are the 'savages' analog that a lot of people (when Westerns were popular) used to equate with Native Americans.

They're a Native Indian analogue, not Native Indians;). We could find other differences as well if we look at their role and compare it with the Native Indians' role.

But even doing that would equal missing the point of the post you replied to, so I'm not going to do it:D!

Quote from: tenbones;882616

Quote from: Omega;882610And so ArrozConLeche you show us why CP2020 sucks, what a liar Gibson is, and how cyberpunk really is fantasy.

A looser is you, and Gibson.

When you are done getting curbstomped by Krueger maybee you can actually describe all the things that make Cyberpunk2020 great and different from other cyberpunk RPGs. As opposed to making it look ever more pathetic and pedantic. Because those things are there to be extolled.

Now THIS is funny. hahahah!

Edit: I confess I did read it in my mind with a Cookie-monster voice.

Well, you know... Shadowrun fanboys are prone to...fantasy.:teehee:

Quote from: tenbones;882492To purists, and I'm not sure I'd be a purist (I've delved into low-level psionics for kicks and giggles in my CP2020 after a drunken Scanner's binge) the inclusion of aliens, aliens posing as gods, fantasy creatures explained via science - moves out of the cyberpunk genre and into other sub-genres of sci-fi.

By that definition after the first novel the Neuromancer trilogy isn't cyberpunk, which Can't be right. Nor Angel Station (though you might argue it's not, but I think you'd be wrong) or Richard Morgan's Kovacs trilogy which definitely includes aliens.

The presence of aliens doesn't negate it being cyberpunk, or if it does it takes out a lot of classics (we may have just lost Schismatrix too now I think about it).

Quote from: D-503;882655By that definition after the first novel the Neuromancer trilogy isn't cyberpunk, which Can't be right. Nor Angel Station (though you might argue it's not, but I think you'd be wrong) or Richard Morgan's Kovacs trilogy which definitely includes aliens.

The presence of aliens doesn't negate it being cyberpunk, or if it does it takes out a lot of classics (we may have just lost Schismatrix too now I think about it).

Schismatrix - Science Fiction. Not "cyberpunk" specifically.
Kovacs Trilogy - Transhumanist. Good series too! There's definitely overlap between CP and TH... this is definitely transhumanist.
Angel Station - I've already cited Williams as a seminal cyberpunk writer. But I'd say Angel Station is where the cyberpunk ends and the space-opera begins. And hey - THAT'S fine. That why I *said* I'm not a purist.

It's like talking about Dieselpunk and Steampunk and whatever-punk. It's a snapshot of time with it's own elements and conceits.

Is "Difference Engine" steampunk? to a lot of people it's *started* the Steampunk fad. Yet it wasn't intended to - rather it was alt-cyberpunk.

So that's my story. I'm sticking to it.

Edit: keep in mind, I'm just using labels as a reference point. I recognize times change. The Eagles... are they country? Are they rock? Well every True Scotsman knows they're rock. Then you listen to this shit that they call "country" today - and yeah.. it's like watered down rock trying to sound like the Eagles... so go figure.

I'd call Kovacs cyberpunk rather than transhuman, the first is basically a Neuromancer rerun. I wouldn't fight over the point though.

Differnce Engine is sui generis. Steampunk just apes some cool trappings while missing the entire point of all of it.

I think aliens in cyberpunk is fine provided they're alien aliens. A distant intelligence, a presence in the Oort cloud, fine. Your mate down the pub is one, might be fine but I think then I'd agree we've left the cyberpunk station.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882627Which genera and sub genera? I'm just saying there is a line between magic powered by "woo woo", magical mythical creatures, and technology. Don't you think there's a line?

Anyone remember the cartoon where a modern college science student gets sent back in time and turned into a dragon?  What was that called?  Any way this kid pisses off his dragon mentor by coming up with scientific expiration date for why magical things work.  Like saying fire rock is phosphorus.  "Shut up and eat your phosphorus". Man good times. Cyber punk? Who knows.  And no I don't see much difference between "woo woo" magic and tycacions or angling the deflector shield.  Sufficiently plot convient technology is indistinguishable from magic and all that

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882627To me, western as a genre occurs at a specific location and period of history. That's why most people qualify things like Fire Fly as space westerns and No Country For Old Men as contemporary/modern westerns.

I think No Country is more an inversion of a western.  But that is another thread.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882627Or you know, you might also know that part of what makes a western movie a western movie is the visuals of that location, the time period, etc.

I just don't believe that because the same themes are addressed by a work of fiction, it automatically fits into a particular genre as such.

If it's the visuals and period costumes.  Fire fly has them.  And to the second point.  I would just disagree.  To me, the the narrative meaning and purpose of elfs is more important than any auto felationatory explanation of where the elfs come from the author indulges in.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882627Are the mystics showing magical powers that actually work at an objective level? I don't recall any, so help me out.

Well no.  When they start doing that on a regular basis than they are scientists.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882627Well, one could be said to be make believe because it never has existed, and will never exist. The other could be said to be make believe because it doesn't exist YET. There is always the possibility until science invalidates the possibility for good.

At some point, it was probably somewhat of a possibility that there were martians in mars or venusians in venus. Now, I think that possibility has been completely invalidated. With cyberpunk, most of what has been invalidated are the anachronisms (like, you don't get your newspaper via fax, but on your phone).

As far as the mind/machine interface? I've already posted a link that says there is ongoing research on this that is actually on the way of making this a very real possibility. Other stuff like AI? Less so, but hasn't been completely invalidated yet. Mind uploading? Even less so, but hasn't been completely invalidated.

Magic fireballs? That hasn't been a possibility since the Renaissance, and I think I'm throwing you guys a huge bone even with that.If you want to treat both kinds of make believe as the same thing, though, be my guest.

This seems a fluid and arbitrary disctinction.  If I find a way to provably summon an extra plainar being, a daemon, than shadow run becomes cyber punk.  And AI and mind machine implants is proved impossible Neuromance becomes cyber fantasy?  

I find that unsatisfactory.

Quote from: tenbones;882616Now THIS is funny. hahahah!

Edit: I confess I did read it in my mind with a Cookie-monster voice.

Thanks.

But really. Tell me whats so great about the RPG rather than telling me how some other RPG sucks because having elves in it magically invalidates it.

For example. How does 2020's netrunning compare to Shadowruns? If the CCG was any indicator then it must have been more nuanced than Shadowruns?

Or how well does 2020 allow you to adventure outside the "mercenary crook" style of Shadowrun? Seems like it can handle playing a musician, a businessman, etc? Which are things Shadowrun would be harder pressed to handle.

and so on.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882619hahaha, you finally cracked. so much butthurt. too funny.

really, it doesn't hurt me if you insist on calling Shadowrun cyberpunk. I'm just of the opinion that you're wrong. apparently that hurts? sowee.

So in other words you fail.

You cant even describe in a positive way the game you are supposedly defending. You have to piss on someone elses game to make yours look good.

Keep struggling.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882619hahaha, you finally cracked. so much butthurt. too funny.

really, it doesn't hurt me if you insist on calling Shadowrun cyberpunk. I'm just of the opinion that you're wrong. apparently that hurts? sowee.

I have seen entirely too much of this behavior on this website. I really expect better of people than this.
Regardless, I hope you are aware that when you pull this 'I-declare-myself-the-winner,-and-that-my-opposition-is-"butthurt"' whinery, you pretty much insta-lose in the eyes of everyone else (you know it's true, think back to the last time someone else pulled it here. Did you respect it then?). Something to think on.

Cheers.

Quote from: Omega;882679Thanks.

But really. Tell me whats so great about the RPG rather than telling me how some other RPG sucks because having elves in it magically invalidates it.

I've said it's sci fantasy and that to the extent it includes fantasy magic elements , it undermines the cyberpunk elements. If your interpretation of that is that SR sucks rather than, you know, saying that SR is in its own genre, then that's your problem..

I've presented plenty of reasons as to why I believe that  and backed it with evidence. What have you done, besides take offense and get all huffy?

Oh, that's right. Nada.

By the way, I'm not even really trying to defend CP2020. I'm just questioning some of the claims. If the claims about SR had been about its cyberpunk parts in isolation from the magic elements, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, because I don't care. I just know that magic cannot make something more cyberpunk because magic is not a conceit of the genre.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;882691I have seen entirely too much of this behavior on this website. I really expect better of people than this.
Regardless, I hope you are aware that when you pull this 'I-declare-myself-the-winner,-and-that-my-opposition-is-"butthurt"' whinery, you pretty much insta-lose in the eyes of everyone else (you know it's true, think back to the last time someone else pulled it here. Did you respect it then?). Something to think on.

Cheers.

 Is whining like a petulant child because even your preferred game's own wiki SITE bills it as science  fantasy the kind of convincing argument you're looking for?