Quote from: AsenRG;881660..
That SR has elves and magic makes it different from pure cyberpunk, I'm not sure why that's so hard to accept.

Pure cyberpunk? I think I smell haggis...

I happen to love Cyberpunk 2013/2020 and the Shadowrun world, at least earlier incarnations of it.  Cyberpunk is certainly a large enough umbrella to keep each dry.

I also think Gibson is one of the best writers I've ever had the pleasure to read, but I don't take his personal opinions as holy writ and call out heresies based upon them.

Quote from: Brander;881799Pure cyberpunk? I think I smell haggis...

I happen to love Cyberpunk 2013/2020 and the Shadowrun world, at least earlier incarnations of it.  Cyberpunk is certainly a large enough umbrella to keep each dry.

I also think Gibson is one of the best writers I've ever had the pleasure to read, but I don't take his personal opinions as holy writ and call out heresies based upon them.

Well, "cyberpunk" vs "cyberpunk-inspired urban fantasy", if you prefer;).

I don't think Gibson is in my Top 10, and I'm not the one who quoted it. But I've been holding the same opinion long before I learned he agrees, which of course means he knows what he's talking about on that account:D!

Quote from: Headless;881764None of you have defined what cyber punk is.  I'm pretty sure i could run the most cyber punk imaginable game right in middle earth.  Either with the human numinorian kings getting their rings and becoming ring wraiths or in Suarmans domain as his mind is turning to wheals and gears.  But maybe not becuase no one has said what the defining charctrristis of the genera are.

I would quite like to read the post about how magic makes shadow run more cyber than 2020 but until we do no point in arguing with what we think he will put in there.

Part of that is describing what it isnt. It isn't Tolkien or magic, that's for sure.

You could argue there is room for some surrealism if you were to point at Bear's Petra (though that's more about mysticism , given that God died in that story; nothing about Tolkienish  fantasy). 400 Boyz has a surrealistic ending too, but no Tolkienish stuff. Gibson included a story in burning chrome  that was also urban weird; nothing about Tolkien or magic. City Come A'Walking, surrealistic elements explained as a Jungian  universal unconscious manifested physically, oh and the existence of an afterlife  ...and you guessed it...no out of place Tolkienish stuff or magic of that type.

The common thread in most cyberpunk (that  Ive been exposed to) is a human centered near future, usually with high technology, but sometimes more post apocalyptic (400 Boyz). Only three canon stories that I've read have any surrealistic elements.

If anyone else has read canon stuff that includes tolkienish  elements and fantasy magic, please chime in. I'm willing to be wrong if the canon proves me wrong.

Quote from: tenbones;881378I was remiss for not mentioning the 'Aubry Knight' series from Steven Barnes (he also co-wrote Dream Park with Larry Niven). But the "Streetlethal" books with Aubry Knight had a big impact on my cyberpunk sensibilities. Steve is a great guy. I met him once many years ago, and he was such a gracious guy.

Yay for mentions of Streetlethal, and the implied reference to Gorgon's Child.

I see I've missed a great deal of discussion about the definitions of Cyberpunk, and mentions of Transhumanism.  

I've discussed this here before, and probably better than I'm about to now, but I'd like to put my imprimatur on this discussion once more.

Cyberpunk directly addresses when technology begins to outstrip our humanity, and the subsequent consequences. Transhumanism is what happens after the people of a cyberpunk world begin making that same technology a part of their humanity... and the subsequent consequences.




Transhumanism tends to be lighter in tone, it seems more... hopeful, but I think that hope is fundamentally more a part of the cyberpunk genre, at least in the works of Gibson.  All of his works end in fundamentally transformative events which lead to the coming transhuman future, such as the Idoru using nanotech to become Real, or the AI's in Neuromancer having a baby, and thus proving they are 'alive'.

In a sense Cyberpunk often captures that 'darkest before the dawn' moment, while Transhuman fiction is set at, or just after that same dawn.  They are fundamentally related genres, though of course any individual setting/work can obviously ignore the connection.

That's as good a description of how those genres are related as one could reasonably fill in a forum post:).

:hatsoff:

thank you.  Its been a thought I've been banging on for years, so I should be able to express it clearly...

Then again, I don't know why I keep banging on it... I'm also (one of) the guy who tries to point out how Genre is entirely artificial, and any attempt to work based on genre, or critique from genre is doomed to mediocrity by default.  Genre is what gets applied AFTER a work of art is done.

Quote from: Brander;881799Pure cyberpunk? I think I smell haggis...

I happen to love Cyberpunk 2013/2020 and the Shadowrun world, at least earlier incarnations of it.  Cyberpunk is certainly a large enough umbrella to keep each dry.

I also think Gibson is one of the best writers I've ever had the pleasure to read, but I don't take his personal opinions as holy writ and call out heresies based upon them.

1: Im waiting for one of them to play the "True Fan" card.

2: Add in TORGs Cyberpapacy. Also dry under the umbrella.

3: I think Gibson is an ok writer who took a genre and expanded it. But he also comes across as a petty crook with delusions of self importance. At the end of the day hes just another Game Workshop.

Shadowrun is science fantasy:

http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

"Shadowrun is a science fantasy role-playing game set in a near-future fictional universe in which cybernetics, magic, and fantasy creatures co-exist."

http://shadowrun.gamepedia.com/Shadowrun_Returns

"Shadowrun Returns is a science fantasy turn based tactical role-playing game developed and self-published by Harebrained Schemes."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun

"Shadowrun is a science fantasy tabletop role-playing game set in a near-future fictional universe in which cybernetics, magic and fantasy creatures co-exist. It combines genres of cyberpunk, urban fantasy and crime, with occasional elements of conspiracy fiction, horror and detective fiction"

Quote from: Spike;881838I see I've missed a great deal of discussion about the definitions of Cyberpunk, and mentions of Transhumanism.  

I've discussed this here before, and probably better than I'm about to now, but I'd like to put my imprimatur on this discussion once more.

Cyberpunk directly addresses when technology begins to outstrip our humanity, and the subsequent consequences. Transhumanism is what happens after the people of a cyberpunk world begin making that same technology a part of their humanity... and the subsequent consequences.




Transhumanism tends to be lighter in tone, it seems more... hopeful, but I think that hope is fundamentally more a part of the cyberpunk genre, at least in the works of Gibson.  All of his works end in fundamentally transformative events which lead to the coming transhuman future, such as the Idoru using nanotech to become Real, or the AI's in Neuromancer having a baby, and thus proving they are 'alive'.

In a sense Cyberpunk often captures that 'darkest before the dawn' moment, while Transhuman fiction is set at, or just after that same dawn.  They are fundamentally related genres, though of course any individual setting/work can obviously ignore the connection.

Let me repeat what you just said:  Transhumanism is how science and tech will make us better.  Cyberpunk is how it won't.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881903Shadowrun is science fantasy:

http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

"Shadowrun is a science fantasy role-playing game set in a near-future fictional universe in which cybernetics, magic, and fantasy creatures co-exist."

http://shadowrun.gamepedia.com/Shadowrun_Returns

"Shadowrun Returns is a science fantasy turn based tactical role-playing game developed and self-published by Harebrained Schemes."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun

"Shadowrun is a science fantasy tabletop role-playing game set in a near-future fictional universe in which cybernetics, magic and fantasy creatures co-exist. It combines genres of cyberpunk, urban fantasy and crime, with occasional elements of conspiracy fiction, horror and detective fiction"

Fine we get it, you're afraid of getting your chocolate into the peanut butter.  Can we move on now?

This is about Cyberpunk 2020, not about some butthurt between SR and CP.

*SNICKER*

Quote from: Christopher Brady threw this hissy-fit:;881906This is about Cyberpunk 2020, not about some butthurt between SR and CP.

Talk to the people who inserted Shadowrun in a Cyberpunk  thread. Maybe they'll obey your authority, "boss."

Quote from: Christopher Brady threw this hissy-fit:;881906Fine we get it, you're afraid of getting your chocolate into the peanut butter.

Not the case. I might enjoy the mix just fine, but I don't call it something it isnt.

 

Quote from: Christopher Brady threw this hissy-fit:;881906Can we move on now?

Yes, you have my permission to move on  to another thread any time you want, whenever the facts being cited here are not to your liking.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881914Yes, you have my permission to move on  to another thread any time you want, if you don't like to see the facts being cited here.

I don't care the amount of padding this thread is getting because of the self-righteous butthurt it's getting.  Can we please keep it on topic?  There's an SR thread you can take all the exception to that's on the front page right now!  In fact the title has your dreaded "Oh NOES!  They're calling Shadowrun CYBERPUNK!  HOW COULD THEY! THE PHILISTINES!"  Go play there.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881915I don't care the amount of padding this thread is getting because of the self-righteous butthurt it's getting.  Can we please keep it on topic?  There's an SR thread you can take all the exception to that's on the front page right now!  In fact the title has your dreaded "Oh NOES!  They're calling Shadowrun CYBERPUNK!  HOW COULD THEY! THE PHILISTINES!"  Go play there.

Your impotent delusions of authority are pretty amusing. Good luck getting everyone on this thread to stay on the topic you u want.

And I'm now on topic, as you can see from the thread OP.so get your punk ass to another thread if others opinions hurt your fee fees, lol.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;827423According to a conversation posted in TBP:



I call bullshit. I don't see anything at all in its core about being that. I see rules for firefights, cyberdecking, etc. Hell, I don't even see what is being claimed above in the fluff surrounding it.

Am I blind?

Also ,  Shadowrun is science  fantasy .

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881661More to the point, I could sit down to write a short story about fairies and gnomes and bill it as cyberpunk. Would it be? So no, your argument must be resting on something else other than quasi identity politics.

And if said fairy is cybered to the gills and running an APC through a corporate office to express his irritation for being stuffed on payment for a delivery it isn't? I've had some fun with the concept, imagine the short guy from highschool with a chip on his should, halve his size, double the ego and plug him into a small army of drones and vehicles. Makes for funny results.

Here's what shadowrun does really well, it takes those themes from cyberpunk and projects them on a canvas that people don't personally associate with. Folks get a lot less defensive about issues such as poverty, inequality and exploitation when it's elves exploiting orcs and you can roll around in a whole host of things that would cause some folks heads to explode if you spoke about it in direct terms. When you have orks who have half the human life span and elves with double you can discuss inequality in the starkest of terms without much of anyone being able to raise a complaint.

Even magic is reduced as a means to an end, a poor kid with magic can either get himself owned by a corporation or use it as an edge to work the street. There is no wish spell in shadowrun.

The dragons or ancient elves who most resemble anything objectionable from Tolkien, now have to compete with every jackass with a missile launcher and a few of them have lost that bet. They're just another set of powers to undermine or be stomped on by. Lofwry for instance, great dragon, personally runs a megacorp, finances shadowruns occasionally to amuse himself and often sees it as a game. Not one he's going to let you win, but a past time for himself. He's adapted. It's the ones who didn't adapt to the cyberpunk world and it's power structures that ate a missile, and the world as a whole moved on.

The fantasy heightens the themes as it brings an even greater contrast with core conceits. At least as it's been used. Though the gamey approach of this latest edition has turned me off, and I've been making snide comments about 'technology is magic', the setting itself is hardly Tolkien fantasy.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881919Your impotent delusions of authority are pretty amusing. Good luck getting everyone on this thread to stay on the topic you u want.

And I'm now on topic, as you can see from the thread OP.so get your punk ass to another thread if others opinions hurt your fee fees, lol.

So, uh, you admit that Cyberpunk is fantasy? Right?