Quote from: tenbones on May 02, 2025, 12:45:26 PMTwo iterations of 3.x *did* do this: True20 and Fantasy Craft. Both are outstanding examples of what 3.x *could* have been. I'd argue to my dying days that Fantasy Craft should have been 4e.

If you get the chance and have the inclination, could you elaborate on this part.  I'm unfamiliar with both (True20 and Fantasy Craft) and was curious how they addressed 3.x issues.

Quote from: RNGm on May 02, 2025, 01:21:40 PM

Quote from: tenbones on May 02, 2025, 12:45:26 PMTwo iterations of 3.x *did* do this: True20 and Fantasy Craft. Both are outstanding examples of what 3.x *could* have been. I'd argue to my dying days that Fantasy Craft should have been 4e.

If you get the chance and have the inclination, could you elaborate on this part.  I'm unfamiliar with both (True20 and Fantasy Craft) and was curious how they addressed 3.x issues.

I'd second that request. I've been hearing for years how brilliant Fantasy Craft is. I've skimmed the rulebook on a couple of occasions, but it seems like something where a deep dive and probably some play experience is going to be necessary to really understand where it might be better.

Quote from: RNGm on May 02, 2025, 01:21:40 PM

Quote from: tenbones on May 02, 2025, 12:45:26 PMTwo iterations of 3.x *did* do this: True20 and Fantasy Craft. Both are outstanding examples of what 3.x *could* have been. I'd argue to my dying days that Fantasy Craft should have been 4e.

If you get the chance and have the inclination, could you elaborate on this part.  I'm unfamiliar with both (True20 and Fantasy Craft) and was curious how they addressed 3.x issues.

I know True20 pretty well. It was originally developed as the system for the Blue Rose RPG, and Pundit used it for some of his campaigns in the aughts and campaigned for it to be made into a generic system. These were my mechanics notes in my review of Blue Rose:

QuoteThe mechanics are dubbed the "True20" system, a variant of Wizards of the Coast's D20 system incorporating many changes used in Green Ronin's Mutants and Masterminds game. It uses only twenty sided dice (hence "True20"). The basic mechanic is to add attribute + skill + 1d20, and compare the total to a difficulty number. All rolls in this system follow that this approach.

This core mechanics is exactly the same as in other D20 games, but there are a number of distinct features. Compared to Dungeons & Dragons, the major differences are:

• There are only three broad classes (called "roles") - Adept, Expert, and Warrior. However, there are more feats -- a total of 132 including 56 role-specific feats.
• Skills are more simply chosen. You either have a skill or you don't. If you have a skill, it is at a fixed rank based on your level.
• Spells (called "arcana") are learned by taking Feats, and they require rolls to cast and avoid fatigue.
• Purchasing equipment is handled by an abstract Wealth stat rather than tracking specific coinage.
• There is a resource (called "conviction points") to spend to improve chances or otherwise accomplish heroic deeds. These are recovered by actions which furthers one's "Calling" in accordance with either one's "Light Nature" and "Shadow Nature". Each of these three traits is represented by a tarot card.
  
• There is a brief system for social interaction which rates attitude towards a person on a five-step scale (from "Hostile" to "Helpful").
• Combat options are simplified, removing attacks of opportunity and related feats. This greatly reduces the emphasis on map and miniature use.
• Damage is handled by rolling a Toughness stat + 1d20 and recorded as marks on a fixed wound track; rather than a variable number of hit points. Note that this eliminates all dice except for twenty-sided ones from the system.
• There is a fatigue system, and an option to use "Extra Effort" to gain a bonus on an action at the cost of losing a fatigue level.

Overall, I would say the rules are not significantly simpler than D&D. While they are streamlined in some ways, they are expanded in other ways (more feats, damage rules, fatigue rules). However, it is more elegant in many ways, which many will find appealing. The core D20 roll mechanic is much more emphasized -- using it for wealth, spellcasting, and damage. This is a crunchy game with a significant learning curve for those who aren't already familiar with the system.

I'm doubtful that it would be accepted as a new edition of D&D - particularly reducing all classes to Adept/Expert/Warrior and eliminating hit points.

You can browse the generic version of True20 at an SRD I made:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/srd/srd_true_generic/

There are still tons of people who want to play D&D 3.X/PF 1e. If Paizo had focused a little more on increasing accessibility for new players and GMs, they'd still be running that game now.

It really wouldn't hurt to make character folios with more intuitive character sheets for new players. Or make feat cards, skill cards, spell cards, magic item cards, and more.

Meanwhile, it wouldn't be the end of the world to provide the alternative of smaller and more streamlined stat blocks in adventure modules. Because, it can sometimes be difficult to stare at a giant wall of text.

PF 2e was a mis-step for Paizo. They abandoned a guaranteed audience (the 3.x crowd) for a giant unknown, in the form of Pathfinder 2e. That was a mistake.

Quote from: jhkim on May 02, 2025, 01:51:21 PMI know True20 pretty well. It was originally developed as the system for the Blue Rose RPG, and Pundit used it for some of his campaigns in the aughts and campaigned for it to be made into a generic system. These were my mechanics notes in my review of Blue Rose:

QuoteThe mechanics are dubbed the "True20" system, a variant of Wizards of the Coast's D20 system incorporating many changes used in Green Ronin's Mutants and Masterminds game. It uses only twenty sided dice (hence "True20"). The basic mechanic is to add attribute + skill + 1d20, and compare the total to a difficulty number. All rolls in this system follow that this approach.

This core mechanics is exactly the same as in other D20 games, but there are a number of distinct features. Compared to Dungeons & Dragons, the major differences are:

• There are only three broad classes (called "roles") - Adept, Expert, and Warrior. However, there are more feats -- a total of 132 including 56 role-specific feats.
• Skills are more simply chosen. You either have a skill or you don't. If you have a skill, it is at a fixed rank based on your level.
• Spells (called "arcana") are learned by taking Feats, and they require rolls to cast and avoid fatigue.
• Purchasing equipment is handled by an abstract Wealth stat rather than tracking specific coinage.
• There is a resource (called "conviction points") to spend to improve chances or otherwise accomplish heroic deeds. These are recovered by actions which furthers one's "Calling" in accordance with either one's "Light Nature" and "Shadow Nature". Each of these three traits is represented by a tarot card.
  
• There is a brief system for social interaction which rates attitude towards a person on a five-step scale (from "Hostile" to "Helpful").
• Combat options are simplified, removing attacks of opportunity and related feats. This greatly reduces the emphasis on map and miniature use.
• Damage is handled by rolling a Toughness stat + 1d20 and recorded as marks on a fixed wound track; rather than a variable number of hit points. Note that this eliminates all dice except for twenty-sided ones from the system.
• There is a fatigue system, and an option to use "Extra Effort" to gain a bonus on an action at the cost of losing a fatigue level.

Overall, I would say the rules are not significantly simpler than D&D. While they are streamlined in some ways, they are expanded in other ways (more feats, damage rules, fatigue rules). However, it is more elegant in many ways, which many will find appealing. The core D20 roll mechanic is much more emphasized -- using it for wealth, spellcasting, and damage. This is a crunchy game with a significant learning curve for those who aren't already familiar with the system.

I'm doubtful that it would be accepted as a new edition of D&D - particularly reducing all classes to Adept/Expert/Warrior and eliminating hit points.

Thanks for the rundown!  I definitely like alot from that list and was planning on incorporating similar ideas myself (roll to cast spells, wealth tiers instead of discrete currency, defaulting to the DMG NPC classes of adept/warrior/expert, etc).  All things that have been done before but I'm not sure I've ever seen so many of them together though, lol.  I agree that it's not across the board simpler and, just from a quick look at your wiki, does the PF style thing of replacing discrete powers with feats players are free to choose from or ignore.   I'm not saying that's a bad thing but it definitely shifts the complexity from one point/person to another as opposed to lessening it.

QuoteYou can browse the generic version of True20 at an SRD I made:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/srd/srd_true_generic/

Thanks again!  Just from a quick look right now, are the supernatural powers different from spells or are they the replacement/equivalent?  I didn't see a separate section for magic in your wiki at a quick glance through the table of contents (other than the small which spells changed section) so figured I'd ask first.

Quote from: RNGm on May 02, 2025, 03:20:13 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 02, 2025, 01:51:21 PMYou can browse the generic version of True20 at an SRD I made:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/srd/srd_true_generic/

Thanks again!  Just from a quick look right now, are the supernatural powers different from spells or are they the replacement/equivalent?  I didn't see a separate section for magic in your wiki at a quick glance through the table of contents (other than the small which spells changed section) so figured I'd ask first.

Supernatural powers are the replacement for spells. Similarly, the Adept/Expert/Warrior roles are the replacement for classes. There is no wizard - that's Adept plus some arcane magic feats. Likewise, a paladin would be Warrior plus some holy powers feats.

My brief opinion at this point is that True20 goes about 75% of the way turning D20 into a universal classless system like Savage Worlds. I suspect those who really prefer True20 mechanics would be happier with a fully classless system.

Sounds similar to what Kevin Crawford did with Worlds Without Number - Mage, Expert, Warrior (plus the Adventurer multi-class). I'm no scholar of old games, so it wouldn't surprise me if he took and adapted this idea - certainly not original, but we all stand on the shoulders of giants, and I really like Crawford's *WN stuff.

Quote from: jhkim on May 02, 2025, 03:37:57 PMSupernatural powers are the replacement for spells.

Thanks.  I figured as such but there was a possibility that it was a separate system of rules of superpowers/abilities instead since it's a generic ruleset with some of the fantasy filed off (at least at first glance).

Regarding the earlier post asking about PF2e class bloat, I think Google is listening.  This video popped up in my youtube recommendations today and I'm not subscribed to the channel!  Lol.  Looks like the video is only a day old so very timely for the subtopic.

Quote from: Shteve on May 02, 2025, 04:54:47 PMSounds similar to what Kevin Crawford did with Worlds Without Number - Mage, Expert, Warrior (plus the Adventurer multi-class). I'm no scholar of old games, so it wouldn't surprise me if he took and adapted this idea - certainly not original, but we all stand on the shoulders of giants, and I really like Crawford's *WN stuff.

Since True20 we have seen this in Whitehack and Warrior, Rogue and Mage (especially within the options of the latter), doing this without feats and with spells for the spellcasters, yet still maintaining three paths that one can follow to make their own character; for example, one could be a Deft fighter, building into a clever ranger.

Quote from: jhkim on May 02, 2025, 01:51:21 PMI'm doubtful that it would be accepted as a new edition of D&D - particularly reducing all classes to Adept/Expert/Warrior and eliminating hit points.

You can browse the generic version of True20 at an SRD I made:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/srd/srd_true_generic/

I want to *generally* agree the odds are that it might not have flown for True20... but given how 4e completely alienated the D&D faithful, and without that alienation, probably would have never made Pathfinder successful.

True20 is an excellent system as an honest-to-Galactus faithful attempt at reconciling 3.x d20 mechanics into something more scalable and cohesive than any official version of 3.x/PF ever could.

THAT said... Fantasy Craft cleaves *much closer* to actual 3.x mechanical design but attacks the problems by reshaping the underlying assumptions and mechanics by measuring them against one another.

I would do a deep-dive into this... but I don't want to derail the thread unless Ruprecht is cool with it. Otherwise this would have to be its own thread.

Quote from: tenbones on May 02, 2025, 07:11:40 PMI would do a deep-dive into this... but I don't want to derail the thread unless Ruprecht is cool with it. Otherwise this would have to be its own thread.

I'd be interested in reading something like that FWIW whether here or its own thread.

Well I pulled this from another thread where I was talking about Fantasy Craft. This is a quick set of claims from me, and I'll dig into the details on each one this weekend.

In order to understand the glory of Fantasy Craft you really do have to *want* to run 3.x, but accept the fact that *everything* you assume about 3.x goes flying out of the window. It's internally rebalanced and requires a really careful eye on those changes in order for the emergent aspects of the system to land on you like a ton of bricks.

Tiny changes produce drastically different results. Here are some basic differences from 3.x/PF

All stats matter for all classes (especially casters) - so NO DUMPSTATS.

20-lvl spread is there - but no dead levels. Capstone abilities are at 14th lvl.

Feats are *POWERFUL* and character defining. No Feat trees larger than 3 - and every Feat builds massively on the previous, AND, there are synergies with your Feats and other Feats and gear. For example Spear Mastery can be used with Staffs and other polearms too.

Health/Wounds over HP system. You can bypass HP altogether which greatly levels the playing field for non-casters.

Defense Ratings based on Class - vs AC. Armor *absorbs* damage. This greatly closes the gap between casters/non-casters.

Casters can cast all day long. Casting is a spellcheck. It also means casters can *fail*.

Non-casters can end fights just as fast as a caster. ONE shotting is definitely on the menu.

All forms of combat are viable. Nothing is off the table. Passes the Spartan Test (you can portray a 300 Spartan and it's not weak) with flying colors. Anything you can conceive of in fantasy (high or low) and you can make and play that in Fantasy Craft.

All subsystems are modular and tweakable. All Monsters are scalable. You can scale monsters ON THE FLY - you can make a pack of Goblins suddenly dangerous to 20th level characters.

Itemization-as-balance has been nuked. PC's aren't meant to become Christmas Trees festooned with items for the sake of "balance".

Scalable magic items as a conceit. The better your characters becomes - the more powerful your items become. Hence the itemization rebalance.

Social combat that is mechanical and powerful. A clever player can be *extremely* lethal and effective using social mechanics. Yes, this is very real.

Total toolkit modularity. The majority of the systems and sub-systems are modular and can be used/not used.

Different kinds of casters that are balanced in power against one another - they're *all* powerful.

Core Book is a PHB, DMG and MM all rolled into one big book.

Quote from: tenbones on May 02, 2025, 10:32:13 PMWell I pulled this from another thread where I was talking about Fantasy Craft. This is a quick set of claims from me, and I'll dig into the details on each one this weekend.

Thanks for the rundown. I was about to ask follow ups, but I'll wait on a more prolonged post.

Quote from: RNGm on May 02, 2025, 05:02:07 PMThis video popped up in my youtube recommendations today

Pathfinder -- where the first step in character creation is to watch a 45-minute introductory video.

I wonder how long the videos are for picking your abilities, race, spells, and gear.

Quote from: tenbones on May 02, 2025, 10:32:13 PMIn order to understand the glory of Fantasy Craft you really do have to *want* to run 3.x, but accept the fact that *everything* you assume about 3.x goes flying out of the window. It's internally rebalanced and requires a really careful eye on those changes in order for the emergent aspects of the system to land on you like a ton of bricks.

****snip****

Social combat that is mechanical and powerful. A clever player can be *extremely* lethal and effective using social mechanics. Yes, this is very real.

I appreciate the detailed rundown so thanks for that.  There is alot there that nominally I really like in theory but I'll have to see how they incorporated it in actual practice.   After yesterday's post, I did watch some 15 year old videos on youtube about both True20 and Fantasy Craft (including some by the same guy who sadly has been lost to fulminant TDS when looking at his most recent videos) as well as took an admittedly superficial glance at the rules. 

There was something confusing that I noticed right away in character creation in that it had alot of overlap between sections and terms that were confusing somewhat (at least at a glance).   You choose a specialty, career, and class but the specialty can include things wizard, rogue, ranger, druid, barbarian, etc which in a nominally d20/OGL game are classes... but the class you actually choose is more like a prestige or flavor subclass at best or just a confusing rename at worst that you choose at level 1 (like priest class but cleric as specialty or thief class but rogue is a specialty or mage and wizard).  Maybe it's just the rules light preference in me now in my upper middle age but that just seems unnecessarily confusing. 

That doesn't negate the good things in your list though like no dump stats, power levels spread out, more powerful feats powering abilities, and social combat being a core aspect.  I did chuckle at your comment regarding social combat being lethal thinking about an NPC dying of cringe mid combat.