Some criticisms of D20 are merited, some are off base.
 

Quote from: kryystSimple things like how HP's - from the beginning of D&D have never really made sense

HPs are a decent abstraction; probably mover half of all games use some version of it. It's an abstract accounting of how much it takes to kill something, it can mean different things for different individuals.
 
The only other simple alternative is some level of damage, such as M&M uses.
 

Quote from: kryystLeveling is just counter intuitive to the way people progress.

It's a game, not a detailed simulation. Almost all games give improvement in packets. Those that don't (such as BRP with checkmarks by skills) are tedious.
 
These aren't really criticisms of D20, just signs that it's not the simulation that you're looking for.
 
It's actually possible to do grim D20. The the first step is to keep the levels reasonable so that HP aren't hugely above normals. The second is just to put players is very tight spots - CoC D20 can be pretty grim.
 
And you really don't need to buy tons of books for D&D- players just need the PHB.  Other books are either in place of whole new rule books or are just for people who must have the new ultra cool spell or prestige class.

As I said before my favorite was RuneQuest and after that my houseruled 1e and 2e.

Quote from: kryystWhy?  I mean many games only really require 1 rule book to play the rest are supplemental.  Many games are far more streamlined that not every player needs a set of rule book to be able to play.  D&D is a huge $$$ vacuum that many other games, good games, don't require to be playable.  So yeah if you switch to a new system you won't be able to play your mutli prestige class insanity.  However you just don't need that kind of chaos to play a character you want.

I spend lots of $$$ on D&D books...because I like D&D books. If I wasn't spending the $$$ there I'd be buying GURPS setting books or something.  

If I didn't want to spend I could get by with free online resources. SRD + free 3rd party material would be more than enough to work with.  

I really don't get the d20 hate.

I can understand D&D hate - but the d20 mechanics can and have been excessively tweaked in numerous ways.

Arcana Evolved is basically tweaked D&D.  It is very D&Dish, but fortunately that's exactly what we're looking for.  We want to do heroic, level-advancing, quasi-superhero fantasy and it fits the bill perfectly.

I've seen how flexible d20 can be by running d20 CoC.  The tweaks built in (and the ones I've added) make it excessively grim and gritty.  Sure, there's always level-dependent benefits, and skilled characters can take a punch better by default.  I'm using VP/WP rules, though, where a character unable to defend themselves automatically takes WP.  It cuts through the hit point problem pretty effectively.  (In the basic CoC rules, a character needs to succeed a fort save vs. DC 15 every time they take more than 10 points of damage in a single round.)

As a mechanic, d20 is perfectly well-suited to skill-heavy games like CoC.  When it comes down to it, it's just a percentile die that moves in steps of 5.

-O

Quote from: obrynAs a mechanic, d20 is perfectly well-suited to skill-heavy games like CoC.  When it comes down to it, it's just a percentile die that moves in steps of 5.

-O

Except, as mentioned, you can't have an expert without them being moderately combat capable as well.  I've not played it but I understand this is a problem even in C&C d20.

Plus there's too many redundant skills.  

Quote from: NicephorusSome criticisms of D20 are merited, some are off base.
 
HPs are a decent abstraction; probably mover half of all games use some version of it. It's an abstract accounting of how much it takes to kill something, it can mean different things for different individuals.

The issue is not with hit points as a means to track damage.  The issue is in the scalling of hit points in D&D and what they mean in respect to things outside of combat.  For example the fighter taking a skydive off a cliff, but walking away becasue he's got enough hit points to soak it.  That sort of craziness.
 
 

QuoteIt's a game, not a detailed simulation. Almost all games give improvement in packets. Those that don't (such as BRP with checkmarks by skills) are tedious.

I really disagree here.  Most games increase your abilities over time.  By spending accumulated experience here and there to increase 1 skill, learn 1 new power etc.... Not accumulating some arbitrary benchmark of xp and then suddenly gaining 5 new skills, 2 new powers and a bunch of health.
 

QuoteThese aren't really criticisms of D20, just signs that it's not the simulation that you're looking for.

Correct D20 isn't my bag, never said it was.  I was wondering why other people like all the oddities that D20 represents.
 

QuoteIt's actually possible to do grim D20. The the first step is to keep the levels reasonable so that HP aren't hugely above normals. The second is just to put players is very tight spots

Sure it's possible by doing D20 by pretty much removing everything from D20 that makes it D20.  CoC is grim because you are facing ridiculous odds and everything is stacked against you.  
 

QuoteAnd you really don't need to buy tons of books for D&D- players just need the PHB.  Other books are either in place of whole new rule books or are just for people who must have the new ultra cool spell or prestige class.

I never actually said you need tons of books for D&D.  The DM realisticly needs PHB, DMG and MM, while most of the players probably should have at least one PHB per 2 players so that everyone isn't fighting over 1 rule book.   Where as with many other games there aren't so many imbedded rules that need repeated looking up for the fine details.  What I did say though is that many other less crunchy games you can get by with 1 book for the entire group and things run smoothly.  D20 seldom conforms to this rule.

Quote from: MaddmanExcept, as mentioned, you can't have an expert without them being moderately combat capable as well.  I've not played it but I understand this is a problem even in C&C d20.

Plus there's too many redundant skills.  

I got rid of the redundant skills by tightening the skill list a bit.

It's pretty easy to have even a high-level character be incompetent at fighting.  Defense-option CoC characters get no free weapon proficiencies and increase in BAB even slower than the 1/2 progression in D&D.  I'll stick to base rules rather than VP/WP

Let's take an 8th-level occultist, for example...  S 8  D 10  Co 12  I 16  W 15  Ch 11

I don't have the table, so I'll assume his BAB is +4.  (I think it's +3, honestly, but this is by memory.)

He has no weapon proficiencies, so when firing a handgun or rifle he has a massive +0 attack bonus.  This falls pretty fall short of even being "competent" in combat.  Sure, he's better than a 1st-level character, but he's far from a sharpshooter.

He has spent a feat on Skill Focus: Occultism.  With max skill points spent, this gives him a very impressive +17 to that knowledge skill.  Even on very difficult DC 20 checks, he has a 90% chance to answer them correctly.  Most of his other important skills will be around +14.

His AC is bound to suck.  Basically, he can expect to have 11.  If he wears a bulletproof vest, this will go up to 15 against low-caliber arms.  If he gets heavy body armor, he'll look at an 18 or so, max.

Granted, he does have a nice quantity of hit points.  On average, he'll have around 39.  Against measly stuff, sure - he can last a while.  The moment he takes 10 points or more of damage, though, he needs to make a Fortitude save at DC 15.  Even assuming this is one of his "good" saves, he has a +8.  So, there's about a 1-in-3 chance of dying from any decent attack.  (For reference, your standard rifle will do 2d10 damage.)

This isn't even going into sanity - which by level 8 has probably dropped significantly.  That's a whole other ball of wax, though.

-O

As far as CoC D20 is concerned the only need for a base attack bonus is if you have to kill another player that is blocking the way between you and safety.  If any player through any form of leveling ever has some idea that his combat stats should be put to use against the horrors you are doing something wrong

Quote from: kryystAs far as CoC D20 is concerned the only need for a base attack bonus is if you have to kill another player that is blocking the way between you and safety.  If any player through any form of leveling ever has some idea that his combat stats should be put to use against the horrors you are doing something wrong

Most of the foes you run into in CoC should be cultists - in which case your combat stats are perfectly useful.

If you run into a monster, you should expect to be hosed.  In almost all cases, combats against them in my games have been of the nature of "Get out of here while I try to hold.... AAAAAAHHH!"  

Most creatures have damage resistance, and the PCs aren't about to have any magic weapons.

-O

1e AD&D for preference.  Acceptable alternatives include any pre-2e version of D&D (OD&D, Holmes, Moldvay/Cook, BECMI, RC), Runequest 2, or Rolemaster (the 1980's version, not RMCSS).  Traveller is good for a change of pace.  Edit:  Damn, forgot the BRP-based games.  Call of Cthulhu and Stormbringer top the list there.

Quote from: obrynMost of the foes you run into in CoC should be cultists - in which case your combat stats are perfectly useful.

If you run into a monster, you should expect to be hosed.  In almost all cases, combats against them in my games have been of the nature of "Get out of here while I try to hold.... AAAAAAHHH!"  

Most creatures have damage resistance, and the PCs aren't about to have any magic weapons.

-O

This is acceptable, but still D20 give players too much hope.  Chaosism's CoC suggests each player have about 5 characters generated.  One to start out the adventure, one to for the middle, one for the End and 2 more just because .  This is the level of survival CoC should have

Quote from: kryystThis is acceptable, but still D20 give players too much hope.  Chaosism's CoC suggests each player have about 5 characters generated.  One to start out the adventure, one to for the middle, one for the End and 2 more just because .  This is the level of survival CoC should have

Now, you see, that kind of attitude pisses me off a bit.  There are several ways to run CoC, and not all of them need 500% mortality rates.  You can have a good, scary, flavorful horror game without constant character death.

I keep everything acceptably lethal, but TPKing every adventure is a quick way to spoil a campaign, in my mind.  My players know their characters are excessively mortal, as has been demonstrated repeatedly.  They have learned caution and don't take on unnecessary challenges.  Two have gotten good enough at running away they've survived for a year and a half of biweekly play.  It's fantastic to watch the look on their faces as those two PCs who have dwindled down to around 30 SAN or lower.

Give me the slow, unceasing decay of sanity over the meatgrinding gore-fest any day.

-O

Quote from: kryystThis is acceptable, but still D20 give players too much hope.  Chaosism's CoC suggests each player have about 5 characters generated.  One to start out the adventure, one to for the middle, one for the End and 2 more just because .  This is the level of survival CoC should have

Welll, since that is how many of HP's stories end (insane or dead) it make total sense to me that if you run into one of the big uglys you generally should die or go insane.

Besides D&D is on the opposite end of spectrum unless you are trying yo kill the players they will not die. Which IMO makes the game boring if you know there is little if any chance you will die.

Quote from: McrowWelll, since that is how many of HP's stories end (insane or dead) it make total sense to me that if you run into one of the big uglys you generally should die or go insane.

The key word up there is "end."

If the story is longer in scope - novella- or novel-sized - it makes little sense to have huge body counts early on.

-O

I would have to say d20 is my favorite system if only for the amount of material that is readily available for it.  It is simple enough and works well enough to be usable in lots of different genre's too.

GURPS is good too, but it is tough for me to find a group that is interested in playing it.  

Honestly haven't tried too much else except for an occasional one shot here or there.