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Author Topic: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?  (Read 5692 times)

finarvyn

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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2021, 12:41:40 PM »
I'm interested in purchasing some Wotc D&D products - like Curse of Strahd -, but I want the original products, not the reprinted ones with wokified content.
This may be obvious, but for Strahd if you find the hardback it should be okay. The edited version is from the boxed set, and I think the book included there is paperback.
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BoxCrayonTales

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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2021, 02:11:15 PM »
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Thats it. The guy being married to a guy is meaningless. If it was placed there as a deliberate woke agenda plan then it fails totally because it is meaningless.

But as I said one of elements of woke agenda is normalisation.
So the fact you can just drop gay marriage in Cthulth like that, without any explanation and background is THEIR WIN.
You seem to assume wokesters care only about BIG MEANINGFUL LGBT STUFF.
No they also care than random unimportant marriage of third-grade NPCs can be gay and it does not raise anyone's brow.

Now TBH considering how utterly hippie (but also kinda more brutal) was original Ed's Faerun I can say this is probably something well within mindset of Greenwood, for bad or worse.

The entertainment industry in general is hugely guilty of historical revisionism and presentism. There are plenty of other anachronisms to get upset over beyond the current woke fad and tokenism.

Why should background NPCs living in a same-sex marriage raise anyone's brow considering that we're dealing with a foreign environment that doesn't elucidate its basic cultural norms?

The Cthulhu example is a bad example because we know the 1920s weren't a great time to be homosexual due to the preponderance of records attesting to homosexuality being perceived as a mental illness.

With Faerun, we don't know such basic facts as how heterosexual marriage works. Is the dowry paid to the bride's family or the groom's? Is there polygamy? Can women own property independently of men? Are widows burned alive?

The writers just assume that the audience will mentally fill in the gaps, regardless of whether this actually fits into the world building.

Wicked Woodpecker of West
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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2021, 02:41:46 PM »
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The entertainment industry in general is hugely guilty of historical revisionism and presentism. There are plenty of other anachronisms to get upset over beyond the current woke fad and tokenism.

TBH I'm not really upset about anachronism of D&D setting because most of them, never made any sense whatsoever.

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The writers just assume that the audience will mentally fill in the gaps, regardless of whether this actually fits into the world building.

Yes, mostly. And in many cases there is no proper worldbuilding.
I mean most are just sinkholes.

Other who could be cool like Eberron suffers because they needed to find place for all Core Elements of D&D existing in this setting.

HappyDaze

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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2021, 05:38:58 PM »
 
WOTC are not particularly subtle in their pro woke bias, but even they must realise the outcry a full on queer pre-gen character or key NPC would cause amongst the vast majority of their customer base, even though I am sure that is exactly what is intended for the future.
I don't think "the vast majority of their customer base" see the issue the same way you do.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2021, 08:16:07 AM »
I’m pretty apathetic myself. Simple tokenism isn’t sufficient to get my attention, because that long predates wokeness. The company would have to write pretty obnoxious political screed to get my attention. I’m talking stuff like advocating re-education camps, death camps, censorship, corrective rape, genital mutilation, and all the other horrifying fantasies I’ve seen come out of the woke cesspit.

Or at the very least come out and say “anyone who isn’t woke is evil”, “whiteness is the original sin,” or  “don’t buy our product you fascist!”  like certain other companies have.


Eirikrautha

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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2021, 09:29:13 AM »
 
WOTC are not particularly subtle in their pro woke bias, but even they must realise the outcry a full on queer pre-gen character or key NPC would cause amongst the vast majority of their customer base, even though I am sure that is exactly what is intended for the future.
I don't think "the vast majority of their customer base" see the issue the same way you do.
Nor the way you do, either.

The fact is that no one knows what the " vast majority of their customer base" thinks about any issue, because there's no way to know.  Posts on the internet are 1% of the customer base (if that) and the most vocal and driven part.  Even industry surveys have a less than 10% response rate (something many companies lament all the time, and it's from the same group that has already screamed at them on Twitter).  So the only real way to know what your customers think is to see if they keep buying.  And not the "issue" or "book" with the change in it.  The one after the change, where your brand loyalty already has been destroyed.  Just ask the producers of Solo how that works...

Eirikrautha

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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2021, 09:31:16 AM »
I’m pretty apathetic myself. Simple tokenism isn’t sufficient to get my attention, because that long predates wokeness. The company would have to write pretty obnoxious political screed to get my attention. I’m talking stuff like advocating re-education camps, death camps, censorship, corrective rape, genital mutilation, and all the other horrifying fantasies I’ve seen come out of the woke cesspit.

Or at the very least come out and say “anyone who isn’t woke is evil”, “whiteness is the original sin,” or  “don’t buy our product you fascist!”  like certain other companies have.

That's a reasonable stance, and similar to mine.  It is a ratio of "ease of use" to "need to change."  When I start having to change a bunch of crap in their published materials and it loses its ease of use, then I'll move to something with a better ratio...

HappyDaze

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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2021, 05:43:01 PM »
 
WOTC are not particularly subtle in their pro woke bias, but even they must realise the outcry a full on queer pre-gen character or key NPC would cause amongst the vast majority of their customer base, even though I am sure that is exactly what is intended for the future.
I don't think "the vast majority of their customer base" see the issue the same way you do.
Nor the way you do, either.

The fact is that no one knows what the " vast majority of their customer base" thinks about any issue, because there's no way to know.  Posts on the internet are 1% of the customer base (if that) and the most vocal and driven part.  Even industry surveys have a less than 10% response rate (something many companies lament all the time, and it's from the same group that has already screamed at them on Twitter).  So the only real way to know what your customers think is to see if they keep buying.  And not the "issue" or "book" with the change in it.  The one after the change, where your brand loyalty already has been destroyed.  Just ask the producers of Solo how that works...
I never claimed they see it the way I do. I never even mentioned how I see it.

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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2021, 07:14:35 PM »
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WOTC are not particularly subtle in their pro woke bias, but even they must realise the outcry a full on queer pre-gen character or key NPC would cause amongst the vast majority of their customer base, even though I am sure that is exactly what is intended for the future.

The answer is - just like with Pathfinder - openly queer pre-gens and iconics will mean nothing for fanbase, aside of few very puritanical conservatists.
Most others are either lefties - or as me for instance - if I like the system I cannot care less - I'd gladly adjust their woke agendas to my Catholic Fascist sensibilities.
One day I'm gonna buy iHunt and do full on redneck version of it, where Reptilians will be truly Jewish :P and then I'm gonna stream it all over internet ;)

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The fact is that no one knows what the " vast majority of their customer base" thinks about any issue, because there's no way to know.  Posts on the internet are 1% of the customer base (if that) and the most vocal and driven part.  Even industry surveys have a less than 10% response rate (something many companies lament all the time, and it's from the same group that has already screamed at them on Twitter).  So the only real way to know what your customers think is to see if they keep buying.  And not the "issue" or "book" with the change in it.  The one after the change, where your brand loyalty already has been destroyed.  Just ask the producers of Solo how that works...

D&D have nice experimenting ground - in form of PAIZO, and they can check if being woke really hurts your sales so much.
Answer is: if your content is woke and good game - then it won't hurt you - new Star Wars were additionally ill-planned incoherent mess - that's why they failed, not because of Laura Dern's pink wig.


Eirikrautha

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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2021, 09:25:28 PM »
 
WOTC are not particularly subtle in their pro woke bias, but even they must realise the outcry a full on queer pre-gen character or key NPC would cause amongst the vast majority of their customer base, even though I am sure that is exactly what is intended for the future.
I don't think "the vast majority of their customer base" see the issue the same way you do.
Nor the way you do, either.

The fact is that no one knows what the " vast majority of their customer base" thinks about any issue, because there's no way to know.  Posts on the internet are 1% of the customer base (if that) and the most vocal and driven part.  Even industry surveys have a less than 10% response rate (something many companies lament all the time, and it's from the same group that has already screamed at them on Twitter).  So the only real way to know what your customers think is to see if they keep buying.  And not the "issue" or "book" with the change in it.  The one after the change, where your brand loyalty already has been destroyed.  Just ask the producers of Solo how that works...
I never claimed they see it the way I do. I never even mentioned how I see it.
My point was that, no matter how you see it or don't, you'd have no way to to know how the majority of the customer base sees things.  To the point where you can't say they don't see it his way, anymore than he can say they do...

Eirikrautha

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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2021, 09:26:35 PM »
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WOTC are not particularly subtle in their pro woke bias, but even they must realise the outcry a full on queer pre-gen character or key NPC would cause amongst the vast majority of their customer base, even though I am sure that is exactly what is intended for the future.

The answer is - just like with Pathfinder - openly queer pre-gens and iconics will mean nothing for fanbase, aside of few very puritanical conservatists.
Most others are either lefties - or as me for instance - if I like the system I cannot care less - I'd gladly adjust their woke agendas to my Catholic Fascist sensibilities.
One day I'm gonna buy iHunt and do full on redneck version of it, where Reptilians will be truly Jewish :P and then I'm gonna stream it all over internet ;)

Quote
The fact is that no one knows what the " vast majority of their customer base" thinks about any issue, because there's no way to know.  Posts on the internet are 1% of the customer base (if that) and the most vocal and driven part.  Even industry surveys have a less than 10% response rate (something many companies lament all the time, and it's from the same group that has already screamed at them on Twitter).  So the only real way to know what your customers think is to see if they keep buying.  And not the "issue" or "book" with the change in it.  The one after the change, where your brand loyalty already has been destroyed.  Just ask the producers of Solo how that works...

D&D have nice experimenting ground - in form of PAIZO, and they can check if being woke really hurts your sales so much.
Answer is: if your content is woke and good game - then it won't hurt you - new Star Wars were additionally ill-planned incoherent mess - that's why they failed, not because of Laura Dern's pink wig.

Yeah, because PF2 is just killing it right now...

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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2021, 08:28:11 AM »
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Yeah, because PF2 is just killing it right now...

Well but that's not matter of wokism - but like with 4edition - fact that many people were disheartened with change of beloved system, while writers WANTED DO SOMETHING NEW.
Which is understandable dillema. (Plus of course 5e as simpler game took some chunk of original PF).
But I'd argue PF2 is not more woke than PF1, so overall that's not the point.

Especially since PF was basically home for 3,5 orphans - so ditching 3,5-ness of this - clearly ticked some people off.

Eirikrautha

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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2021, 09:26:31 PM »
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Yeah, because PF2 is just killing it right now...

Well but that's not matter of wokism - but like with 4edition - fact that many people were disheartened with change of beloved system, while writers WANTED DO SOMETHING NEW.
Which is understandable dillema. (Plus of course 5e as simpler game took some chunk of original PF).
But I'd argue PF2 is not more woke than PF1, so overall that's not the point.

Especially since PF was basically home for 3,5 orphans - so ditching 3,5-ness of this - clearly ticked some people off.
Sorry, but you can't arbitrarily decide that woke doesn't hurt PF1 because of its sales figures, and then suddenly ignore PF2's sales figures and its woke content.  Note, I'm not arguing that woke is the only, or even primary, reason PF2 is floundering.  But I will argue that you can't reduce a complex situation (PF1's success) to a simple "people don't care about woke," only to reject that simplistic interpretation when it doesn't fit the next set of data.

PF1 may not have suffered at the beginning from its woke, simply because it was the only major alternative to 4e.  But as the woke grew, the loyalty to PF1 may have decreased until the wokeness played a role in PF2 not being as successful.  This is not an either-or proposition.  The level of woke is a scale, and Baizuo has been consistently sliding the scale upwards.  People who were "pot-committed" (to use a poker term) may have grimaced but continued on with PF1, but drawn the line with PF2 because they had no investment in it.

Once again, I don't think wokism is the primary reason for PF2 struggling.  But your argument is foundationally flawed, and doesn't support either of your contentions...

Eirikrautha

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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2021, 09:34:17 PM »
...new Star Wars were additionally ill-planned incoherent mess - that's why they failed, not because of Laura Dern's pink wig.
I can't tell if you are just missing the obvious or willfully obtuse.  The reason that the sequels were an "ill-planned incoherent mess" was the same reason for the pink wig.  They were planned as a repudiation of everything Star Wars originally stood for.  You can't have the writers tweeting out "the Force is female!" and assert that woke wasn't the foundation of the whole plot line...

Wicked Woodpecker of West
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Re: What are the pre-woke prints od D&D 5th edition ?
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2021, 09:40:30 PM »
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Sorry, but you can't arbitrarily decide that woke doesn't hurt PF1 because of its sales figures, and then suddenly ignore PF2's sales figures and its woke content.  Note, I'm not arguing that woke is the only, or even primary, reason PF2 is floundering.  But I will argue that you can't reduce a complex situation (PF1's success) to a simple "people don't care about woke," only to reject that simplistic interpretation when it doesn't fit the next set of data.

If amount of woke content would change significantly up from PF1 to PF2 then yes.
But as according to my observation it's generally high from the get go and reached really woke level years ago - then yes I shall not include it in set of data explaining why PF2 sells way way worse than PF1.

Also I have not claimed it's a reason of PF1 success. Reason of PF1 success was foremostly - orphan population of 3,5 players that hated 4e - they wanted more of the same game - ergo 3,5 - that's most crucial element. And it was enough.


So if PF1 and PF2 are simmilarily woke, then difference between their results lie beyond question "woke or not woke".


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PF1 may not have suffered at the beginning from its woke, simply because it was the only major alternative to 4e.  But as the woke grew, the loyalty to PF1 may have decreased until the wokeness played a role in PF2 not being as successful.  This is not an either-or proposition.  The level of woke is a scale, and Baizuo has been consistently sliding the scale upwards.  People who were "pot-committed" (to use a poker term) may have grimaced but continued on with PF1, but drawn the line with PF2 because they had no investment in it.

It is possible - but then again that points to new mechanics as a reason of failure. Even anti-woke players bought PF1 because they wanted 3,5 style game, so obviously not reason to follow when they changed into utterly new itteration of D&D-oid.

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I can't tell if you are just missing the obvious or willfully obtuse.  The reason that the sequels were an "ill-planned incoherent mess" was the same reason for the pink wig.  They were planned as a repudiation of everything Star Wars originally stood for.  You can't have the writers tweeting out "the Force is female!" and assert that woke wasn't the foundation of the whole plot line...

While I consider wokism to seriously increase chances for bad plot - those are not essentialy connected.
There is no WOKE reason for not planning trilogy from the get go, for allowing screenwriters of 3 parts to write them ultimately separatedly which leads to utter disjunction of all story.
That is just shoddy planning, and shoddy storytelling.

Would be just as bad - if they put Akbar in place of Holdo.