This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: What are the big problems in 5E?  (Read 48252 times)

Shrieking Banshee

  • Narcissist Undead
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2507
What are the big problems in 5E?
« Reply #540 on: November 26, 2019, 10:04:48 PM »
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1115095
I think there were a lot of people that expected simplification of 3.x with 4th edition, but that's not what was provided at all.  3.x can be simplified.  Unfortunately, the thing that made money in 3.x was supplement bloat.  Producing thousands of feats or spells is easy to do and all of those options interact with the game in unexpected ways.  Feats were new in 3.x, and they were too conservative with them, both in quantity characters received and in what they did - there's no reason to take Two-Weapon Fighting Feats 5 times - that could just be one feat.  The action economy also evolved over time; allowing people to move while taking a standard (or full attack) would help with a lot of martial/caster disparity issues.  More thematic spell lists would help even more.  

But if you have a spell list that is 'complete', there isn't much reason for you to spend money on a new supplement that includes 40 new spells that you can't access.

Say...Have you checked out Spheres of Power and Might...For Pathfinder (3rd edition works too).
Its a "Feat" based system of advancement for Magic and Might.

What makes it great is that you get a ton more talents then feat, talents are generally more powerful then feats, and talents are designed so you can take them in any order (Mostly).
It also allows you (And kinda forces you) to make thematic casters, and allows for customization of your casting tradition.
It also Makes Martials more engaging and flexible, and allows them to potentially dip into "Myths of Legend" mechanics type deals without requiring you to be level 10+. And the martial combat system is designed to bypass full attacks.

To be clear I may or may not be an author on one of the books, but I'm keeping my identity hidden just in case.

rawma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1798
What are the big problems in 5E?
« Reply #541 on: November 27, 2019, 12:00:10 AM »
Quote from: rawma;1114984
high level parties may meet large numbers of lower CR opponents and enjoy hitting easily what was previously challenging.


Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114996
Not very likely. Because as AC is actually quite hard to increase, large amounts of mooks with any kind of coordination are almost always better then singular elites. The game heavily discourages taking on any amount of large groups of enemies.


I didn't say they wouldn't die, only that they can enjoy hitting easily. :D Survival may hinge on avoiding too many attacks at a time and what the casters bring, depending on what "large numbers" means. Against a single 20th level character, 16 dire wolves is ranked a deadly encounter, but with a wall behind, only two can attack per round. Some martial 20th level characters could beat that encounter with fair certainty.

Quote from: S'mon;1115016
Edit: I don't see any of this as a problem with 5e; IME it works well and gives some reasonable choices to players. The potential mook threat makes 5e more resemble most heroic fiction, compared to editions like 3e where weak enemies are no threat at all.


This seems right to me. The modest increase in proficiency seemed odd when I first encountered it, but it works better than previous editions.

Quote from: Omega;1115047
While so far it has not come up in actual play. One of  my early concerns was just how high can AC be jacked vs how high To hit can. And using various buffs and class combo tricks its possible to crank AC up really high.

Some quick ones.
A Cleric, Fighter or Paladin decked out in +3 magic armour & shield, and a +1 ring & cloak can hit AC 29. 30 for a Fighter or Paladin taking the defensive style. 32 if a cleric, or paladin (or a fighter with Magic Initiate) and Shield of Faith casts it on them or self. A maxed out level 20 Barbarian can potentially hit an AC of 27 unarmoured with a +3 shield. Then 29 with the ring and cloak, and 31 with Shield of Faith.

The generally low magic item acquisition rate and unlikelyness of getting everything to come together makes this relatively unlikely to happen unless PCs or foes are really prepping intensely.

Meanwhile to hit maxes at something like 6 prof + 5 stat + up to a +3 weapon = +14 on a roll.


If you're going to assume +3 armor (legendary), why don't you assume a belt of giant strength for the strength based attacks, or the appropriate manual or tome for attacks based on other abilities? My ranger might manage +17 with a +3 weapon and a manual of quickness of action. I've seen +2 armor and +2 shields, and a number of +3 weapons and on several occasions a belt of storm giant strength, but no +3 armor or shield (except the allied NPC in Storm King's Thunder). Also, a devotion paladin could wield a +6 weapon by channeling divinity, if they can get a 22 charisma.

On the other hand, you neglected to equip your super-AC characters with a ring of spell storing with 5 shield spells.

On the whole, worrying about the extreme top levels is probably pretty silly; I think 5e is less broken there than other editions, but my experience is that tier IV (levels 17-20) is less interesting and fun than the other tiers.

Omega

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • O
  • Posts: 17093
What are the big problems in 5E?
« Reply #542 on: November 27, 2019, 06:43:36 AM »
Quote from: tenbones;1115053
I'm more curious to know whether anyone changed their views at all? Who here budged on their feelings/opinions and in regards to what? I'm genuinely curious.


Overall. Not really. Its an overall good system with some glaring flaws. Some of which, like carrying over for the now 4th time the incorrect and incomplete falling damage rules, seem to have been put in just so someone could write a line somewhere mocking it. Others just seem to be cases of a designer being too caught up in making EVERYTHING AWESOME ALL THE TIME!!! that they lost sight of actual gameplay or common sense. Yet at the same time is relatively balanced as long as you reign things in a little and arent to free with the magic items, etc and work to curb players trying to game the system. Which due to some of the dodgy writing, is vexingly easy in 5e.

Conversely my attitude towards 4e has gone from annoyance to a more neutral stance as I learn more about it little by little.

And my opinion of 3e has gone from "huh? interesting" to a gradually increasing dislike of its system. Though alot of local players love it for its complexity and ability to make totally overpowered characters if you put some effort into it. They also love Gurps for the same reason.

Omega

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • O
  • Posts: 17093
What are the big problems in 5E?
« Reply #543 on: November 27, 2019, 06:56:10 AM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1115064
It would be the equivalent of me budging on liking the taste of Melons because other people like them. I still think that 5e, as it stands, could have been better even for the people that like 5e (which I don't). I still stand by 5e being a lucky flash in the pan propelled by just the right timing of internet fame than any innate quality.  D&D 6e won't be as lucky.


Part of the problem may be sabotage from 4e fanatics. Not fans. Fanatics. The number of things that were working fine in the playtest that ended up removed or replaced suggests something went wrong between playtest and publication.

As for 5es success. Its in large part due to the playtest that got alot of people involved from the start. They seemed to be listening to feedback. And most importantly. Fallout from 4e which is also what allowed Paizo to take 3e forward and kick WOTCs ass for years to the point Hasbro had WOTC on a tight budget leash near the last quarter of 4e. It was not luck. It was a series of failures that set things up. Had WOTC gone a different route 5e would have likely crashed and that would have been the end of D&D as an officially published RPG or even as a brand possibly.

Problem is WOTC loves to steal defeat from the jaws of victory. The odds of them coming out with a 6th ed increases with each passing year and that will likely be the end. People are increasingly fed up with edition treadmills. Its amazing 5e has lasted nearly 8 years now considering WOTCs obsession with the damn "5 year plan" which can burn in hell along with all its advocates.

Omega

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • O
  • Posts: 17093
What are the big problems in 5E?
« Reply #544 on: November 27, 2019, 07:20:35 AM »
Quote from: rawma;1115106
If you're going to assume +3 armor (legendary), why don't you assume a belt of giant strength for the strength based attacks, or the appropriate manual or tome for attacks based on other abilities?

As said was just some quick estimates and also keeping it more or less within some vague sort of reason. And also within the limitations of attunement. Adding Shield of Faith is the iffy part because it is limited by how much it can be cast. Hence why its at the tail end of the progression and why I think it is overall unlikely to happen normally. But it is an example of how far you can reasonably crank AC with  top end gear and one spell. 5es overall lower magic item rate will usually make it even less likely. (barring overly generous DMs)

Id be very surprised if someone has not thought up ways to take it higher. But that was not the point of my post. Merely to illustrate how high it can go with simple basics.

VisionStorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2184
What are the big problems in 5E?
« Reply #545 on: November 27, 2019, 09:26:59 AM »
Quote from: tenbones;1115075
I don't want to make this a tangent...

but wouldn't Mutants & Masterminds 3e be that simplification to D&D3e? It's pretty simple. It's 3e... mutated into another thing. But it's all right there. Pretty easy (and quite powerful in its flexibility).

I think the REAL issue is the emergent herd of Sacred Cows(tm) that are hallmarks of D&D itself that are the issue.


Mutants & Masterminds is pretty close to my preference as a core/universal system for RPGs in general. There are still some issues in that it allows total roll modifiers to potentially reach absurdly high levels--which is a hallmark of 3e that I actually agree with 5e for reigning in--and there are some things I would do differently. But overall it's along the lines of what I've been trying to do and very similar to my own system, except I use a different attribute/skill layout that's even more consolidated, but supplemented by a secondary class of abilities called Techniques that expands on what skills can do and handles more specific aspects of skills (like specific stuff you've actually trained to do, specializations, training related benefits, etc.).

I also use my own damage system that I call a "point-based condition monitor"* and includes a few others of my own idiosyncrasies, but overall it's just a Skill & Effect-based d20+Mod system, just like M&M.

*Characters take HP-like damage reduced by their damage resistance; once they reach a certain threshold (like 50 or so--maybe variable by setting/campaign style lethality) they are in "critical condition" and must make continued Survival checks to avoid dying from further damage--system works for keeping track of non-physical damage types as well, like Mental/Sanity, Social/Reputation, etc.

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6164
What are the big problems in 5E?
« Reply #546 on: November 28, 2019, 01:20:34 AM »
Quote from: Crusader X;1115088
What are the other systems that you prefer?  Just curious.

D&D 5e is ok, but I want to branch out and try other fantasy RPGs.


Well I've played a lot of systems. And I'm always looking at new systems etc.

These days I favor lighter systems that gravitate towards scalability in power. Savage Worlds covers most of my bases in that regard. Fast, easy to use, flexible as hell. There are others in its weight-class that are probably "as flexible" - but it seems to rub me the right way.

There are other systems I have *deep* love for... and for the record: no system is perfect. You'll notice the obvious pattern being they're all skill-based systems and they're all light-to-medium crunch.

In no particular order:

Open D6/West End D6 - A really solid system.
Talislanta/Atlantis - Not only do I love the setting(s), I'm in love with the system. All 6 editions are compatible - the core task-resolution has not changed.
Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP) - Fantastically scalable, probably one of the most flexible systems around. An amazing piece of design that was *way* ahead of its time.
Interlock - Fast, gritty, dangerous. Brilliant design - but it is a *very* specific kind of feel, I don't use this for "over the top". It's best of gritty-cinematic John Wick type action...

Honorable mentions (i.e. things I'd run if my group asked me)

NWoD - Not a fan of the cosmology, but I do like the core mechanics of the system.
DC Heroes - If I could convince my group to let me use it... but they're die-hard MSH fans for supers.
Mutants and Masterminds - See DC Heroes
Fantasycraft - If I were going to run an out of the box d20 fantasy game... this is what I'd use. I'd have to meditate for about a week before doing a re-read tho... (and this is the only Class-based game on this list)

rawma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1798
What are the big problems in 5E?
« Reply #547 on: November 28, 2019, 02:32:27 PM »
Quote from: Omega;1115124
Merely to illustrate how high it can go with simple basics.


My point was that you downplay the extremes of bonuses to hit; it doesn't max out at +14.

It is true that there are fewer adds to hit probability than to AC, though; armor, shield, ring, cloak, Ioun stone can all add bonuses to AC, but only one item can add bonuses, and any other bonuses by increasing ability score. Dexterity based attacks can get a 22 dexterity, +3 weapon and +2 archery fighting style; strength based can get giant strength; but there's not as much for spell attack rolls. It's a curious asymmetry in the standard items and class features. Also interesting that strength, often a dump stat since dexterity can cover for a lot of characters, is the only one that can reach such high values.