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Author Topic: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)  (Read 7225 times)

Jaeger

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2020, 06:29:58 PM »

....

Again, no. If that were true, D&D4E should've been a massive success. You don't like 5E, that's fine. But what it does very well is being an accessible RPG. And being recognisably D&D.

Actually, compared to every other non-D&D RPG out at the time; 4e was a massive success.

It just wasn't a massive success worthy of the 800lb gorilla of the hobby.

It just didn't hit 3e numbers, and the design was different enough that they hemorrhaged enough 3e players to be eventually outsold by a clone..

The 3e clone did well enough to be able to keep the 5e D&D designers honest. (no more of that MMO crap in our D&D dude!)

5e is "everyone's favorite edition" precisely because it is the bland ass 'macdonalds' of D&D rpg editions.

Who cares if there are not as much character options as 3e?

Who cares if there are rpg's out there with better combat and action mechanics?

No one. No one cares.

Because it says D&D on the cover.

Because it is mechanically recognizable as D&D, and doesn't use the weird 4e MMO nomenclature.

It may not tick anyone's best eveah! boxes, but it doesn't tick the hate ones either.

It says D&D on the cover and it is mechanically Good Enough.

Never underestimate the power of "Good Enough" when you are the 800lb gorilla market leader,
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 06:59:55 PM by Jaeger »
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SHARK

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2020, 08:38:15 PM »

Greetings!


Ahh. Well, is D&D 5E the best game edition ever? I don't know. 5E seems to be a stripped down version of 3E, and flexible and accessible. I can tweak and change things around, and make the system and the campaign run the way I prefer. I did the same thing with 3E, and D&D back in the day, with AD&D. So, there's nothing really new about that, to be honest. I'm also aware that not everyone is a hardcore grognard like myself. Lots of ordinary gamers just want to roll up a fantasy character and play. Wives, girlfriends, and assorted relatives are not likely to care one whit for all of the uber detail that we often discuss here. I've attempted to engage some with exploring more lore, different, older systems or mechanics, and the why of option A instead of option B--and they often giggle and look at me like a deer-in-headlights. Their eyes glaze over, I'm afraid. *laughing* Meanwhile, at two different local game stores--both have one or more nights per week scheduled for D&D games--everyone involved plays D&D 5E. When these people discuss bringing their kids or teenagers into the game, or their friends or wives or whatever--D&D 5E is always the game these other people are interested in learning and playing. No one is much interested in playing AD&D, let alone OD&D or something even more obscure. Forget Pathfinder, too. That seems to be the overwhelming dynamic in play.


I do like D&D 5E's simplicity, adaptability, and flexibility. There are many things that you can subtract and add to the game system, without breaking it and causing too many problems or difficulties. I add many OSR aspects to my own campaigns, and the game works just fine. Also like Nerzenjager's commentary about D&D 5E being the "Lingua Franca" of gaming is very true. The game has become mainstream, and many new people, perhaps especially women, find the game attractive and appealing. That doesn't just mean there is more women playing the game than ever before, it also means that *men* that are in the hobby do not face obstacles and hassles--but instead are met with encouragement and enthusiasm. That kind of heightened popularity and accessibility makes gaming easier and more fun for everyone.


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SHARK
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Shrieking Banshee

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2020, 08:45:26 PM »
That kind of heightened popularity and accessibility makes gaming easier and more fun for everyone.
I don't really blame 5e for this, since I think it just got lucky with timing, but I don't necessarily value mass appeal.


The fact that a niche thing can get more popular by distilling (and supplanting) the original isn't really mind blowing. But Id rather have something be niche then supplanted. I have that feel with Star Trek for instance.

Bren

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2020, 09:18:23 PM »
I'm not at all surprised that a casual player says they want to play D&D 5E. That statement doesn't necessarily mean that they actually want to play 5E instead of something else. It may just be the only name they know. D&D 5E is the Kleenex tissue of RPGs.
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Bren

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2020, 09:27:09 PM »
Lots of ordinary gamers just want to roll up a fantasy character and play.
I suspect that nowadays the popularity of World of Warcraft has made D&D's level-based style of play and smorgasbord of races and character classes familiar to some people who never played a tabletop RPG and HBO's Game of Thrones has made fantasy familiar to an even wider audience. So D&D has all that going for it too.
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Razor 007

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #80 on: September 29, 2020, 12:57:28 AM »
After continued reflection....


PHB + 1
(Player's Handbook + Xanathar's Guide)


That's plenty of material to offer at your table.  I don't want to hear any whining about that not being enough options.  Take these two books, and create your character.  No, I don't care what they were talking about on Unearthed Arcana this week.  You have 2 books to build from.  It's enough.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 09:54:10 AM by Razor 007 »
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Naburimannu

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #81 on: September 29, 2020, 04:16:21 AM »
Just because so many people I assert I don't exist: 5e is my favourite edition of TSR/WotC D&D.

I didn't have a strong preference between Mentzer & Holmes back in the day; the next-door neighbour got the one book, then I got the other. 1e's OK but its assumptions about how the world works are just as strong as the modern games, in core 2e I didn't see anything that wasn't there in 1e aside from organisation, 3e starts off nice but has too much complication and rules mastery and progression-planning required, 4e was promising to read but at my table with my players *always* devolved into a skirmish game; 5e seems to work for us.

Labyrinth Lord was a great ruleset for introducing a bunch of (pre-)teens and their parents to the hobby.
Rather than go back to B/X today, I'd play ACKS. ASSH has a nice setting but I don't care for the baroque layer over 1e. I'm sure I'd enjoy a game using most of the Sine Nomine rulesets. LotFP seems like a reasonable stripped-down ruleset but the support is awful.

And there are eleven or twelve non-D&D titles on the bookshelf which we don't need to go through now, or the OSR variants I've read & ended up discarding without playing.
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Nerzenjäger

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #82 on: September 29, 2020, 04:52:53 AM »
Yes, it's just a bunch of guys who can't fathom that their favourite RPG is being ignored, while 5E is not only hugely popular, but also many, many, many people's favourite RPG.


And it's also funny how there is constant talk about it being badly designed or being bland. I'm more of an OD&D guy, but let's not kid ourselves, many of these people haven't run a by-the-book old school game in a long time, maybe ever. To take my own example: 0E is great and rightfully beloved, but it comes with MANY of it's own flaws, if played the way it is described in the LBBs.
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Shrieking Banshee

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #83 on: September 29, 2020, 08:47:12 AM »

Just because so many people I assert I don't exist: 5e is my favourite edition of TSR/WotC D&D.



Didn't say you didn't exist. Just that there where not that many people that would call 5e their favorite edition.


Yes, it's just a bunch of guys who can't fathom that their favourite RPG is being ignored, while 5E is not only hugely popular, but also many, many, many people's favourite RPG.



I suppose fathoming it makes it more sad then provocative. I can believe that Star Trek: Into Darkness is many peoples most favorite element of Star Trek. And it was hugely successful (moreso then the rest of Star Trek). Didn't make it good.


And to your example: Yeah all editions of D&D have flaws Im not delusional. I find 5es main fault not its flaws but lack of good. I find it the least ambitious edition of D&D. So while I dislike PLAYING 4e more, I respect it more.

Razor 007

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #84 on: September 29, 2020, 10:09:18 AM »

Just because so many people I assert I don't exist: 5e is my favourite edition of TSR/WotC D&D.



Didn't say you didn't exist. Just that there where not that many people that would call 5e their favorite edition.


Yes, it's just a bunch of guys who can't fathom that their favourite RPG is being ignored, while 5E is not only hugely popular, but also many, many, many people's favourite RPG.



I suppose fathoming it makes it more sad then provocative. I can believe that Star Trek: Into Darkness is many peoples most favorite element of Star Trek. And it was hugely successful (moreso then the rest of Star Trek). Didn't make it good.


And to your example: Yeah all editions of D&D have flaws Im not delusional. I find 5es main fault not its flaws but lack of good. I find it the least ambitious edition of D&D. So while I dislike PLAYING 4e more, I respect it more.





It's possible that even if 5E isn't someone's favorite edition or rule set, that the 5E gaming culture and opportunities are their favorite.  It's a pretty active and welcoming gaming community.  There isn't the same chance of early character death, as seen in AD&D; and there isn't the same dire need to acquire system mastery and focus upon optimization, as with 3.5 Edition.  5th Edition is the shallow end of the pool, with hand rails.  Some people are drawn to that.
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Shrieking Banshee

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #85 on: September 29, 2020, 10:18:46 AM »
It's possible that even if 5E isn't someone's favorite edition or rule set, that the 5E gaming culture and opportunities are their favorite.  It's a pretty active and welcoming gaming community.  There isn't the same chance of early character death, as seen in AD&D; and there isn't the same dire need to acquire system mastery and focus upon optimization, as with 3.5 Edition.  5th Edition is the shallow end of the pool, with hand rails.  Some people are drawn to that.


Maybe. I find welcomingness overrated. Again my issue with 5e isn't its excess of bad, but lack of good. It feels to me like a modern art piece where everybody sees what they want in it, when its just a pair of glasses somebody left on the floor.

Abraxus

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #86 on: September 29, 2020, 10:28:12 AM »
I don't understand the kind of attitude of a rpg community being welcome as being a bad thing. Would you rather the rpg community treated you like an asshole and a pariah.


As usually some gamers don't fail to disappoint in being social retarded misanthropes. I rather join a community that welcomes me than one that gatekeeps. That's just me though. I can tell you that the player picked to join the table is not the one who questions why the group is so welcoming.


5E has many flaws being a welcoming edition of an rpg is not one of them imo.




Steven Mitchell

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #87 on: September 29, 2020, 10:34:54 AM »
5E isn't as bad as the critics make it out to be and isn't as good as its fans think it is.  Surprise, surprise.

It has more going for it than legacy and a name.  Any criticism taking the assumption that is all it has is blinkered.  You may not prefer what it is doing, but it is doing some things well. It is a very casual-friendly game, in that it is not punishing to people only partially paying attention, but escalates quickly for those that fall shy of that.  That is, it isn't a game that will usually push the players hard, but there is still some solid player agency there.  (In the hands of a moderately competent or better GM, the push can be increased.)

It doesn't help that the execution is where most of the lack exists--both in what is done poorly, what is done OK but not well, and what is simply not done at all.

Despite all the WotC editions comparisons to Magic and World of Warcraft, 5E is not a good comparison to either, not even on a business/design/strategy/marketing tier where such comparison could have some merit.  Blizzard is known (or at least was) for taking fairly pedestrian ideas and then polishing them until they are nigh flawless.  5E is the opposite--WotC took some very solid design and then ruthlessly and aggressively settled for mediocrity in the delivery.  This does make it easier to house rule than 3E/4E.  Whether that is worth doing depends on how much you want your game to be casual-friendly.

VisionStorm

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #88 on: September 29, 2020, 01:15:39 PM »
I don't understand the kind of attitude of a rpg community being welcome as being a bad thing. Would you rather the rpg community treated you like an asshole and a pariah.


As usually some gamers don't fail to disappoint in being social retarded misanthropes. I rather join a community that welcomes me than one that gatekeeps. That's just me though. I can tell you that the player picked to join the table is not the one who questions why the group is so welcoming.


5E has many flaws being a welcoming edition of an rpg is not one of them imo.


The wElCoMiNg CoMmUnItY is a redherring, just like the idea that no one likes 5e and all the other things nobody every said or argued against, yet people thought to bring up. Basically...

Every.

Single.

Argument.

...that has been made along this line since Nerzenjäger replied to Shrieking Banshee last page have been either a complete fallacy or completely irrelevant to what was actually said.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: What are the BEST ideas from 5e? (other than Advantage)
« Reply #89 on: September 29, 2020, 01:21:10 PM »
I don't understand the kind of attitude of a rpg community being welcome as being a bad thing. Would you rather the rpg community treated you like an asshole and a pariah.


I didn't say I said I wanted 'Unwelcoming'. But its a toss up between 'More In Depth Discussion and harsher critique' or 'Welcoming but more soft edged'.


I value the former. That's why I'm here. Also 'Welcoming' communities have a way to become very hostile if you touch their sacred cows.


...that has been made along this line since Nerzenjäger replied to Shrieking Banshee last page have been either a complete fallacy or completely irrelevant to what was actually said.



Err....I can stop if need be.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 01:23:06 PM by Shrieking Banshee »