A pure sandbox is first and foremost about the DIY ethic. The original Blackmoor and the original Greyhawk were the template for what a pure sandbox game is. Arneson and Gygax created their own worlds and designed everything. A little later in the process Gygax invited Kuntz in as a co-ref and their each designed their parts of the pure sandbox. These are the original examples. So when you go out and buy a setting/world/module that someone else did you do not have a pure sandbox. You then have a hybrid game that is only possibly partially a sandbox here and there part of the time.

This is all established fact. It is established by the quotes about the founders who were (slight paraphrase) "amazed that anyone would want us to do their imagining for them." If you are really an old school ref, creating and designing your world is a huge part of the fun. Again this is all established fact.

Quote from: soltakss;983633But the idea that every sandbox is a blank piece of paper until the PCs go somewhere and do something just doesn't make sense to me. I like the idea of a living world, where things happen independently of the PCs, sometimes they intersect the PCs, sometimes they don't. Sometimes the PCs deliberately interact with what is going on around them, sometimes they don't.

But I have never said this, a pure sandbox does not start off for the players as a blank piece of paper. A pure sandbox is a living world created by an old school referee, so the players start in the middle of an area usually a town that they know certain things about and the further away it is the less they know. Now they may of heard of the Great Falls or the Green Mountains or the Endless Sea but they would know much beyond the name the general direction and old legends or tales (often they will know less than this). At this point they have spent time getting together the resources to go adventuring, they have been listening to rumors, news and stories the older men tell and they choose what they want to pursue. The blank sheet of paper comes in when they go off the prepared map. Then you go to create on the fly game, the real proof of the pudding as to whether you are more than average and the real test of your level of excellence as a ref. If you can create on the fly and keep your players on the edge of their seats then you are at worst well above average and may well  be excellent. On the fly is the ultimate refereeing experience, that is transcendent joy!

To create the living world you draw on all your knowledge (everything you have read, heard, seen or experienced) and your imagination (creation of new material that goes beyond your knowledge into a whole new magical realm). Anything else is not a pure sandbox and that is OK, not everyone is capable of doing this, but many are. Many though claim and preach that no one is capable of doing this and that is simply not true, it is the most evil lie ever told in the realm of OD&D. If someone tells you that you and your friends are not capable of creating a living world, then they should be dead to you, because they are a negative influence.


Edit: If you are reading this for the first time, please read it again before continuing. Since most of what I am getting is not based on what I wrote.

I personally have never claimed GMs werent capable of playing this way. I have experienced these kinds of games on both sides of the GM screen many times. The only comment I have ever made regarding what you describe is that in my opinion in all but the most rare of circumstances when the game 'moves off the prepared map' as you say, it loses something in quality. I find it very hard to believe that almost any GM can run a 'on the fly' game with the same degree of depth, detail, color and diversity that even a bit of forethought and planning would have provided. For this reason I shy from supposed "Sandbox" games as Ive witnessed this drop off in quality several times, even by experienced GMs, and havent been impressed. Generic, or worse ridiculously random, elements conjured up on the spur of the moment are usually painfully obvious.

Sounds bad but I prefer a well planned and fully detailed train ride any day.

Now that is based purely on your description of Sandbox and might change with another perception.

DiY does not equal Sandbox and vice versa. As for Blackmoor and Greyhawk both Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax drew heavily on what published about the myth and legends of the world. And we know both also drew on their favorite films of the era.

In short every referee has their inspirations and the fact that it may been published for tabletop roleplaying doesn't make more or less pure. It what one does with the material that makes a sandbox campaign (or a railroad, etc.)

Quote from: rgrove0172;983659I personally have never claimed GMs werent capable of playing this way. I have experienced these kinds of games on both sides of the GM screen many times. The only comment I have ever made regarding what you describe is that in my opinion in all but the most rare of circumstances when the game 'moves off the prepared map' as you say, it loses something in quality. I find it very hard to believe that almost any GM can run a 'on the fly' game with the same degree of depth, detail, color and diversity that even a bit of forethought and planning would have provided. For this reason I shy from supposed "Sandbox" games as Ive witnessed this drop off in quality several times, even by experienced GMs, and havent been impressed. Generic, or worse ridiculously random, elements conjured up on the spur of the moment are usually painfully obvious.

Sounds bad but I prefer a well planned and fully detailed train ride any day.

Now that is based purely on your description of Sandbox and might change with another perception.

f toster is the primary proponent of no one is capable of playing this way.

As for dropoff a lot of that has to do with how well the referee knows his world one year into the campaign will not be equal to the 43rd year into the campaign. Does the ref have easily accessible notes with names and other info that has been unused and can easily be used at this time. For instance, the only thing I find difficult is coming up with names quickly. So I have hundreds of names (people, places, things) right at my fingers tips, no more problem.

if I want to play on a railroad, I play a board game.

Quote from: Omega;983663Because real sanboxes have limits. I kid you not.

Real sandboxes do not have limits, I kid you not!

Did you really just use the phrase 'most evil lie' in respect of a game?

On point much like Estar says I guarantee that you can pick apart any sandbox setting and find nuggets of plagiarised material. Whether from history, literature or other games (RPG or otherwise).

Your trying to apply a ridiculous level of purism to gaming.

Gygax and Arneson were inventing the game.  There wasn't reams of pre made scenarios for them to potentially incorporate into their sandboxes until they started producing them.  That said, I'm pretty sure both of them drew up some maps and came up with some material prior to actually sitting down at the game table every given session.

Quote from: estar;983664As for Blackmoor and Greyhawk both Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax drew heavily on what published about the myth and legends of the world. And we know both also drew on their favorite films of the era.

In short every referee has their inspirations and the fact that it may been published for tabletop roleplaying doesn't make more or less pure. It what one does with the material that makes a sandbox campaign (or a railroad, etc.)

Yeah I said that, when I said above in the first post that

QuoteTo create the living world you draw on all your knowledge (everything you have read, heard, seen or experienced) and your imagination (creation of new material that goes beyond your knowledge into a whole new magical realm).

In what possible use of the English language would that not include myths and legends? I clearly said that I use myth, legends, folktales, fairy tales and going beyond that the whole realm of fiction and non-fiction. Again

Quoteall your knowledge (everything you have read, heard, seen or experienced)

.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983669f toster is the primary proponent of no one is capable of playing this way.

As for dropoff a lot of that has to do with how well the referee knows his world one year into the campaign will not be equal to the 43rd year into the campaign. Does the ref have easily accessible notes with names and other info that has been unused and can easily be used at this time. For instance, the only thing I find difficult is coming up with names quickly. So I have hundreds of names (people, places, things) right at my fingers tips, no more problem.

if I want to play on a railroad, I play a board game.

impurity, thy name is Crimhthan!  lol

Quote from: HorusArisen;983674Did you really just use the phrase 'most evil lie' in respect of a game?

On point much like Estar says I guarantee that you can pick apart any sandbox setting and find nuggets of plagiarised material. Whether from history, literature or other games (RPG or otherwise).

This is again just a slander and misrepresentation of what I said. Go back and read my first post I said

QuoteTo create the living world you draw on all your knowledge (everything you have read, heard, seen or experienced) and your imagination (creation of new material that goes beyond your knowledge into a whole new magical realm).

Using all those sources is what I said to do, now I did not suggest that you plagiarize it, you don't do that you create your inspired brand new material. I never advised anyone to plagiarize. Now I do admit that many do plagiarize, I do not, I create original inspired material.

Quote from: HorusArisen;983674Your trying to apply a ridiculous level of purism to gaming.

No I am just making a distinction between good, better and best. If you like mediocre, then that likely explains why you are offended.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;983682impurity, thy name is Crimhthan!  lol

Did someone rattle your chain? What in the quoted statement would engender such an insult. Are you fevered this morning?

Quote from: estar;983664DiY does not equal Sandbox and vice versa.

DIY does equal a Pure Sandbox. If you want to talk about something other than a pure sandbox go for it.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983689DIY does equal a Pure Sandbox. If you want to talk about something other than a pure sandbox go for it.

What if I make a DIY railroad adventure with a script?

Quote from: Crimhthan;983684This is again just a slander and misrepresentation of what I said. Go back and read my first post I said  Using all those sources is what I said to do, now I did not suggest that you plagiarize it, you don't do that you create your inspired brand new material. I never advised anyone to plagiarize. Now I do admit that many do plagiarize, I do not, I create original inspired material.


No I am just making a distinction between good, better and best. If you like mediocre, then that likely explains why you are offended.

Still seeing the phrase 'Many though claim and preach that no one is capable of doing this and that is simply not true, it is the most evil lie ever told in the realm of OD&D.'

So what's the difference between Giggles and Arenot or Kuntz (already funny) working together to people using other published works to supplement their sandbox.

So any way but your pure way is mediocre? Must be why no one else will game, their all waiting for a slot in your group. I'll just have to settle for my group of amateur gamers mostly story telling about railroads...choo choo.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;983676Gygax and Arneson were inventing the game.  There wasn't reams of pre made scenarios for them to potentially incorporate into their sandboxes until they started producing them.  That said, I'm pretty sure both of them drew up some maps and came up with some material prior to actually sitting down at the game table every given session.

Of course they created their own materials (maps and stuff) before they started playing, I never said otherwise. Here, since you didn't bother to read my first post, I will repeat the quote for you. Try reading it this time and you will find out I said what you just said.

Quote a pure sandbox does not start off for the players as a blank piece of paper. A pure sandbox is a living world created by an old school referee, so the players start in the middle of an area usually a town that they know certain things about and the further away it is the less they know. Now they may of heard of the Great Falls or the Green Mountains or the Endless Sea but they would know much beyond the name the general direction and old legends or tales (often they will know less than this). At this point they have spent time getting together the resources to go adventuring, they have been listening to rumors, news and stories the older men tell and they choose what they want to pursue. The blank sheet of paper comes in when they go off the prepared map. Then you go to create on the fly game, the real proof of the pudding as to whether you are more than average and the real test of your level of excellence as a ref. If you can create on the fly and keep your players on the edge of their seats then you are at worst well above average and may well be excellent. On the fly is the ultimate refereeing experience, that is transcendent joy!

Also there are many quotes by both Gygax and Arneson that makes it clear they would not have lifted someone module and plopped in into their game. You want to yell at me go ahead, but try reading what I said first, not what you assume I said.