Quote from: Crimhthan;983719If it weren't for the hateful white sheet reference I would almost think you were on the verge of saying something nice.

I was but sarcasm is genetic to my entire family line.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;983728Why did anybody even RESPOND to the original post?

Because people are gluttons for punishment, or they don't get that they are feeding the beast.

Edit: oh, and now we're guilty too.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;983728Why did anybody even RESPOND to the original post?

As long as it's in his own threads it's an exercise in extreme alternative thinking and never bad to have some discussions along that line.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;983728Why did anybody even RESPOND to the original post?

Because, just because ...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;983728Why did anybody even RESPOND to the original post?

You are looking for this thread http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?37443-Seven-Voyages-of-Zylarthen-Champions-of-Zed-and-Treasure-Hunters-possibly-more

I prefer natural beach-sand. Of course if you live near LA you'll have to be particular and sift out shards of glass, needles, and trash. Orange County beach-sand is perfect for a sandbox, just don't get arrested.

And fuck you if you try to use those Kidfettie Play-Pellets instead of real sand. GTFO with that shit.

Quote from: Baulderstone;983744You seem to have little understanding of how imagination works. It isn't something that is achieved by working in bare-walled, empty room in isolation. Imaginative people voraciously consume the ideas of others to feed their imagination. Gygax made a sandbox, but it had races from Tolkien, monsters from mythology and plastic toys, magic from Vance, undead hunters from Hammer horror films and an area of Castle Greyhawk from Lewis Carroll. Gygax even included an appendix in the Dungeon Master's Guide directing you to books that you could take ideas from. By your definition, Greyhawk isn't a sandbox because it has a Jabberwocky in it.


A "pure' imagination is an empty one. Imagination is a stew and a pure stew untainted by other sources is just a pot of simmering water.

Since you did not read the OP I will repeat part of it here for you,

QuoteTo create the living world you draw on all your knowledge (everything you have read, heard, seen or experienced) and your imagination (creation of new material that goes beyond your knowledge into a whole new magical realm).

Shame you didn't bother to read what I said before you jumped in and said how imagination works and in the process you agreed with me.

What part of "you draw on all your knowledge (everything you have read, heard, seen or experienced) and your imagination (creation of new material that goes beyond your knowledge into a whole new magical realm)" did you not understand?

1. It isn't something that is achieved by working in bare-walled, empty room in isolation. Since I did not say or imply any such thing, I agree. You would have understood that I agree if you had bothered to read what I posted.
2. Imaginative people voraciously consume the ideas of others to feed their imagination. Yeah, that is what I said.
3. Gygax made a sandbox, but it had races from Tolkien, monsters from mythology and plastic toys, magic from Vance, undead hunters from Hammer horror films and an area of Castle Greyhawk from Lewis Carroll. Gygax even included an appendix in the Dungeon Master's Guide directing you to books that you could take ideas from.  I agree with all of that since I did not say or imply otherwise. You would have understood that I agree if you had bothered to read what I posted
4. By your definition, Greyhawk isn't a sandbox because it has a Jabberwocky in it. No that is not correct, you failed to read and understand my definition.

Quote from: HorusArisen;983746I was but sarcasm is genetic to my entire family line.

Thank you!

Whilst I am truly honoured to have been the ppst to spark off this new round of madness, I have included the full post.

Quote from: soltakss

Quote from: Crimhthan;983405Sandbox is about DIY, if you use others materials, then you are automatically including all the railroads contained in that material and if you go back and re-write it to fix that then you might as well have done it yourself to begin with.

And this is what I hate about Sandbox discussions.

Why shouldn't I use a pre-written setting? I can put a Sandbox in the Plains of Prax, in Sherwood Forest or on the Planet of the Amazon Women. The fact that someone else has written them up doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't use them.

If I have a pre-written scenario, why can't I use that as well? It sets up a location, a goal and some encounters. If the PCs don't want to go to the location, the scenario doesn't happen. If the PCs don't want to follow or achieve the goal, then the scenario changes. However, one or more of the encounters might still be relevant, some might require changing on the fly depending on what has happened.

But the idea that every sandbox is a blank piece of paper until the PCs go somewhere and do something just doesn't make sense to me. I like the idea of a living world, where things happen independently of the PCs, sometimes they intersect the PCs, sometimes they don't. Sometimes the PCs deliberately interact with what is going on around them, sometimes they don't.

So, I was just amazed that using others matrials was considered bad. Admittedly, if you wrote your sandbox yourself and did not use anyone else's material, then it would be a DIY Sandbox, but you seemed to be implying that everyhting had to be new. If that was not the case then I apologise for misunderstanding. It is sometimes difficult to tease the meaning out of the rants.

Now, I don't like the He Said, I Said, He Said, I Said arguments, but ...

Quote from: Crimhthan;983651A pure sandbox is first and foremost about the DIY ethic.

Are you saying Sandbox <=> DIY, so, a Sandbox if, and only if DIY? Or are you saying Sandbox implies DIY but DIY does not imply Sandbox? I am confused. I could write a railroaded scenario myself and put it into my own Sandbox

Quote from: Crimhthan;983651The original Blackmoor and the original Greyhawk were the template for what a pure sandbox game is. Arneson and Gygax created their own worlds and designed everything. A little later in the process Gygax invited Kuntz in as a co-ref and their each designed their parts of the pure sandbox. These are the original examples. So when you go out and buy a setting/world/module that someone else did you do not have a pure sandbox. You then have a hybrid game that is only possibly partially a sandbox here and there part of the time.

So, Arneson running something by Gygax would not be a true Sandbox, in your opinion?

Quote from: Crimhthan;983651This is all established fact. It is established by the quotes about the founders who were (slight paraphrase) "amazed that anyone would want us to do their imagining for them." If you are really an old school ref, creating and designing your world is a huge part of the fun. Again this is all established fact.

I am not sure about fact.

Does everything have to be completely made up and new? Most stories and settings owe something to someone else.

I like Historical games, particularly Medieval or Dark Ages. If I run a game in Sherwood Forest and meet Robyn Hode, is that a Sandbox? What if I based everything on medieval ballads, does that invalidate what I am doing?

Some of the best Sandboxes I have played in are commercial ones. Balazar, Prax and Dorastor, in Glorantha, are excellent Sandboxes, with places and NPCs sketched out but loads of fun things to do and people to see.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983651But I have never said this, a pure sandbox does not start off for the players as a blank piece of paper. A pure sandbox is a living world created by an old school referee, so the players start in the middle of an area usually a town that they know certain things about and the further away it is the less they know. Now they may of heard of the Great Falls or the Green Mountains or the Endless Sea but they would know much beyond the name the general direction and old legends or tales (often they will know less than this). At this point they have spent time getting together the resources to go adventuring, they have been listening to rumors, news and stories the older men tell and they choose what they want to pursue. The blank sheet of paper comes in when they go off the prepared map. Then you go to create on the fly game, the real proof of the pudding as to whether you are more than average and the real test of your level of excellence as a ref. If you can create on the fly and keep your players on the edge of their seats then you are at worst well above average and may well  be excellent. On the fly is the ultimate refereeing experience, that is transcendent joy!

So, you are happy with preparing places and NPCs before the game starts?

What about preparing scenarios before you start? Is that OK, or do you just have situations that might happen?

Quote from: Crimhthan;983651To create the living world you draw on all your knowledge (everything you have read, heard, seen or experienced) and your imagination (creation of new material that goes beyond your knowledge into a whole new magical realm). Anything else is not a pure sandbox and that is OK, not everyone is capable of doing this, but many are. Many though claim and preach that no one is capable of doing this and that is simply not true, it is the most evil lie ever told in the realm of OD&D. If someone tells you that you and your friends are not capable of creating a living world, then they should be dead to you, because they are a negative influence.

Anyone can create things. It's called making it up. I make things up all the while, but I prefer to do it in someone else's environment. Clearly, this makes me inferior to you and I accept that.

I prefer to stand on the shoulders of giants rather than inventing everything myself.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983651Edit: If you are reading this for the first time, please read it again before continuing. Since most of what I am getting is not based on what I wrote.

I have read it several times and understand everything.

However, there is a big difference between understanding what you are saying and agreeing with what you are saying.

Some GMs like to build a world that has all kinds of very interesting NPCs and events and quests going on in it. Then run a 4-hour game where the players are hex-crawling through a trap-filled sewer and never get to see any of said created world.

Nearly all players don't care if a setting is sand-boxed or not when a game uses a leveling-up system. All that matters to them is leveling-up.

"No one is more dangerous than he who imagines himself pure in heart: for his purity, by definition, is unassailable." - James Baldwin, Nobody Knows My Name

Quote from: estar;983707My point is that that nothing makes them more pure than using a Forgotten Realms Guide published in 2003.

Some of us scum even use Rob Conley's sections from the Wilderlands of High Fantasy Box Set (2005) for our blasphemous Pseudo-Sandboxing!

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;983822Some GMs like to build a world that has all kinds of very interesting NPCs and events and quests going on in it. Then run a 4-hour game where the players are hex-crawling through a trap-filled sewer and never get to see any of said created world.

Nearly all players don't care if a setting is sand-boxed or not when a game uses a leveling-up system. All that matters to them is leveling-up.

Never get to see any of said created world or never choose to see it?  In a sandbox, the players choose to go through the sewer if they want to right?

I like D&D - a leveling up system.  I also care if a setting is a sandbox since that's the sort of game I want to play.  Leveling up isn't the only thing that matters to me when I'm playing...

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;983822Some GMs like to build a world that has all kinds of very interesting NPCs and events and quests going on in it. Then run a 4-hour game where the players are hex-crawling through a trap-filled sewer and never get to see any of said created world.

Some people like world building like myself. The advice I have when it comes to actual play is to ask yourself is how much of your, the referee, limited verbal bandwidth is needed to explain it. If the answer is little or none, then enjoy the worldbuilding for yourself.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;983822Nearly all players don't care if a setting is sand-boxed or not when a game uses a leveling-up system. All that matters to them is leveling-up.

In your limited experience perhaps, in my limited experience it otherwise. My interactions with others in the hobby suggest  that the reality is as diverse as people playing.

Quote from: S'mon;983832Some of us scum even use Rob Conley's sections from the Wilderlands of High Fantasy Box Set (2005) for our blasphemous Pseudo-Sandboxing!

Nice to see something using it.