Quote from: BedrockBrendan;983690What if I make a DIY railroad adventure with a script?

Then that is what you would have, that is what module writer do, create their own railroads, the writer writing the railroad is DIY and made a deliberate decision to make it a railroad, when some else buys that and uses it, it is not DIY for that customer.

Hey bro, you're taking RPGs too seriously. This is just Let's Pretend fot adults.

Quote from: Itachi;983696Hey bro, you're taking RPGs too seriously. This is just Let's Pretend fot adults.

Only if it's the one true way. Otherwise it's storytelling blasphemy!

Quote from: HorusArisen;983691Still seeing the phrase 'Many though claim and preach that no one is capable of doing this and that is simply not true, it is the most evil lie ever told in the realm of OD&D.'

Telling people that they are not capable of doing original design is an evil lie, but only in terms of the realm of the game, as opposed to the world outside the game. I was making a distinction that it is not the most evil lie in terms of the world we live in with terrorism and other things, but only in terms of the realm of the game. Sorry you did not understand how I limited the scope of what I was talking about.

Quote from: HorusArisen;983691So what's the difference between Giggles and Arenot or Kuntz (already funny) working together to people using other published works to supplement their sandbox.

They were doing original work, using someone else module is not original work, this is a really simple "original vs using a module." I am sorry if you can't understand it, I don't know anyway to dumb it down more than I already have.

Quote from: HorusArisen;983691So anyway but your way is mediocre? Must be why no one else will game, their all waiting for a slot in your group. I'll just have yo settle for my group of amateur gamers.

I never said that. Are deliberately misinterpreting what I am saying or are you just stupid?

QuoteNo I am just making a distinction between good, better and best. If you like mediocre, then that likely explains why you are offended.

So (to dumb this down for you) you go watch ten different games in progress. They range from excellent to mediocre all along the spectrum from good to bad. Most of us would prefer to play in the games that are above average or better. Some people, like yourself, believe that all games by all referee should be viewed as equal and no distinction made. The only people that don't like value judgment to be made are those that are mired in mediocrity.  I did not say that mine was the best of all, I did say that some games are way better than other. That is a fact, sorry reality is slapping you in the face.

I also made a distinction between a pure sandbox and other ways to do it. IMO a pure sandbox is the best, that does not in anyway say that other way are mediocre, that is an unwarranted conclusion that you eagerly jumped to. I've noticed that you folks do that a lot, is it required to be a member?

Quote from: Crimhthan;983678Yeah I said that, when I said above in the first post that
In what possible use of the English language would that not include myths and legends? I clearly said that I use myth, legends, folktales, fairy tales and going beyond that the whole realm of fiction and non-fiction. Again .

My point is that that nothing makes them more pure than using a Forgotten Realms Guide published in 2003. Dave Arneson directly lifted from the Hammer Horror films that were quite recent relative to the early 70s. And then there was Jason and the Argonaut that despite being based on the myth is pretty much is own thing because of the wonderful Harryhausen animation. The same with the Sinbad movies.  It all grist for the mill.

Furthermore what you do don't understand is that is that people think differently about this stuff.  That to handle things naturally on a ad-hoc basis is different for different folks. Nobody is going to run a campaign like I do. But people find elements what I do useful to incorporate in the way they do things. And what important is that they are aware of the need to keep searching and learning. Something that is polar opposite of what you advocate as part of pure sandbox campaign.

Indeed you are missing the point of the earliest days by advocating anything that is pure. The lesson to be drawn from what Arneson and Gygax did  is to define what kind of campaign you and your group wants to play, then assemble what you need from whatever source that works and above all FUCKING FUN TO PLAY. If you want to run a sandbox then be willing to let the players attempt whatever they want to do to trash the setting and handle it fairly.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983689DIY does equal a Pure Sandbox. If you want to talk about something other than a pure sandbox go for it.

You do realize that a referee can write their own railroaded adventure path as easily as buying one from Paizo. All adventure paths started out with some author "doing it themselves". The difference is we see some on the store shelves.

Quote from: estar;983647He talking out of his ass.

Said the mule of the donkey.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;983690What if I make a DIY railroad adventure with a script?

According to one of the new definitions of sandbox... That is a sandbox.

Quote from: estar;983707My point is that that nothing makes them more pure than using a Forgotten Realms Guide published in 2003. Dave Arneson directly lifted from the Hammer Horror films that were quite recent relative to the early 70s. And then there was Jason and the Argonaut that despite being based on the myth is pretty much is own thing because of the wonderful Harryhausen animation. The same with the Sinbad movies.  It all grist for the mill.

Furthermore what you do don't understand is that is that people think differently about this stuff.  That to handle things naturally on a ad-hoc basis is different for different folks. Nobody is going to run a campaign like I do. But people find elements what I do useful to incorporate in the way they do things. And what important is that they are aware of the need to keep searching and learning. Something that is polar opposite of what you advocate as part of pure sandbox campaign.

Indeed you are missing the point of the earliest days by advocating anything that is pure. The lesson to be drawn from what Arneson and Gygax did  is to define what kind of campaign you and your group wants to play, then assemble what you need from whatever source that works and above all FUCKING FUN TO PLAY. If you want to run a sandbox then be willing to let the players attempt whatever they want to do to trash the setting and handle it fairly.

Yes do anything that works for you, just don't be deceitful about what it is. Using this as inspiration

QuoteDave Arneson directly lifted from the Hammer Horror films that were quite recent relative to the early 70s. And then there was Jason and the Argonaut that despite being based on the myth is pretty much is own thing because of the wonderful Harryhausen animation. The same with the Sinbad movies.

you can call that original. Using Forgotten Realms Guide, if they told you where they got the inspiration then go back to those and do you own thing. If you want to use a tertiary source like Forgotten Realms and copy it, then don't pretend you are doing something original.
Because

QuoteDave Arneson directly lifted from the Hammer Horror films that were quite recent relative to the early 70s. And then there was Jason and the Argonaut that despite being based on the myth is pretty much is own thing because of the wonderful Harryhausen animation. The same with the Sinbad movies.

are not game materials written for a game. Anything you do with them will be original. But Forgotten realms material was written for a game, the original sources were already ported into game terms, now you are just copying someone else that already did the fun part.

I did not miss the point at all, the point was to take non game stuff and use it to inspire you game. Time after time they were quoted as being incredulous that someone would want someone else to do the creative part for them. That is the point or one them. The other point is this

QuoteIf you want to run a sandbox then be willing to let the players attempt whatever they want to do to trash the setting and handle it fairly

I have always in every post agreed with this. Although what you call "trash the setting" I consider standard normal play.

Man your a funny dude and you reinterpret your own absolutes which is even more funny

Gorebox using Archibalds work is original. Mine using say Estars isn't?

Your not saying anyone else's way of playing is mediocre when it differs from yours? Might want to go back and read your own posts.

Your pure sandbox does not exist.

It's not even your opinions I'm finding funny it's the white sheet wearing absolute way you voice them.

If your not derailing threads carry on my ducky friend, I might not agree with you (on pretty much anything) but your entertaining.

Quote from: estar;983708You do realize that a referee can write their own railroaded adventure path as easily as buying one from Paizo. All adventure paths started out with some author "doing it themselves". The difference is we see some on the store shelves.

And most do nothing but railroads, but not everyone likes a railroad, I speak for the minority that wants to maximize their fun by not getting on a one way railroad. Granted most players started after the railroad way became standard industry practice and  have probably never played anything that is not a railroad, so they do have a legitimate excuse for not knowing there is a way to have a lot more fun.

Quote from: HorusArisen;983712Man your a funny dude and you reinterpret your own absolutes which is even more funny

Gorebox using Archibalds work is original. Mine using say Estars isn't?

Your not saying anyone else's way of playing is mediocre when it differs from yours? Might want to go back and read your own posts.

Your pure sandbox does not exist.

It's not even your opinions I'm finding funny it's the white sheet wearing absolute way you voice them.

If your not derailing threads carry on my ducky friend, I might not agree with you (on pretty much anything) but your entertaining.

If it weren't for the hateful white sheet reference I would almost think you were on the verge of saying something nice.

Why did anybody even RESPOND to the original post?

(nah, let the guy write. I don't have a good laugh like this for ages )

Hey Crimh, what about opening a church? The Church of Pure Sandbox. How it sounds? You could open each session with a sermon or something.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983651A pure sandbox is first and foremost about the DIY ethic. The original Blackmoor and the original Greyhawk were the template for what a pure sandbox game is. Arneson and Gygax created their own worlds and designed everything. A little later in the process Gygax invited Kuntz in as a co-ref and their each designed their parts of the pure sandbox. These are the original examples. So when you go out and buy a setting/world/module that someone else did you do not have a pure sandbox. You then have a hybrid game that is only possibly partially a sandbox here and there part of the time.

This is all established fact. It is established by the quotes about the founders who were (slight paraphrase) "amazed that anyone would want us to do their imagining for them." If you are really an old school ref, creating and designing your world is a huge part of the fun. Again this is all established fact.

You seem to have little understanding of how imagination works. It isn't something that is achieved by working in bare-walled, empty room in isolation. Imaginative people voraciously consume the ideas of others to feed their imagination. Gygax made a sandbox, but it had races from Tolkien, monsters from mythology and plastic toys, magic from Vance, undead hunters from Hammer horror films and an area of Castle Greyhawk from Lewis Carroll. Gygax even included an appendix in the Dungeon Master's Guide directing you to books that you could take ideas from. By your definition, Greyhawk isn't a sandbox because it has a Jabberwocky in it.


A "pure' imagination is an empty one. Imagination is a stew and a pure stew untainted by other sources is just a pot of simmering water.