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Author Topic: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?  (Read 728 times)

HappyDaze

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[WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« on: January 04, 2021, 07:21:50 am »
I was looking at starting a game of WFRP4e and was going to run a one-shot with my players using the Starter Set, including the pregenerated characters. If they like it, they would then make their own characters and the campaign would begin.

However, the characters from the starter set are not starting characters. Here is what the product says:

Experience
These Characters are experienced. Each has accrued 2200 XP,
which is the equivalent of about 20 sessions of play for an average
WFRP group. Our goal when creating the WFRP Starter Set was
to create an established, bonded group that was immediately fun to
play. We didn’t skimp when doing this, and created fully-fledged,
detailed Characters who were not beginners.


So, are they implying that playing with the default starting characters will not be "immediately fun to play" and that we can expect the game is going to be a slog for the first 20 sessions (roughly 6 months of gaming for us)? If so, the idea that we have to put in that much play time to just to earn our fun seems like an ugly way to begin. Moreover, I never learned D&D by starting with pregenerated 5th level characters and then going back to make up a party of 1st level characters.

Anyone else have any feelings on this?

BronzeDragon

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2021, 09:28:43 am »
I think they're trying to soften the landing for D&D5E players.

The average 5E player (meaning someone whose introduction to D&D was 5E and that has been playing RAW) has likely never seen a PC killed. He may not have even conceived of the notion that character death is even a thing.

If you start the group with WFRP 1E basic character creation, PCs will die. I haven't read 4E completely yet, but it seems to me it has similar levels of life expectancy for PCs. Building a party of relatively experienced PCs (instead of basic character creation) heightens the chances of survival for the players if they come into the game with a D&D5E mindset.

This is all speculation, of course, but it seems logical to me. They don't want to frighten the bejeezus out of potential customers by throwing them into the cauldron right away.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 09:31:52 am by BronzeDragon »
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HappyDaze

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2021, 11:51:19 am »
So the experienced characters in the Starter Set were made as such to avoid needing trigger warnings for D&D5e players? Amusing take, but it does make me wonder how such players will take to making their own characters for the game, and considering that many of my players are D&D5e players at the moment, I have to wonder:

What happens when players play the Starter Set characters and then move to making their own characters and find that it will take them roughly 20 sessions to build up to where the sample characters started? Isn't this likely to sour them on the game somewhat?

Would it be better to allow them to build there own characters to an equivalent XP value (2,200 XP) so they are "immediately fun to play" or should they have to earn their fun through 20 sessions to get to that point?

If planning to start a campaign without any extra XP to starting characters, would it be best to skip doing a one-shot demo with characters that are 20 sessions beyond what the players are going to have at the start of the game?"

BronzeDragon

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2021, 12:06:52 pm »
I think the hope is that by the time they move on to a full campaign with full character creation, they will have been sold on the system and the game.

WFRP, as you know, has a charm all its own, but I also believe it can be shocking to current sensibilities.

If it were up to me, I'd chuck them in the deep end right away, but I'm not gaming with newbie players.
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Mishihari

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2021, 02:32:34 pm »
I took that to mean "fun for people new to our game."  For people with experience with it, I expect that they think starting at the beginning is fun. This reminds me of a lot of video games where you start off as a combat monster, to show you how cool combat is at the end, then you find out it's a flash-forward or lose your powers or whatever - Destiny 2 and Yakuza 3 (I think it's 3) both start this way.

Charon's Little Helper

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2021, 02:43:48 pm »
I took that to mean "fun for people new to our game."  For people with experience with it, I expect that they think starting at the beginning is fun. This reminds me of a lot of video games where you start off as a combat monster, to show you how cool combat is at the end, then you find out it's a flash-forward or lose your powers or whatever - Destiny 2 and Yakuza 3 (I think it's 3) both start this way.

I think that Darksiders did as well. (At least the first one - which was the only one I played.)

Jaeger

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2021, 07:28:01 pm »
I was looking at starting a game of WFRP4e and was going to run a one-shot with my players using the Starter Set, including the pregenerated characters. If they like it, they would then make their own characters and the campaign would begin.

However, the characters from the starter set are not starting characters. Here is what the product says:

Experience
These Characters are experienced. Each has accrued 2200 XP,
which is the equivalent of about 20 sessions of play for an average
WFRP group. Our goal when creating the WFRP Starter Set was
to create an established, bonded group that was immediately fun to
play.
We didn’t skimp when doing this, and created fully-fledged,
detailed Characters who were not beginners.


So, are they implying that playing with the default starting characters will not be "immediately fun to play" ...

That may have not been their intention, but yeah WTF.

 They just created a big disconnect between what the Starter set introduces people to, and what the actual game play will be like when they create PC's for a campaign.

I don't think that is the best way to show what your game is actually like in play.

Much better would be if they were up front with the games lethality. Delivered a good intro adventure. And then provide a bunch of pre-gens that can be introduced at various points in the adventure.

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consolcwby

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2021, 07:53:52 pm »
I was looking at starting a game of WFRP4e and was going to run a one-shot with my players using the Starter Set, including the pregenerated characters. If they like it, they would then make their own characters and the campaign would begin.

However, the characters from the starter set are not starting characters. Here is what the product says:

Experience
These Characters are experienced. Each has accrued 2200 XP,
which is the equivalent of about 20 sessions of play for an average
WFRP group. Our goal when creating the WFRP Starter Set was
to create an established, bonded group that was immediately fun to
play. We didn’t skimp when doing this, and created fully-fledged,
detailed Characters who were not beginners.


So, are they implying that playing with the default starting characters will not be "immediately fun to play" and that we can expect the game is going to be a slog for the first 20 sessions (roughly 6 months of gaming for us)? If so, the idea that we have to put in that much play time to just to earn our fun seems like an ugly way to begin. Moreover, I never learned D&D by starting with pregenerated 5th level characters and then going back to make up a party of 1st level characters.

Anyone else have any feelings on this?
I have played and still own 2e, and I can attest they did a VERY GOOD THING by doing this!
Warhammer is not D&D. Nor is it even OSR. I say it is far deadlier for PCs given it's dark setting and rules (assuming the rules haven't changed so much). Seriously, for a beginner in the system, having a higher level than 1st is much more conducive for a module/scenario in this. Back in the day, we had a TPK by just wandering around a town at 1st level. It compliments the dark and sinister tones of the campaign world, and I wouldn't change it for anything. Becarefull of whiffs however. Adjudicate smartly to avoid the dreaded whiff-whiff-whiff 3 hour combats I had once. (GM's fault - maneuvered enemies too much, no side could hit!)
I recommend: GIVE IT A TRY. Don't be one of those people who say: "Oh! I HATE LED ZEPPELIN" when they never heard a single song before. I'm quite sure you'll dig the setting if not the entire system!
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                                                                                   https://youtu.be/Br3LRj2pwAs

HappyDaze

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2021, 08:21:42 pm »
I was looking at starting a game of WFRP4e and was going to run a one-shot with my players using the Starter Set, including the pregenerated characters. If they like it, they would then make their own characters and the campaign would begin.

However, the characters from the starter set are not starting characters. Here is what the product says:

Experience
These Characters are experienced. Each has accrued 2200 XP,
which is the equivalent of about 20 sessions of play for an average
WFRP group. Our goal when creating the WFRP Starter Set was
to create an established, bonded group that was immediately fun to
play. We didn’t skimp when doing this, and created fully-fledged,
detailed Characters who were not beginners.


So, are they implying that playing with the default starting characters will not be "immediately fun to play" and that we can expect the game is going to be a slog for the first 20 sessions (roughly 6 months of gaming for us)? If so, the idea that we have to put in that much play time to just to earn our fun seems like an ugly way to begin. Moreover, I never learned D&D by starting with pregenerated 5th level characters and then going back to make up a party of 1st level characters.

Anyone else have any feelings on this?
I have played and still own 2e, and I can attest they did a VERY GOOD THING by doing this!
Warhammer is not D&D. Nor is it even OSR. I say it is far deadlier for PCs given it's dark setting and rules (assuming the rules haven't changed so much). Seriously, for a beginner in the system, having a higher level than 1st is much more conducive for a module/scenario in this. Back in the day, we had a TPK by just wandering around a town at 1st level. It compliments the dark and sinister tones of the campaign world, and I wouldn't change it for anything. Becarefull of whiffs however. Adjudicate smartly to avoid the dreaded whiff-whiff-whiff 3 hour combats I had once. (GM's fault - maneuvered enemies too much, no side could hit!)
I recommend: GIVE IT A TRY. Don't be one of those people who say: "Oh! I HATE LED ZEPPELIN" when they never heard a single song before. I'm quite sure you'll dig the setting if not the entire system!
Give what a try? The starter set characters (with their 2200 XP bump) or beginning characters as generated by the core book? Your post seems to indicate...um, not sure which...both maybe?

myleftnut

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2021, 01:25:19 am »
I’ve never played WFRP so my point is probably moot but a fantasy game where it takes 6 months for the characters to get heroic doesn’t sound very appealing.  This isn’t survival horror.  Age of Sigmar Soulbound just came out by the same publisher and your characters basically start as super heroes.   8)

SHARK

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2021, 02:06:18 am »
Greetings!

Yeah, 2200 XP takes 6 months of play to reach? I'm not buying it. In WHFRP 1E, I think most game sessions averaged about 300-600 XP. That holding true, reaching 2200 XP should take about 6 game sessions to reach. Maybe 8. Assuming a Career takes about 500 XP to fulfill, that's probably a Character that has accumulated three or four careers, so, definitely a formidable Character in Warhammer. Probably has two or three attacks per round, WS of 60%-70% and if the Character is a Cleric or Wizard, probably has reached Level 2, with Apprentice or Initiate, and maybe one other supporting career for some extra skills or raising their abilities in some other fashion.

Besides that, though, indeed, I support throwing players new to WHFRP into the sewer as fresh, one career starting characters. Probably half the party will die before they reach two or three career, assuming they don't get eaten or chopped in half while on their first Career. It takes a bit of time for some people to realize that WHFRP isn't D&D, and your character isn't a god-like super hero. To succeed and survive in WHFRP, you almost have to be a ruthless "Chaotic Neutral or Lawful Neutral" character in outlook--you have to maximize every resource, every advantage, using force, guile, ambush, deception, to defeat your opponents.

That is one of the great features of WHFRP is the overall lethality of the *system* as well as the game world and society. In addition to absolutely brutal critical hit tables, terrible maiming and crippling, contracting virulent and often disfiguring diseases--even when recovered from, and avoiding dying, you may still suffer some kind of penalty or disadvantage as a consequence. THEN, there's also the psychological trauma and insanities which can be gained from enduring harrowing experiences while fighting Chaos Beastmen, filthy Skaven, or dark and wicked Demonologists. Much of the fun in WHFRP is not so much the destination, but the journey getting there.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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BronzeDragon

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2021, 03:25:15 am »
I’ve never played WFRP so my point is probably moot but a fantasy game where it takes 6 months for the characters to get heroic doesn’t sound very appealing.  This isn’t survival horror.  Age of Sigmar Soulbound just came out by the same publisher and your characters basically start as super heroes.   8)

Age of Shitmar is WINO.
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myleftnut

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2021, 03:35:09 am »
I’ve never played WFRP so my point is probably moot but a fantasy game where it takes 6 months for the characters to get heroic doesn’t sound very appealing.  This isn’t survival horror.  Age of Sigmar Soulbound just came out by the same publisher and your characters basically start as super heroes.   8)

Age of Shitmar is WINO.

Pretty much but I was never really into the old world WFB setting.  I’m actually surprised Games Workshop allowed WFRP 4th Ed to be published considering they killed the setting.  I don’t know if the OP has his heart set on the old setting because if not I’ll throw a nod to Zweihander. 

HappyDaze

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2021, 08:42:26 am »
I’ve never played WFRP so my point is probably moot but a fantasy game where it takes 6 months for the characters to get heroic doesn’t sound very appealing.  This isn’t survival horror.  Age of Sigmar Soulbound just came out by the same publisher and your characters basically start as super heroes.   8)

Age of Shitmar is WINO.

Pretty much but I was never really into the old world WFB setting.  I’m actually surprised Games Workshop allowed WFRP 4th Ed to be published considering they killed the setting.  I don’t know if the OP has his heart set on the old setting because if not I’ll throw a nod to Zweihander.
I own Zweihander,  but I want the Old World,  and I would rather play it with the 4e game by C7.

HappyDaze

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Re: [WFRP4e] Earning your fun vs. immediately fun to play?
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2021, 08:49:35 am »
Greetings!

Yeah, 2200 XP takes 6 months of play to reach? I'm not buying it. In WHFRP 1E, I think most game sessions averaged about 300-600 XP. That holding true, reaching 2200 XP should take about 6 game sessions to reach. Maybe 8. Assuming a Career takes about 500 XP to fulfill, that's probably a Character that has accumulated three or four careers, so, definitely a formidable Character in Warhammer. Probably has two or three attacks per round, WS of 60%-70% and if the Character is a Cleric or Wizard, probably has reached Level 2, with Apprentice or Initiate, and maybe one other supporting career for some extra skills or raising their abilities in some other fashion.

Besides that, though, indeed, I support throwing players new to WHFRP into the sewer as fresh, one career starting characters. Probably half the party will die before they reach two or three career, assuming they don't get eaten or chopped in half while on their first Career. It takes a bit of time for some people to realize that WHFRP isn't D&D, and your character isn't a god-like super hero. To succeed and survive in WHFRP, you almost have to be a ruthless "Chaotic Neutral or Lawful Neutral" character in outlook--you have to maximize every resource, every advantage, using force, guile, ambush, deception, to defeat your opponents.

That is one of the great features of WHFRP is the overall lethality of the *system* as well as the game world and society. In addition to absolutely brutal critical hit tables, terrible maiming and crippling, contracting virulent and often disfiguring diseases--even when recovered from, and avoiding dying, you may still suffer some kind of penalty or disadvantage as a consequence. THEN, there's also the psychological trauma and insanities which can be gained from enduring harrowing experiences while fighting Chaos Beastmen, filthy Skaven, or dark and wicked Demonologists. Much of the fun in WHFRP is not so much the destination, but the journey getting there.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Your assumptions for XP, careers, and advancement rate may work for earlier editions (they look about right for 2e), but they are not at all accurate for 4e. Typical per-session XP award is around 100-150 XP with bonus XP for completing adventures. It might only take 300-400 XP to fast track to the second level of a career, but you'd be missing out on some Talents. Regardless, after that it slows way down as XP costs scale as you get better and better (each advance is +1% and buying advances 1-5 in a skill cost 10 XP each, advances 6-10 cost 15 XP each, etc.).