Quote from: J Arcane;340608Because Dark Heresy actually makes them money, and lots of it, while WFRP consists largely of a handful of grognards clinging to copies of books they never even published.

People are acting like WFRP was some great cash cow that they've suddenly cut loose.  That is not the case.  FFG didn't even print hardly any books for it, and the sales weren't nearly as good as DH has been by any metric I've seen.

My opinion is that DH sold well because people have been hungry for a 40K set RPG for forever.  The 40K game has been more popular than the WFB game for decades.

My point was - why bother messing with WF at all instead of just focuing on producing a kick-ass new RT game (rather than the watered-down, half-assed DH clone we got for RT).

Quote from: J Arcane;340608And if you think DH is "overly complex", you have such a warped fucking view of the system I don't see how you can justify even having an opinion on the subject.  It's not exactly D&D 4e, or even 3e.

I actually like DH but I do think it is a bit overly complex for what it needs to be.  What the 40K universe really needs is something that takes the concepts from Space Hulk, the original RT, Necromunda, and Inquisitor and bumps it up a step to full RPG territory.

I'm talking here about simplifying the whole career rank/talent/skill thing.  Eliminating the 50+ pages of advancement charts.  Paring down skills and talents to a much smaller list (maybe a dozen or so skills and twice that for talents).  Change psionics to use something more like the 40K 1st or 2nd edition rules.

Then, we could use the extra space to add in more antagonists and vehicle rules, things that are sorely lacking in the game.

Jeez Louise, that is one big box of fiddly bits.

My kids would be into that (and have lost most of the aforementioned fiddly bits) in no time.

No thanks FFG, but good luck nonetheless!

Quote from: J Arcane;340608Because Dark Heresy actually makes them money, and lots of it, while WFRP consists largely of a handful of grognards clinging to copies of books they never even published.  

People are acting like WFRP was some great cash cow that they've suddenly cut loose.  That is not the case.  FFG didn't even print hardly any books for it, and the sales weren't nearly as good as DH has been by any metric I've seen.

And if you think DH is "overly complex", you have such a warped fucking view of the system I don't see how you can justify even having an opinion on the subject.  It's not exactly D&D 4e, or even 3e.

You're kidding, right? WFRP 2e was one of the most popular rpgs out there, not counting D&D. Additionally, WFRP 3e is so completely different from 2e, that the two games could have existed side-by-side without cannibalizing sales from each other.

For Christ sakes, FFG did not kill 2e because of poor sales. The game had only been out for a few years, and had years of life left in it. You're forgetting that they even temporarily killed DH even though it sold like hotcakes. So with all due respect, you just don't know what you're talking about.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;340710You're kidding, right? WFRP 2e was one of the most popular rpgs out there, not counting D&D.

What does this really mean, though? "Most popular not counting D&D" doesn't really say much, because that's a descriptor that encompasses games that might pull 10% market share, all the way down to games that might have 1% market share.

Vampire is one of the most popular rpgs out there. So is WFRP 2e. So is Call of Cthulhu. So is GURPS. So is Traveler. I suspect, though, there's a pretty wide gulf between Vampire and Traveler when it comes to actual number of books moved.

In an industry as small as this one, it's not hard to find "popular" products that are still so insignificant in terms of profits gained there's not much to be lost in radically altering them in hopes of snagging larger returns.

To be honest, it's biggest problem as far as I can see it is it will be extremely unportable without a high chance of component damage. When I run my (usually) weekly games of WFRP 2, I cart a couple of books in a bag to my friends who live about 10 minutes walk away. If I had this new edition I'd have a large box and loads of bits of card and tokens and shit rattling around. Or I'd take some of that and leave some at home, but I'd probably end up losing bits and pieces.

It just seems like a whole lot of flashy bits with an eye to push up the game's retail price but with no practical benefit as regards to actually playing the game. Meh, and all that...

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;340710You're kidding, right? WFRP 2e was one of the most popular rpgs out there, not counting D&D.

After Exalted, Rifts, most of the World of Darkness games, and probably Savage Worlds.

(Note: I love WFRP and have almost all of the 2nd edition stuff. However, let's be realistic here.)

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;340710You're forgetting that they even temporarily killed DH even though it sold like hotcakes. So with all due respect, you just don't know what you're talking about.

FFG didn't cancel DH. That was Games Workshop. FFG was the company who saved it.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;340710You're kidding, right? WFRP 2e was one of the most popular rpgs out there, not counting D&D. Additionally, WFRP 3e is so completely different from 2e, that the two games could have existed side-by-side without cannibalizing sales from each other.

For Christ sakes, FFG did not kill 2e because of poor sales. The game had only been out for a few years, and had years of life left in it. You're forgetting that they even temporarily killed DH even though it sold like hotcakes. So with all due respect, you just don't know what you're talking about.

No, you're getting your damn history mixed up.

FFG hasn't been responsible for printing the vast majority of WFRP2's sales.  They got in on that license late, after most of the line had already been run by Green Ronin/Black Industries and the big initial sales jump had come and gone.  From FFG's perspective, 2e is peanuts and chump change.

Nor did FFG "kill" Dark Heresy.  GW killed Dark Heresy and WFRP both by killing Black Industries.  FFG are just the suckers who bought off the rights.  The difference is, DH had only just launched and was still riding the first adopter wave, plus had the advantage of being based off a far more popular franchise, so a quick reprint in good number was enough to net them what by some reports is the #2 spot on the market topped only by D&D, even after the BI shutdown.

The only one who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about here is yourself.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;340710You're kidding, right? WFRP 2e was one of the most popular rpgs out there, not counting D&D.

And most of those sales were enjoyed by Black Industries. FFG are probably not content with producing a few supplements (most of the really "big" topics having been covered perfectly adequately by Black Industries) and enjoying the tail end of the core book sales, long after most of the folk who were interested had already bought the book.

QuoteFor Christ sakes, FFG did not kill 2e because of poor sales. The game had only been out for a few years, and had years of life left in it.

It has years of *play* left, but I'm not convinced that there was years of *sales*. The game line was pretty damn complete when Black Industries shut down.

QuoteYou're forgetting that they even temporarily killed DH even though it sold like hotcakes. So with all due respect, you just don't know what you're talking about.

Bull-motherfucking-shit. FFG never "killed" DH. Dark Heresy and WFRP2 went OOP and publisherless for a while because Games Workshop shut down Black Industries. Then they licensed everything to FFG, who resurrected WFRP2 and Dark Heresy as soon as humanly possible.

You show absolutely no knowledge of the publishing history of DH and WFRP2 and don't seem to have even the slightest clue that Black Industries ever existed, or that FFG were not solely responsible for WFRP2 and DH. And you bitch people out for not knowing what they are talking about? You're fucking hilarious.

I kind of sympathise with FFG who if nothing else are doing something brave (in the Yes Minister sense) and creative with a license that would otherwise have been largely valueless to them.

Still think it would have made a lot more sense to do it with Rogue Trader instead as that is a game that needed the radical innovation.

Plus there is a proven market of 40k fanatics who would have bought it anyway.

And if it worked for RT they could have put in some solid development work and then finally ported it over to WFRP in a couple of years time when there will be more money around.  

But for Vanilla Fantasy Warhammer I just can't see tens of thousands of us shelling out $100 or what will probably be over £100 for it under present economic conditions.

And boxes that size cost a lot to produce, store and ship - if they take a loss on this one they could lose big and maybe it could drive them out of RPGs altogether.

Had WFRP 2e been marketed more effectively by GW, it would have been a serious competitor to D&D. Unfortunately, ideological concepts within GW prevented that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;340763Had WFRP 2e been marketed more effectively by GW, it would have been a serious competitor to D&D. Unfortunately, ideological concepts within GW prevented that.

RPGPundit

I agree on this.  GW's made it very clear over the years they're terrified of RPGs.

GW's afraid of making a buck, period (fucking sidecart bullshit).

Quote from: Spinachcat;340605If it was, then GW would have kept it in production.  

Nope.  GW is infamous for cancelling games.  Not because they sell, but because they don't sell well enough or are considered to be taking money away from Warhammer and 40K.

Space Hulk v3 sold out its ENTIRE 100K print run.  In under 2 months.  For a 100 dollar board game.

GW cancels almost everything that isn't Warhammer, or 40K.  (Honestly everyone is surprised the LOTR minis game is still in production.  Nobody plays it in spite of it being fantastic.)

They sometimes throw shit into life support mode on Specialist Games, but they might as well let it go OOP by that point....

Their mindset is "What?  Sell a 60 dollar boardgame and the odd miniature and supplement to go with it?  FUCK THAT.  We can sell 200-500 dollars of Space Marines to some rich kid and who cares if he stays or goes we made our money."

Quote from: jdurall;340731After Exalted, Rifts, most of the World of Darkness games, and probably Savage Worlds.

(Note: I love WFRP and have almost all of the 2nd edition stuff. However, let's be realistic here.)

Forgive me, kind sir....but I am being realistic. If I'm remembering correctly, WFRP 2e was comparable in popularity to Vampire worldwide, though it didn't have quite as much of a presence in the United States. I'm having a total brain freeze here, and for the life cannot remember where I got that info though...

Quote from: jdurallFFG didn't cancel DH. That was Games Workshop. FFG was the company who saved it.

That's irrelevant, because it still got canceled, even though it sold extraordinarily well.

Quote from: J ArcaneNo, you're getting your damn history mixed up.

FFG hasn't been responsible for printing the vast majority of WFRP2's sales. They got in on that license late, after most of the line had already been run by Green Ronin/Black Industries and the big initial sales jump had come and gone. From FFG's perspective, 2e is peanuts and chump change.

First off, you're partially correct. What I wrote was a typo (so sue me). I am fully aware of the fact that FFG wasn't responsible for most of WFRP 2e's sales. I also know that it's fucking irrelevant to my central point. WFRP 2e is a game that has enjoyed fantastic sales and popularity for many years. It could have had a solid future.

Quote from: J ArcaneNor did FFG "kill" Dark Heresy. GW killed Dark Heresy and WFRP both by killing Black Industries. FFG are just the suckers who bought off the rights. The difference is, DH had only just launched and was still riding the first adopter wave, plus had the advantage of being based off a far more popular franchise, so a quick reprint in good number was enough to net them what by some reports is the #2 spot on the market topped only by D&D, even after the BI shutdown.

Again...I know, though I disagree with you about them being suckers for buying the rights. I did not intend to say that FFG killed DH. When I wrote this...

Quote from: Sacrificial LambFor Christ sakes, FFG did not kill 2e because of poor sales. The game had only been out for a few years, and had years of life left in it. You're forgetting that they even temporarily killed DH even though it sold like hotcakes.

...what I was really referring to was GW. So chillax. It was a typo.

Quote from: J ArcaneThe only one who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about here is yourself.

I made a single typo. Try not to jump on my dick.

Quote from: WarthurAnd most of those sales were enjoyed by Black Industries. FFG are probably not content with producing a few supplements (most of the really "big" topics having been covered perfectly adequately by Black Industries) and enjoying the tail end of the core book sales, long after most of the folk who were interested had already bought the book.

There are always new topics and supplements to cover, and frankly, I would have just created a mostly-compatible new edition, with a slightly larger bestiary, and with a couple new stats like Corruption and whatnot. But you know what? That's another discussion entirely, so I won't delve into that right now...

Quote from: WarthurIt has years of *play* left, but I'm not convinced that there was years of *sales*. The game line was pretty damn complete when Black Industries shut down.

Many people would disagree with you. And what should we do then? Kill off every game that lasts longer than three years? That shit gets real old real fast.

Quote from: WarthurBull-motherfucking-shit. FFG never "killed" DH. Dark Heresy and WFRP2 went OOP and publisherless for a while because Games Workshop shut down Black Industries. Then they licensed everything to FFG, who resurrected WFRP2 and Dark Heresy as soon as humanly possible.

You show absolutely no knowledge of the publishing history of DH and WFRP2 and don't seem to have even the slightest clue that Black Industries ever existed, or that FFG were not solely responsible for WFRP2 and DH. And you bitch people out for not knowing what they are talking about?

Again...I understand that FFG did not kill DH. I made a typo. Feel free to have a conniption fit about it. And yes, I know about Black Industries as well, and I will say that GW shutting them down was completely fucking retarded. I mean...hello?! Does anyone remember how fucking baffled everyone was when DH was canceled less than a week after publication, and it was selling like gangbusters?

Quote from: WarthurYou're fucking hilarious.

I aim to please.

Quote from: RPGPunditHad WFRP 2e been marketed more effectively by GW, it would have been a serious competitor to D&D. Unfortunately, ideological concepts within GW prevented that.

RPGPundit

I agree with this. Warhammer already has significant market penetration in minis and computer games. If GW had possessed the brains to carry and market WFRP 2e in their own stores (and other places), they could have strengthened the Warhammer brand on a wider scale. What GW is doing now is just short-sighted bullshit.