Quote from: WarthurWhenever people criticise Aldis, people say "But the designers were trying to make a game with values that readers of romantic fantasy can get behind!" This implies the liberal values which you yourself point out are espoused in the Valdemar series. On the other hand, because Aldis is founded on the Divine Right of Kings and doesn't care much for individualism it isn't actually as liberal and free as it is claimed to be. So it fails on the realism angle, *and* fails on the liberalism angle.

Tolkein never claimed, to my knowledge, that Gondor was meant to be a kingdom with modern values which modern-day people could get behind.

Maybe Tolkien did say that in some letter to his friend.  Maybe not.  I don't know and I don't give a shit.  It is irrelevant to what I think about his work.  

Similarly, you've asserted something about what the authors of Blue Rose intended.  Since there are many other statements made about Blue Rose which have been blatantly false, I take that with a big grain of salt.  But even supposing that one of the authors said something wacky somewhere sometime, it makes no difference to how my games of Blue Rose run.  

Now, that said, I missed what is your actual complaint about realism / verisimilitude is.  What would a "realistic" semi-divine hart be like as opposed to the one in Blue Rose?  Frankly, the tone which I've gotten from most of the realism complaints seems to be "Well, realism is manly things like dragons and demons -- not girly things like talking animals and unicorns."

Quote from: obrynActually, it's very germane.  This is simply a part of the setting - it's one of the tropes of romantic fantasy.  Non-hereditary monarchy (with the monarch selected by outside forces to make sure they have the good of the people in mind) is simply as much a part of romantic fantasy as talking animals.  It's perfectly internally consistent for the genre.

-O

What books in the romantic fantasy genre feature this? None of the ones I've read have, and I'd be interested to see where this feature of romantic fantasy was drawn from.

Quote from: SigmundWhat books in the romantic fantasy genre feature this? None of the ones I've read have, and I'd be interested to see where this feature of romantic fantasy was drawn from.

Seriously?  I'll name Valdemar again.  Every monarch had to be a herald selected by a Companion, thus guaranteeing their goodness of heart and whatnot.

-O

Quote from: jhkimMy favorite among what I have read is Tamora Pierce's Protector of the Small series, which is generally classed as young adult, but less juvenile than Harry Potter, in my opinion.  It's about Keladry of Mindelan, the first girl to openly train for knighthood in the Kingdom of Tortall.

This is actually a very good tetralogy. My favorite bit, Keladry's a "big strapping lass", I always picture her as somewhat Linsdsey Davenportish. She's bigger and stronger than many, if not most, of the males (who seem more like average in size for medieval, while she's about 6').

Avoid the two earlier Tortall tetralogies, there's some Mary Sueness, particularly in the first one.

Quote from: obrynSeriously?  I'll name Valdemar again.  Every monarch had to be a herald selected by a Companion, thus guaranteeing their goodness of heart and whatnot.

-O

Is there a particular trilogy in this series you would recommend?

Yes, BR is not so much emulation of the romantic fantasy genre as it is a cheap copy of the valdemar series, which itself has some themes that are contrary to what you typically see in other romantic fantasy series.  In the vast majority of romantic fantasy novels, the characters are not living in a socialist utopia, they are more often living in an oppresive patriarchal regime where they are misunderstood and discriminated against, and have to prove their worth through their heart and their values.  Blue Rose as written specifically can't run that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: apparition13Is there a particular trilogy in this series you would recommend?

Yes and no.  Honestly, I re-read one of the series about a year or two ago, and found that it was simultaneously annoying and compelling all at once.

They're annoying in parts.  There's random InWord CapitaliZation and strange terms for familiar stuff.  Oh, and characters who are just a bit off.  Still, on a certain level, they somehow work if you're in the mood for light, emotionally railroaded fluff.

Anyways, I think Lackey's Last Herald-Mage series (starting with Magic's Pawn) is a pretty strong independent series.  Warning, there's lots of teh gheyness inside, so if you are worried you'll catch it from reading the books, you likely won't like it as much.  I've pretty much cleared my bookshelves of all her books except for that trilogy.

-O

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, BR is not so much emulation of the romantic fantasy genre as it is a cheap copy of the valdemar series, which itself has some themes that are contrary to what you typically see in other romantic fantasy series.  In the vast majority of romantic fantasy novels, the characters are not living in a socialist utopia, they are more often living in an oppresive patriarchal regime where they are misunderstood and discriminated against, and have to prove their worth through their heart and their values.  Blue Rose as written specifically can't run that.

Pundit?  Are you really familiar with the vast majority of romantic fantasy novels enough to speak authoritatively about them?  This from someone who declared "anyone who actually finds the ideas in Romantic Fantasy readably pleasant or appealing or realistic is mentally defective".  

Yes, Blue Rose most closely emulates Lackey's Velgarth books.  Mercedes Lackey isn't the whole of the genre, but hers are seminal works which popularized it as a genre in the mid-eighties.  Many similar tropes appear in other books, such as Diane Duane's Tale of the Five where in particular bisexuality and polyamory are openly accepted.  

Also, there is nothing to suggest that Aldis is socialist.  It is a limited monarchy, and there is no mention of any government programs or support for the people.  People buy things based on their wealth without anything from the government unless you are a knight or envoy.  Aldis has an extremely powerful Merchant's Guild, which has a direct voice in the government. (This itself is a dangerous idea that diverges from the free market ideal, but it is hardly socialist.)  As far as I can tell, you have leapt from the description that Aldis has generally happy people who are accepting of homosexuals to the conclusion that it is socialist.

I believe the "Aldis = socialist" taunts are a product of the alignment system, and are based on two premises:

- Aldis is meant to be, broadly speaking, the most Light-based society in the game world. Which isn't to say it perfectly represents the qualities of the Light, but it certainly seems to strive to adhere to its principles as well as it can.

- The Light is associated with community spirit, selflessness, and generally acting for the good of all. The Shadow is about individualism, and pursuing one's own needs.

From a certain perspective, capitalism = individualism and socialism = collectivism, therefore the above two premises taken together lead a good many people (myself not included this time) to conclude that Aldis is, if not a socialist state, at least the sort of place which could happily adopt socialist values.

Quote from: WarthurFrom a certain perspective, capitalism = individualism and socialism = collectivism, therefore the above two premises taken together lead a good many people (myself not included this time) to conclude that Aldis is, if not a socialist state, at least the sort of place which could happily adopt socialist values.

Well, at least you don't subscribe to it.  To me, that's a amusingly convoluted chain of logic: light alignment means helping others and the community, Aldis seems kind of light-aligned, so therefore...  Aldis is socialist??

I've never been arguing about the economic system of Aldis; my beef has always been with:

A. The alignment system and its praising of real-life Collectivist values and demonization of individualism
and
B. the enforcement of that in Aldis via the Magic Deer.

RPGPundit

I'm thinking you need to stress that second part, Pundit. They don't seem to listen when you argue that collectivism is wrong.

Demonization of individuality is a serious issue, and I can't recall another game I've ever seen that suggested it, much less any thing else I'd consider interesting or worthwhile.

Quote from: RPGPunditI've never been arguing about the economic system of Aldis; my beef has always been with:

A. The alignment system and its praising of real-life Collectivist values and demonization of individualism
and
B. the enforcement of that in Aldis via the Magic Deer.

OK, thank you for clarifying that.  So you're just lying and making up bullshit when you call Aldis a "socialist utopia".  So given that you're lying about the socialist jab, let's examine the "demonization of individualism" in the alignment system.  

Let's compare two descriptions of evil:  

Quote___ are typically selfish and solely interested in satisfying their own desires and goals. Some justify what they want, but many don't bother.

Quote___ does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience.

OK, without peeking, which one of these is the Blue Rose villified individualism, and which one is a description of D&D evil?