Or in this case, "chick with grail". Seems like the same thing to me. Some supernatural protector of a country determines who may be King, yet there has been no hue and cry over if like there was over Blue Rose, and I wonder why.

[Disclaimer: I have no particular aversion to the magic deer in Blue Rose. There are other aspects of the setting I don't care for, such as why Jarzon is still so fundamentalist after all this time when Aldis is a buffer between them and Kern. You'd think with time and distance their memory of the threat would have faded. Now if they were the buffer state, the set-up would make a whole lot more sense to me.]

Cause WHFRP is NOT diabetes waiting to happen? Cause you don't get to be Noble by just knowing how to read? Cause Chaos Knights are an actual threat?

In the world of WHFRP, it's grim, gritty and brutishly short.(your life that is) Dangers about and no place is full of fluffy cutesy bunnies with angle wings.

I haven't seen the RPG stuff for Bretonnia, but I don't recall the Lady of the Lake doing anything besides being the object of of the Grail Quests in the TT version. (It's been a long time since I read it though).

I remember all outside influence being done by the Grail Maidens (the Bretonnian 'wizards').

Quote from: NazgulCause WHFRP is NOT diabetes waiting to happen? Cause you don't get to be Noble by just knowing how to read? Cause Chaos Knights are an actual threat?

In the world of WHFRP, it's grim, gritty and brutishly short.(your life that is) Dangers about and no place is full of fluffy cutesy bunnies with angle wings.

I haven't seen the RPG stuff for Bretonnia, but I don't recall the Lady of the Lake doing anything besides being the object of of the Grail Quests in the TT version. (It's been a long time since I read it though).

I remember all outside influence being done by the Grail Maidens (the Bretonnian 'wizards').

You have to be a Grail Knight to be King, and you only get to be a Grail Knight if the lady shows up and gives you a drink from the grail (your quest for the grail was successful), and she has her standards. Not just anyone gets to succeed.

(P.S. fluffy cutesy bunnies with angel wings = mutants. )

Plus the Lady is an elf who is using this shtick to manipulate and control the stupid humans.  They steal human children who show magic ability.  The girls come back as servants of the Lady.  Nobody knows what happens to the boys.  Still sound warm and fuzzy?

It's just not as key to the setting is it?  WFRP has one country with a magic deer, and a country that is not the main focus of the supplements.  Blue Rose has the country PCs are supposed to come from ruled by the magic deer.

It's just a much bigger element in BR.

Hell, I own WFRP2e and I was wholly unaware of this aspect.

Quote from: mhensleyPlus the Lady is an elf who is using this shtick to manipulate and control the stupid humans.  They steal human children who show magic ability.  The girls come back as servants of the Lady.  Nobody knows what happens to the boys.  Still sound warm and fuzzy?

1. That's a possible interpretation, but by no means a necessary one. The book is very clear about not making a definitive statement.

2. The original objection to the magic deer in Blue Rose was tangential to any "warm and fuzzy" impression one may have towards the setting. If it's the idea that some outside agency is making these decision for Aldis that's the problem, the same argument would apply to Bretonnia.

This is in the country where basically you have a 1% noble class with all the money, and then a 99% peasant class with zero money toiling in shit all day. Right?

-O

Quote from: obrynThis is in the country where basically you have a 1% noble class with all the money, and then a 99% peasant class with zero money toiling in shit all day. Right?

-O

If:

Supernatural entity that selects societies leadership (White Hart) + Shiny happy people setting (Blue Rose) = bad,

and,

Supernatural entity that selects societies leadership (The Lady) + grim, gritty and brutishly short lives setting (WFRP) = good,

then:

since "Supernatural entity that selects societies leadership" is constant in both cases, we can eliminate it from both formulations and are left with Blue Rose = bad, and WFRP = good.

So the question is: is there anything inhenrently objectionable about the idea of "Supernatural entity that selects societies leadership", or is it just the setting (namely Blue Rose) that is being objected to? If the former, why is the objection not being made towards Bretonnia as well?

Quote from: BalbinusIt's just not as key to the setting is it?  WFRP has one country with a magic deer, and a country that is not the main focus of the supplements.  Blue Rose has the country PCs are supposed to come from ruled by the magic deer.

It's just a much bigger element in BR.

Hell, I own WFRP2e and I was wholly unaware of this aspect.

I just got the Bretonnia supplement, and that's what triggered this. If you're setting your game in the Empire, it won't be much of an issue, but if you decide to play a Bretonnia game (and with Knights of the Grail you can), it might be an issue if the idea bothers you in the first place.

That was some awfully simplistic math, Apparation.  

IF you accept the constant of 'supernatural agency' as neither good nor bad, then the variable nature of the society that forms from it MUST be taken in consideration, not ignored outright.

It is the addition of 'supernatural agency' to 'shiny happy people' that makes Aldis offensive, thus Blue Rose Bad.

It is the Supernatural Agency + Shitastic lifestyles of the poor and downtrodden that makes Brettonia interesting, thus "good".

Never mind the fact that 'Magic Deer' was only one, minimal aspect of what made Blue Rose so terrible a setting.

Quote from: apparition13So the question is: is there anything inhenrently objectionable about the idea of "Supernatural entity that selects societies leadership", or is it just the setting (namely Blue Rose) that is being objected to? If the former, why is the objection not being made towards Bretonnia as well?

Um, I think you're using my quote to make an argument I'm not making.

I don't give a crap about Aldis.  I think Pundit's off his gourd, and I find his obsession with magic deer pretty sad.  I have a soft spot for romantic fantasy novels, and I think Blue Rose is pretty okay.  Not my style of gaming, mind you - but I definitely don't find it's existence somehow offensive.

-O

Cause everyone likes King Arthur?

The lady of the lake only grants the blessing to those who complete the grail quest. Questing for the grail is a major challenge.

After serving as a squire you become a Knights Errant. After doing that for a while you become a Questing Knight. IF you can manage to complete that Quest,(and it's not easy, many don't) Then you become a Grail Knight.

It takes years of training and 'proving yourself worthy' to become a Grail Knight.

You have to earn it.

Some watery tart does not throw a scimitar at you.... um, yea....

But seriously, a Grail Knight earns it. Not some deer just poking you in the head with it's antlers.

Also, the Lady doesn't choose the King(unless they changed something in the editions since I've read it), she just chooses all the Questing Knights who are worthy to become Grail Knights.

Quote from: apparition13So the question is: is there anything inhenrently objectionable about the idea of "Supernatural entity that selects societies leadership", or is it just the setting (namely Blue Rose) that is being objected to? If the former, why is the objection not being made towards Bretonnia as well?

It's the way the portrayal of the former's (the Magic Deer) effect on the latter (Aldis) which people object to in Blue Rose. Blue Rose more-or-less states outright that the Magic Deer is a Very Good Thing, and that part of the reason the setting has so many shiny happy people is because the Magic Deer is there. As far as I know, the Bretonnia supplement in WFRP doesn't say anything about whether the Lady's shenanigans are good or bad: it's just a thing that happens, and whether it's actually helped or hindered the lot of the common man in Bretonnia is debatable.

Personally, the type of utopia presented in Blue Rose is something which I struggle to get my head around. The idea of a fluffy, liberal, tolerant society with progressive and open-minded 21st century attitudes about race, gender, sexuality and whatnot arising from what is essentially the Divine Right of Kings is something I find bizarre.

Quote from: WarthurPersonally, the type of utopia presented in Blue Rose is something which I struggle to get my head around. The idea of a fluffy, liberal, tolerant society with progressive and open-minded 21st century attitudes about race, gender, sexuality and whatnot arising from what is essentially the Divine Right of Kings is something I find bizarre.

Yea, you'd think they'd have a democracy or republic, being so open and progressive and all.....

But then you couldn't be a pretty princess then, could you?

Quote from: SpikeIt is the addition of 'supernatural agency' to 'shiny happy people' that makes Aldis offensive, thus Blue Rose Bad.

It is the Supernatural Agency + Shitastic lifestyles of the poor and downtrodden that makes Brettonia interesting, thus "good".

I am skeptical that the supernatural agency has anything to do with the expressed dislike of the setting.  If Aldis had had the same tone and culture but different politics, would the same critics really have changed their mind?  My impression is that if it had instead been a political democracy, the same would blast it for being anachronistic / revisionist.  If it had been a hereditary monarchy, then the critics would be calling it a cliched, childish fairy tale.  

While Blue Rose had many faults, I think what the most vocal critics are really complaining about is the concept.  As RPGPundit puts it:

Quote from: RPGPunditThe Romantic Fantasy genre plays to the twisted world-views typically held by teenage girls, using literary and political concepts that only teenage girls or the mentally defective could possibly find satisfying.

YES, I did just say that anyone who actually finds the ideas in Romantic Fantasy readably pleasant or appealing or realistic is mentally defective; in the sense that if you are anything other than a 15 year old girl, you have clearly failed to develop reasoning, intellect, or life experience beyond the adolescent level of maturity.

I think everything else is all just fallout of some people's dislike of the perceived "girly" tone of the setting.

Jhkim:

My specific point was to address the wonky math used by Apparition, where he subtracted the 'Magic deer' from each setting, but handwaved away the actual setting to come to his 'conclusion'.


The presence, or lack, of a magic deer does not make a setting good or bad in and of itself.