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Author Topic: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e  (Read 4250 times)

Batjon

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WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« on: September 24, 2022, 08:29:17 PM »
I am trying to decide my next fantasy RPG between WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e. 

Which do you feel is the better game mechanically? Which is the best setting?

rkhigdon

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2022, 10:30:47 PM »
WFRP 4E is certainly the better game.  Now I actually like TDE5E, but the skill system is definitely a lot clunkier than Warhammer and I can understand why a lot of people don't like it all that much.

Batjon

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2022, 12:00:20 PM »
Any additional opinions?

KindaMeh

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2022, 12:17:32 PM »
I can’t really compare the two, having never played the second. That said, for the former just be a bit wary of advantage, in part because charging becomes always the default opener, and if advantage builds you can get some combat scenes that don’t make sense relative to prior character capabilities, at least from our experience. Also, spellcasting is kinda meh, given the many ways to screw it up and its questionable validity as a combat option by comparison to advantage stacking tactics. I guess if you let spells get past dodge without a roll ala magic missile (I wouldn’t), then dart becomes a spammable automatic advantage breaker, which can also be a problem the opposite way. Also, all the safe and easy spells like dart are forbidden because they aren’t color magic, lol, which makes very little sense. Even if you allow casting them with channeling to be legal in setting, not a given, that’s still a nerf and makes them less safe, ironically enough.

Still I do like Warhammer Fantasy’s setting, how many adventures they have, and the fact that there are so many careers you might start out as, and some feel like they’re just there because it makes sense someone would do that not because adventurers would want the skills, even if I feel the xp rewards for keeping what you roll could use a boost. I do also like occupation influencing status, and being the main class stand-in, with race also feeling properly differentiated. Of course, d100 rolls are pretty hit and miss, quite literally. And while advantage helps with maintaining momentum a bit it also  makes each miss feel much heavier. Anyway, fun game, just some stuff to consider.

PencilBoy99

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2022, 04:24:39 PM »
There's lots to like about WFRP 4e but it feels overly crunchy and complicated. I'd love to see a 2nd version.

Jaeger

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2022, 07:55:25 PM »
There's lots to like about WFRP 4e but it feels overly crunchy and complicated. I'd love to see a 2nd version.

That's because it is...


...

Still I do like Warhammer Fantasy’s setting, how many adventures they have, and the fact that there are so many careers you might start out as, and some feel like they’re just there because it makes sense someone would do that not because adventurers would want the skills, even if I feel the xp rewards for keeping what you roll could use a boost. I do also like occupation influencing status, and being the main class stand-in, with race also feeling properly differentiated. ...

4e is actually quite well supported - But it's increased complication really gets in the way. WFRP is essentially just selling to the existing fanbase and the few newbies they can pull in.

It is an absolute shame. WFRP has continued its role as the D&D alternative that's perpetually held back by a system that falls short in some manner.
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TommyK

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2022, 09:38:27 AM »

yeah, that's true. Too many talents that do nothing that would justify their presence, too many sklills that never get used, some of them overlap. And rules concerning weapons seem fine at first glance, only to be forgotten in the heat of the battle or misused. The core principles are good (roll under, count successes) but there is too much added on top of that. And magic system seems pretty cool at first, but when a mage starts casting spells it's sometimes 3 rounds of adding successes only to cast one spell, when the rest of the group does somthing interesting every round.

My group had an overall good campaign using 4ed, but some shortcomings of the system were beginning to be very apparent pretty quickly

Dropbear

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2022, 12:28:16 PM »
I’d suggest WFRP 2E above WFRP 4E, myself.

But the books are damned expensive when you can actually find a hard copy. The PDFs are readily available, and priced much better if you can stand to run a game solely off of digital content.

Yeah, 4E is currently the supported version but I don’t really enjoy the rules set as much, personally. It adds way more complication than it needs to, and the designers and some fans made some claims that 4E has improved on the “swingy” combat rules of 2E… that aren’t really any more swingy than 4E if you actually sit down and read the damned rules.

Tantavalist

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2022, 05:03:46 PM »
I've run a lot of WFRP 4e and while it was a lot of fun... I'm a very experienced GM who's run every edition of WFRP and knows a lot of systems beside that. I'm therefore not afraid to house-rule things where it's needed. Running WFRP 4e RAW would be another matter.

The best comparison I can think of is that it's like a PC game that's brimming with potential but bugged to hell, and the devs just don't do patches and focus on new DLC. I ran it with some fan-made mods that patch the game to a playable state. Most users won't even know to do that.

If they'd put WFRP 4e through another few rounds of playtesting and editing then it could have been great. As it is, it feels like they sent an unedited playtest document to the printers.

I can't comment on whether it's better than The Dark Eye, as I've never read let alone played that. But I run WFRP for the great adventures it's built up over the decades not the rules and so these days I just run it with whatever system I currently feel with work best with it.

PencilBoy99

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2022, 05:09:23 PM »
Can you share your house rules for 4e?

Batjon

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2022, 06:22:04 PM »
Thanks for the suggestion.  I own almost the entire line for 2e and enjoyed it immensely.

I’d suggest WFRP 2E above WFRP 4E, myself.

But the books are damned expensive when you can actually find a hard copy. The PDFs are readily available, and priced much better if you can stand to run a game solely off of digital content.

Yeah, 4E is currently the supported version but I don’t really enjoy the rules set as much, personally. It adds way more complication than it needs to, and the designers and some fans made some claims that 4E has improved on the “swingy” combat rules of 2E… that aren’t really any more swingy than 4E if you actually sit down and read the damned rules.

Batjon

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2022, 06:23:16 PM »
I would like to see these as well.

Can you share your house rules for 4e?

PencilBoy99

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2022, 06:24:06 PM »
I know *Up in Arms* (the latest supplement) has rules that simplify advantage.

Tantavalist

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2022, 11:53:04 AM »
The house rules are unfortunately not in a state to share, or in many ways even use myself. I never sat down and wrote them in one place. Quite often I just decided to do things a certain way and never wrote it down at all. This worked fine in play, we had a game every week and everyone knew how things were being done.

Then the games club we played at shut for COVID lockdown and we didn't resume face to face games for two years. When I came to look at WFRP again I found myself thinking "Shit... What were all the house rules I used again?" and not recalling half of them.

Ones I can recall are either implementations of suggested optional rules (Blackjack rolls and Advantage capped at Initiative), using the suggestions from Andy Law (which I couldn't find last time I looked) on how to best manage Size differences in combat, a different Critical Hit system that was a homebrew someone else came up with, and a magic system adjustment. The new "Up in Arms" and "Winds of Magic" supplements apparently solve the same problems I found with magic and combat but I can't comment on how well they work.

So, I wanted to like WFRP 4e and I gave it a damn good try. But it comes down to whether you think it's worth the effort to get it functional or not. If you're after a new system, look elsewhere. If you want the WFRP setting, run adventures with a system that does it better.

I've started running the campaign again with Swords of the Serpentine. I wouldn't have believed that the Gumshoe system could be made to work for a fantasy campaign (the game claims the setting is Swords & Sorcery, I'm not convinced) but it does the chaotic hijinks that are both dangerous and comical people expect from WFRP very well in a rules-lite system.

PencilBoy99

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Re: WFRP 4e vs. The Dark Eye 5e
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2022, 02:42:38 PM »
I ran a very good 10 session campaign with SotS and really liked it (just had trouble with the sandbox part).

How is it working w/ WFRP?

It has 4 fairly rigid professions = do they fit? Did you make new ones corresponding to Warrior / Rogue / Scholar / Other Thing?

How did you handle careers?