You've read it exactly correctly.  And skill checks are definitely a part of the game.  In fact, they'd prefer that's where you roll most if I read their intentions correctly. 

Yeah, it's a little more involved as the players usually say something like, "Ok, so that skill is a STR/STR/CON check, so I roll...13, 15, 10.  So I can buy that one down, that one too, and that one's OK, so that leaves me with 5 points."  And the GM replies (looking at the handy chart on the back of the high quality GM screen), "Cool.  That's a QL 2.  So you're able to lift the iron portcullis pretty cleanly, but not fully over your head.  What do the rest of you want to do?" or something like that.

The tedious part is that there are many skills and each has its own formula of 3 checks to make.  And unless it comes up often, the PCs are constantly checking to remind themselves which three their rolling.  Yes, it takes about 30 seconds each time.  You'd think it would be maddening, but I have to say, they do like rolling dice.  So 3 times as many is fun somehow.  As the GM, I'm just waiting to hear what their remaining points come out to be while I'm thinking over what I'll say if they fail, succeed a little, or succeed a lot.

That reminds me that I failed to mention how high-quality their production value is.  Admittedly, their stuff is well built.  Good art, good covers, heavy grade pages, and 1-2 ribbon bookmarks in every book.  But it is super-crunchy and the learning curve means it gets a little slow at times.

That is a crunch fest.  Definitely not what I'd want to run or play.

You could look at Death bringer by the YouTuber called Professor Dungeon master.  It is essentially just the house rules that he uses in his old school D&D. B/X I think.  It's not a complete game as you still need a bestiary and a spell list.  His advice is to make your own, including spells. 

It is grim dark.  Spellcasters are hunted by inquisition in his setting, and have to tattoo their spells on their skin, so good luck lying that you're not a spell caster. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g_6r7Ntc2Es

Another game to look at might also be the Witcher RPG.  It's a known world, being based on Zapkowski's novels, and CD Project Red video games.  It's often said the monsters are evil, but the people are way worse in this setting. 

And third, there is Shadow of the Demonlord.  It's main thing is customizing your character.  Your racial ancestry, your novice class (classic four of warrior, rogue, cleric, and magician) and your expert class, then finally your master class.   Those four combine together to create your level bonus table as you go from level-1 to level-10 max.  You could have a goblin-warrior-ranger-bard, but I have a human-rogue-ranger-conjurer.   

This is a grim dark game as it includes tables for going insane, as well as corrupting effects your soul whenever you do evil.  Aka here is how the GM can exert a bit of control/punishment on players going extreme murder hobo.  It also has 30 types of magic, like conjuring, songs, the four elements, life, death, destruction, and so on. 

I only have the players guide, but the full game includes everything you need like monsters and GM advice.  I'll add that this author loves tables. 

On TDE being an epic crunch fest.

Oh God yes. 

Over the years a distinct TDE player culture approach to the game has grown up to deal with that.

1. Don't engage with the rules unless something significant happens.
2. Have the bits that you are going to use on hand, either carefully memorized, or carefully written down. The game's publisher even publishes boxes of notecards with bits and pieces of the rules set on it to help facilitate that. 

Unfortunately I dont think TDE is ever going to make an inroads in North America imo.

The system just seems overly convoluted for the sake of it.

Insist on wanting to cater to their fanbase and only their fanbase. Not necessarily a bad thing yet will make sure they keep joining the likes of HARN and other similar publishers. With a fanbase that wants the level of D&D popularity yet wants nothing to change.

Worst they keep wanting to break into the other markets like North America and are too lazy to try and do more than a half-assed job of it. Its like they want the sales of D&D with 1/100 of the work and effort.

Before anyone says it even before D20 system spoiled gamers most were not interested in the system # rolls for the sake of it and to be different. Very hard pass.

Warhammer Fantasy has name recognition yet beyond the setting which I like is hampered a by a system in 1E and 2E that suffers from a whiff factor. "I swing and I miss" was too common at our tables and while realistic is not fun when the table suffers from poor dice rolls over the session.

The grim and gritty aspects of the setting which as I said I like are not a setting that many want to play in.

As TDE a fanabse that wants nothing to change yet expect the levels of popularity of D&D. While making excuses for the whiff factor of the system. I remember being told to get closer to the enemy while using a ranged weapon. Telling a player who is using a ranged weapon to get closer to the target kind of defeats the purpose of using a ranged weapon. Which they unfortunately they ported over to the 40K rpgs in first edition.

At least the publisher seems motivated to want it to succeed and actually putting the effort into making it successful.

Quote from: Abraxus on October 09, 2022, 11:44:59 AM
Unfortunately I dont think TDE is ever going to make an inroads in North America imo.

At least the publisher seems motivated to want it to succeed and actually putting the effort into making it successful.

I agree.

Quote from: Abraxus on October 09, 2022, 11:44:59 AM
Worst they keep wanting to break into the other markets like North America and are too lazy to try and do more than a half-assed job of it.

Disagree. The company Ulisses Spiele put in a lot of effort, censoring their artwork and changing the size of their books, it just was targeted at the wrong things.

Quote from: igor on October 09, 2022, 01:26:11 PM
Disagree. The company Ulisses Spiele put in a lot of effort, censoring their artwork and changing the size of their books, it just was targeted at the wrong things.

To be honest not sure if given they insist on keeping the system as is it will ever make a dent in North America. Too many existing rpgs that can do the same easier.

Instead of effort, they should have realized that there was no niche for their system in the US market and not bothered. (That insight required thought not effort)

Or,

They should have put in effort to design a different version of TDE 5e aiming at a niche in the US market. (redirecting effort into something more useful)

Ulisses Spiele weren't being lazy, they were being misguided.

Fading Suns is better.

Same can be said of Torg Eternity.

Since I'm used to complex systems, I've never had any problems with TDE. The game has an impressive amount of support here in Germany, but I agree that it probably will never be able to carve out a niche for itself in America. The core rules are pretty straightforward, but there are lots of supplements with optional rules that probably almost nobody uses. TDE 5e doesn't have levels and combat can be very deadly. As a result, even an experienced party can have a pretty tough time against orcs.  Moreover, healing magic is generally harder to come by than in D&D 5e.
There is also an online game reference, but not all of it has been translated into English:
https://www.ulisses-regelwiki.de/home.html

Quote from: Brooding Paladin on October 06, 2022, 06:43:31 PM
You've read it exactly correctly.  And skill checks are definitely a part of the game.  In fact, they'd prefer that's where you roll most if I read their intentions correctly. 

Yes and No.  I think the intention is that you do NOT roll a skill check for every little thing as you might do in something like D&D 5e.  I think the intention is to use skills in a manner more akin to Skill Challenges, where player skills can meaningfully have an impact on the story as a whole.  The fact that it allows characters to use different skills to get an overall quality result for a task makes it a pretty useful tool.  I imagine they use the more gamey drawn out procedure to add a little more tension to the situation which, while it works, isn't the direction I would have necessarily gone with it.

I seem to recall a couple pretty good examples of how to use the skill system were presented in the quickstart or one of the early adventures.  I'll see if I can dig them up and reference them here in the thread for people to check out.

Yeah, I'll concede that.  In using an economy of words I failed to be fully clear and you've said it better.  What I should have said is that I feel like TDE really doesn't put combat as a centerpiece at all.  There's plenty of rules for it and around it, but it feels more focused on skill challenges and social interactions saving combat only for the inevitable or climax points rather that aiming to support "kill lots of things and take their stuff."

Quote from: Abraxus on October 09, 2022, 11:44:59 AM
Unfortunately I dont think TDE is ever going to make an inroads in North America imo.

The system just seems overly convoluted for the sake of it.

Insist on wanting to cater to their fanbase and only their fanbase. Not necessarily a bad thing yet will make sure they keep joining the likes of HARN and other similar publishers. ...

...As TDE a fanabse that wants nothing to change yet expect the levels of popularity of D&D.

They can get away with all that in Germany because TDE was/is? the #1 RPG there for years.

If TDE wants to break into the US they need to do a top down redesign, streamlining the cruft out of it. But the fanbase probably wont tolerate that...

So Plan B:

Igor has it right, they "...needed to do a different version of TDE 5e aiming at a niche in the US market. (redirecting effort into something more useful)"

Quote from: Abraxus on October 09, 2022, 11:44:59 AM
Warhammer Fantasy has name recognition yet beyond the setting which I like is hampered a by a system in 1E and 2E that suffers from a whiff factor. "I swing and I miss" was too common at our tables and while realistic is not fun when the table suffers from poor dice rolls over the session.

The 'whiff' factor in WFRP is easily house ruled by starting off with slightly higher WS from the jump.

4e was a big step in the wrong direction. The added complexity brings nothing to the table. 4e is only selling to existing fans.

We did that too yet it's not a selling point where to remove the whiff factor one had to houserule.

Many players/DNS want to use RAW as much as possible imo. Not told to houserule any existing issue.