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Author Topic: WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?  (Read 1941 times)

kryyst

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« on: January 28, 2010, 12:36:55 PM »
Someone posted this up over at the rpg geek and it left an impression.
Quote from: Nathan R

Your examples of the possibilities of the narrative potential of the dice results revolve around combat. Not to dishearten anyone from a good dustup, but to incapsulate other aspects of a character's interaction with the world, described with immersive, exciting narrative.

What really matters is what’s worth 'fighting' for. A conflict emerges when a character needs or wants something that requires overcoming opposition. Opposition can be anything from convincing someone to your point of view, to an actual fight. A conflict represents a break in the normal flow of narrative. The dice should come out only when a conflict arises. There has to be some consequence to failure that someone cares about.

Once you have crystallized your intent, the players and the Games Master will set the stakes. This is built on risk vs. reward; the more you’re willing to risk, the more reward you can earn. The Games Master explains what happens if the roll succeeds or fails before the dice are rolled. Success always means that the intent you declared succeeds exactly as you described, narrated via the results in your dice pool. Failure is defined by the Games Master. Failing does not always just mean you do not succeed.

The whole conflict is a collaborative effort. Both parties have to put their Intent first. That's what drives play, and that's how players determine what they get out of winning a test. But it's equally important for the Games Master to communicate what their stakes are, so the players know what they’re risking. This has to be negotiated too. Whenever you pick up the dice, there should be real reward involved. Since that's the case, there's got to be real risk too.

Its important to make the point that in traditional ‘reactive’ role playing, ‘Narration’ of the characters actions is just a less focused version of Intent. The player states his reason for doing something and then tests an appropriate ability to perform the task. If the roll is successful, the player gets his Intent.

This is a real 'hidden' potential of the system. Try it out when your players are in conflict, but aren't in combat: see what rolling the bones can come up with to guide your narration!

I agree, Warhammer RP has taken a quantum leap, and it's a little disarming to most folks until they actually play.


The conversation was base on a review of the game and in particular about the functionality of the funky new dice and it got me thinking.  What's he's describing is stock narrative game play straight from the forge.  In particular games like Dogs in the Vineyard thrive on it, but it's seen in plenty of other swine RPG's as well.

The interesting bit is that he's bang on with how you could run these types of encounters.  Now of course it's just a style and you could run any RPG like that, but I think the dice and actions in WFRP 3 do lead to this style of play perhaps a little better then a simple pass/fail mechanic.

To expand on his point a little.  Lets take the simple scenario of talking your way past a guard.

You set the intent - Talk your way past the guard.
You set the Stakes (risk/reward) - If successful you get past the guard if you fail the guard is put on alert.

Now this works fine in a traditional game with a pass fail roll.  However in WFRP 3 now with those funky dice that event can get more developed.  You could get delay results, boons, chaos or comet results as well as simple pass/fail.  Using the rules they could very easily help lead to a more interesting story event then initially brought up.  Perhaps you succeed but are delayed meaning that some opening got missed.  Perhaps the guard lets you through only to call in aid and set a trap on your return.  There are lots of ways you could interpret the dice results beyond.   That's before you even factor in any action cards some people may have.

Yes, I know any GM can create that narration but, and maybe it's just me, but I've always prefer it when the system supports it mechanically.  What's interesting is that here we have a mainstream commercial product that has a rather narrative game mechanic built in.

You can easily play the game in a traditional action/reaction style of play but I think this potential narrative approach could really be interesting.  It's something I'm certainly going to try from now on and see how it goes.

So I can't help but wonder, what the forgies are thinking.  Here we have a high production value game game that's being put out by a huge publisher and not only does it, in many ways go against swine principles but at the same time it plays within them.
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flyingmice

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2010, 02:46:08 PM »
Forgies mostly feel soft and squishy.

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StormBringer

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2010, 03:25:30 PM »
Quote from: kryyst;357945
Yes, I know any GM can create that narration but, and maybe it's just me, but I've always prefer it when the system supports it mechanically.  What's interesting is that here we have a mainstream commercial product that has a rather narrative game mechanic built in.
I think this is actually a poor strategy for bringing RPGs into the mainstream, if that is the intent.  Highlighting the similarities to something familiar, like boardgames, would be the best way to go.  After someone is comfortable with those, the greater complexities of narrative and pacing can be addressed.

After all, first year comp lit doesn't skip character analysis and jump straight into subtext and deconstruction.  Starting with the basics, easing people in with the familiar, then expanding on that knowledge is the time-tested method.

EDIT:  Further thoughts:

Next time you get a novice at your table, watch their expression change when you go from "... and that is how we use dice and these charts to resolve combat" to "Fate points are used to control the narrative of the scene to get the outcome for your character and the group, as well as the resolution of the scene that is agreed to beforehand" (and "This is the part where you talk in a funny voice"  :)  ).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 03:29:01 PM by StormBringer »
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Tipsy

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2010, 03:41:26 PM »
Regardless of the merit of his argument, I like the part where Nathan R is disheartened that all the dice mechanics discussion for a game called Warhammer revolve around combat.

kryyst

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2010, 03:42:54 PM »
Quote from: StormBringer;357974
I think this is actually a poor strategy for bringing RPGs into the mainstream, if that is the intent.  Highlighting the similarities to something familiar, like boardgames, would be the best way to go.  After someone is comfortable with those, the greater complexities of narrative and pacing can be addressed.


I agree with you, which is why I didn't really (to the same extent that I have now) notice it before.  The game mechanics aren't written up that way.  They are fairly straight forward action/reaction rules like you see in a more traditional RPG.  I do this, roll the dice this happens.  This narrative scenario I'm talking to is a shift on that cause effect play that's easily created.  The initial draw is 100% the bits in the box.  That's it's initial draw and the marketing strategy.

Quote

After all, first year comp lit doesn't skip character analysis and jump straight into subtext and deconstruction.  Starting with the basics, easing people in with the familiar, then expanding on that knowledge is the time-tested method.


That's how the game handles it too.  The narrative approach is second 3rd year stuff.



Quote

Next time you get a novice at your table, watch their expression change when you go from "... and that is how we use dice and these charts to resolve combat" to "Fate points are used to control the narrative of the scene to get the outcome for your character and the group, as well as the resolution of the scene that is agreed to beforehand" (and "This is the part where you talk in a funny voice"  :)  ).


I couldn't agree more and if you never wanted to touch on the other stuff with WFRP you would never have to.  The whole narrative thing is something I just had pointed out to me not something I read in the rules.
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Herr Arnulfe

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2010, 05:41:37 PM »
Quote from: Tipsy;357978
Regardless of the merit of his argument, I like the part where Nathan R is disheartened that all the dice mechanics discussion for a game called Warhammer revolve around combat.

To be fair, anyone who's played published WFRP adventures in the past knows the RPG is quite different in its focus from the wargame.
 

David R

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2010, 07:52:41 PM »
Quote from: kryyst;357945

Yes, I know any GM can create that narration but, and maybe it's just me, but I've always prefer it when the system supports it mechanically.  What's interesting is that here we have a mainstream commercial product that has a rather narrative game mechanic built in.


Although I have played a few Forge games, I have never really embraced the idea of narrative mechanics. For some strange reason they seem counter intuitive when creating an interesting story. IME the most interesting kind of play/story happens when the players react/act to the GM instead of relying on the system.

Regards,
David R
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 07:54:44 PM by David R »

Peregrin

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2010, 08:37:44 PM »
Quote from: David R;358063
Although I have played a few Forge games, I have never really embraced the idea of narrative mechanics. For some strange reason they seem counter intuitive when creating an interesting story. IME the most interesting kind of play/story happens when the players react/act to the GM instead of relying on the system.

Regards,
David R


Well sure, but you could make the same argument for/against a skill system, or social combat.  Different strokes, and IMO, mostly dependent upon the people in your group and their playstyle.
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crkrueger

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2010, 09:21:37 PM »
Quote from: David R;358063
Although I have played a few Forge games, I have never really embraced the idea of narrative mechanics. For some strange reason they seem counter intuitive when creating an interesting story. IME the most interesting kind of play/story happens when the players react/act to the GM instead of relying on the system.

Regards,
David R


Pretty much, yeah.  Of course the difference is, in roleplaying the story may not come out like you planned it.  Guess a lot of people these days can't handle that, thus storygaming.
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Peregrin

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2010, 09:29:21 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;358082
Pretty much, yeah.  Of course the difference is, in roleplaying the story may not come out like you planned it.  Guess a lot of people these days can't handle that, thus storygaming.

Uh...what?  "Storygaming" puts on emphasis on creating a story through play, with plenty of random elements for outcomes (moreso than trad games, in some cases, when it comes to advancing the fiction), not player/GM masturbation.

You'll see far more wish-fulfillment type gaming with things like Exalted.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 09:32:55 PM by Peregrin »
“In a way, the Lands of Dream are far more brutal than the worlds of most mainstream games. All of the games set there have a bittersweetness that I find much harder to take than the ridiculous adolescent posturing of so-called 'grittily realistic' games. So maybe one reason I like them as a setting is because they are far more like the real world: colourful, crazy, full of strange creatures and people, eternal and yet changing, deeply beautiful and sometimes profoundly bitter.”

kryyst

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2010, 11:20:32 PM »
Quote from: David R;358063
Although I have played a few Forge games, I have never really embraced the idea of narrative mechanics. For some strange reason they seem counter intuitive when creating an interesting story. IME the most interesting kind of play/story happens when the players react/act to the GM instead of relying on the system.

Regards,
David R


I get what your saying but I don't see the distinction other then blind siding the players.  

In the guard situation the traditional RPG action/reaction method would be

You see the guard you try and talk him up, maybe make a skill check then the GM decides the results.  You as a player probably have some idea of what those results could be but you don't really know it's all on GM whim.   The stock WFRP 3 rules are this way.  The difference is the dice results can help to give the story some ideas, you failed - but here's why, you succeeded - but.  

Now I'd say 95% of my gaming life has been of this traditional method I enjoy it.  It's comfort food.  But I'm also starting to see the benefits of a little narrative loading into the game to help create the story.  In this case the core results are up front.  This isn't a case of the player succeeding and the GM still saying oh ummm sorry but the Guard just doesn't buy it even when the player made a perfect skill check.  Sure that's largely ass hat GM 101.   It's also the equivalent of 'rolling' the dice behind the screen.

Narrative control, when used properly is all about keeping tension.  You know right then and there what the risk/reward is you then have to decide as a player/character if this is a challenge you want to take.  It's all on the table and all on you.  That's pretty tense when used correctly.

However all of this is just options.  That can be supported.  If your game style is running fine with reactive play don't change it, if you want something different here's an option.  My original point being WFRP 3 once you get past the bits has some pretty cool stuff going on.  There's some neat tools in there to allow you to play different styles without changing the mechanics, just their application.
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kryyst

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2010, 11:27:05 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;358082
Pretty much, yeah.  Of course the difference is, in roleplaying the story may not come out like you planned it.  Guess a lot of people these days can't handle that, thus storygaming.


What are you talking about?  That's pure ignorance there.  A narrative gaming style isn't about removal of chance or random events.  It's strength is in creating them from a story perspective not just pulling shit out of your hat.

Traditional gaming is more about what can I get away with and less a case of what are the real possible results of my actions.  About the only truth that traditional gaming has over narrative gaming is that it's far easier for the game to be seen as Players vs the GM.
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David R

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2010, 01:34:43 AM »
Quote from: kryyst;358099

Narrative control, when used properly is all about keeping tension.  You know right then and there what the risk/reward is you then have to decide as a player/character if this is a challenge you want to take.  It's all on the table and all on you.  That's pretty tense when used correctly.


And I think this is one of the things that turns most gamers off (IME, of course). Gamers don't want to know what the risk/reward is. I'm probably not explaining right, but from a player perspective, it's the difference, between "What am I going to do?" and "This is how the scene could play out for my character".

And although I not too bothered by the difference between comfort food (trad) and noveau cuisine (Forgey) , experience has shown me that some playstyles are more accesible than others.

To each his own and I heard good stuff about this edition of WFRP but it's just not my thing.

Regards,
David R

kryyst

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2010, 07:49:11 AM »
Quote from: David R;358139
And I think this is one of the things that turns most gamers off (IME, of course). Gamers don't want to know what the risk/reward is. I'm probably not explaining right, but from a player perspective, it's the difference, between "What am I going to do?" and "This is how the scene could play out for my character".

And although I not too bothered by the difference between comfort food (trad) and noveau cuisine (Forgey) , experience has shown me that some playstyles are more accesible than others.

To each his own and I heard good stuff about this edition of WFRP but it's just not my thing.

Regards,
David R


That very much depends on the crowd of gamers.  But I agree it's not for everyone, nor am I trying to sell it.  It's just an alternative play style that the new WFRP supports.  It is in no way the default play style for that game.

But as far as accessibility goes it's entirely based on how your introduced to the game at hand.  This approach doesn't require any more work then the other.  The only difference is that the player(s) and GM discuss what could happen before the dice are rolled.  It's like pre-loading the story.
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Herr Arnulfe

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WFRP 3 - I wonder how the forgies feel?
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2010, 10:59:22 AM »
Quote from: kryyst;358099
The stock WFRP 3 rules are this way.  The difference is the dice results can help to give the story some ideas, you failed - but here's why, you succeeded - but.

In terms of providing Narrativist support, I think v3's die mechanic is rather primitive and limited. About the most you'll get out of it is along the lines of: "you failed because you were too Reckless/Conservative" or "you passed because of your Expertise" or "you gain a Stress because of the darkness". After going through the colour/symbol association process a few times, it gets repetitive. Unfortunately, v3's die colour coding frames narrative primarily in terms of rules mechanics that correspond to a pretty narrow range of variables.