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Author Topic: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?  (Read 7497 times)

Jaeger

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2022, 09:06:40 PM »
I've always preferred humancentric games. But I'll allow Elves, Dwarfs, and Halflings in its WFRP or OSR.

Absolutely NO tieflings or bipedal flowery unicorns or any of that nu D&D namby-pamby krud.
If I wanted to play Tolkein, I’d find a Middle Earth RPG designed to specifically embody its themes.

The insistence that all settings must be Tolkeinalikes is, to me, a sign of creative bankruptcy… aping the master’s works like a cargo cult who understands only the shapes and not its meanings.

Give me a setting where humans from the surface world and dragonborn from the hollow earth once fought a war so terrible that the human nobles turned to infernalism and became the first tieflings as part of bargain to end it… which the demons did by shattering the world; obliterating the human and dragonborn empires alike and unleashing terrible demonic monsters upon the world and leaving the survivors; humans, dragonborn and tieflings; to rebuild civilization in a world now filled with ruins and monsters.

No elves, no dwarves, no halflings, no orcs… but a solid setting for all manner of adventures with the adaptable humans, magical tieflings (descendants of fallen noble houses) and mighty dragonborn as PCs whose people are forced to work together if they hope to survive… and where scouring the ruins of civilization for lost treasures while risking deadly demonic monsters is one of the most risky but effective means of aiding civilization.

But I’m sure Tolkein-ripoff #573 has just as much to offer that we haven’t seen on the other 572.

Cargo cult, that´s brilliant! ;D


Not really.

The main complaint being that everyone plays Dwarves, elves halflings etc, as humans in cosplay with no regard for setting.

The solution to the tolkienesque "cargo cult"?

Dragonborn and Tieflings that everyone will still play as humans in cosplay...


Which is why I strongly prefer human-centric campaigns.

And while burning wheel was a trainwreck of a game, it still had some good ideas. Like mechanics for Elven grief and Dwarven greed. Putting a strong mechanical flavor on the demi-human races.

The only real way in RPG's to get people to play demi-human races different is by having the races tied to specific thematic archetype mechanics directly related to the setting. Which is something that D&D has never done.

"Limits" like class and level restrictions are the first things that will get house ruled out of the game.

Otherwise, just replacing Elves, Dwarves, and halflings, with Dragonborn, Tieflings, and Tinker Gnomes is nothing more than a costume change for your players.
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Shrieking Banshee

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #91 on: October 17, 2022, 11:22:46 PM »
The main complaint being that everyone plays Dwarves, elves halflings etc, as humans in cosplay with no regard for setting.

No, thats not even CLOSE to whats being talked about. Its that they are added IN with no regard to setting. Do they add anything? Do their relationships add anything new? Players playing them bad is a group thing, not a setting issue.

Rob Necronomicon even put a thing on the pulse directly: Somehow Dwarves Elves and the AD&D pick and mix is exempt from his 'No speshul snowflakes' rule, even though his own personal preference is towards humancentrism.
"Why? I dunno, its how it was done before and excempt from any other judgement calls that might override my reasoning otherwise."

Your reasoning is consistent: No non-humans EVER. And thats fine and a way I like to play too sometimes.

But its unrelated to the central point, that many OSRians are cargo cultists. Thats how it was before, and thats how its to be done.

VisionStorm

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #92 on: October 18, 2022, 12:06:58 AM »
Dwarves and Elves are exempt from being snowflake races because they're fucking awesome! And everyone should like Dwarves and worship Elves!  :P

Tieflings and Dragonborn, on the other hand, are made up D&D races that exist to appeal to emo edgelords and people who're obsessed with the idea humans fucking dragons and producing offspring somehow.

In all seriousness, though, setting specificity applies to all races. Elves and dwarves should not exist in settings where they don't belong, and should probably be relegated to NPC races in worlds where they're rare elder races who're too powerful and rarely interact with mortals. Tieflings belong in Planescape. Dragonborn belong in Dragonlance.

The reason Elves and Dwarves are not considered snowflake races is because they're based in mythology and have become so widespread in fantasy they serve as cookie cutter examples of what fantasy races could be like. They've become so commonplace in fantasy they can't be snowflakes. And Halflings are there because apparently it's OK to steal from Tolkien. Then Gnomes somehow made their way in and now are stuck, even though no one plays them, because tradition.

And apparently, being OK with this is now considered part of primitive people worshiping airplanes cuz they used to bring them food.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 12:10:04 AM by VisionStorm »

Slipshot762

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #93 on: October 18, 2022, 12:37:32 AM »
i always preferred to use gnomes over halflings, halflings for me are a spot already filled by gnomes.

w/o beards how does one tell a female dwarf from a female gnome?

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #94 on: October 18, 2022, 01:37:38 AM »
The reason Elves and Dwarves are not considered snowflake races is because they're based in mythology.

They are as based in real world mythology as Pumaman. Which is to say extremly vaugely if you squint. They are re-interpretations of real world mythology (sorta mashups of multiple mythologies really) for a specific lens for a specific setting. That have been copy-pasted mostly due to uncreativity.

I mean real world mythologies have featured adventuring parties of Monkies, Pigs, Ogres and Dragon princes.

Quote
And apparently, being OK with this

Well the idea is that its based around what happened before. 'Races other then humans are lame and shit. Except the pick and mix because it came before, and any other race is special snowflake garbage even if they have all the claims of legitimacy that Tolkien has as well, if not more'.

Steven Mitchell

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #95 on: October 18, 2022, 07:51:27 AM »
"Cargo Cult" is not "wedded to tradition unreasonably".  Rather, it is being confused about cause and effect.  The metaphor is from a primitive tribe that supposedly set up elaborate rituals around downed aircraft because they liked the supplies they were able to rescue from the wrecked cargo. 

I don't know whether elements of the OSR are a Cargo Cult over races or not.  But if they are, it would be because they believe there is a correlation with certain races giving a certain vibe to their setting, when the races don't in fact do that.

Chris24601

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #96 on: October 18, 2022, 09:22:16 AM »
I don't know whether elements of the OSR are a Cargo Cult over races or not.  But if they are, it would be because they believe there is a correlation with certain races giving a certain vibe to their setting, when the races don't in fact do that.
There’s a reason I called it the “Tolkein Cargo Cult” and not the OSR Cargo Cult.

A cargo cult is a group who apes the form of a thing (ex. bamboo and rocks shaped to look like a plane) without understanding it purpose or function (how an airplane actually works) to achieve some desired end (food showing up).

Many setting designers seem to think that dropping surface deep versions of Tolkein’s races (bamboo planes) into their setting will somehow make them successful (food turning up) without even bothering to understand the deeper themes Tolkein was exploring via the races he used (how the airplane works).

None of Tolkein’s races was there just for the sake of being there; their natures and backstories and roles in the story were baked into the setting’s DNA.

By contrast most rpg fantasy settings just have elves, dwarves and halflings (only because Tolkein’s estate went after Hobbits) for no other reason than people aping the form of Tolkein think that Fantasy is just supposed to have tall lithe bow-wielding elves (and not, say two-foot tall cobblers or bakers)… at most they’re there because “their god made them for reasons.”

What anyone who’s not interested in being a Tolkein Cargo Cultist should be doing is first to decide if they even NEED anything other than humans (or if even humans are right for the particular setting… see The Dark Crystal) and then deciding what role those other beings should have in the setting and filling those in with something from myth or their own imaginations.

My example used Tieflings and Dragonborn specifically because they’re so reflexively despised by many in the OSR crowd to show that what’s important is a setting that the included races are actually tied into thematically (which in that example they made sense) versus dropped in because it’s “expected.”

The problem is never the races in and of themselves… it’s their lack of rooting in the setting that makes them feel surpurflous.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 09:24:55 AM by Chris24601 »

Steven Mitchell

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #97 on: October 18, 2022, 01:59:22 PM »

The problem is never the races in and of themselves… it’s their lack of rooting in the setting that makes them feel surpurflous.

Agreed, though I think that brings up another point.

It is often the case that races (any races, not just elves and dwarves) are tacked onto a setting with no good reasons.  It of course does not follow that all settings that have elves or dwarves are in that bucket, or that the ones that lean into that bucket are all the way in.  There's a continuum.

Also, there are a lot of other factors that drive those choices, including whether the designer even wants to make a setting where a particular race has a place to root or not.  You could say that I'm biased against tielfing because I never include them, but you could also say that I'm responsibly not including them because I'd never run a setting in which they could be appropriately rooted.  How much of that aesthetic is setting driving the race list and the race list driving the setting is not strictly one way or the other.

Jaeger

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #98 on: October 18, 2022, 02:28:58 PM »
... They are as based in real world mythology as Pumaman. Which is to say extremly vaugely if you squint. They are re-interpretations of real world mythology (sorta mashups of multiple mythologies really) for a specific lens for a specific setting. That have been copy-pasted mostly due to uncreativity....

So what.

Every new fantasy race introduced to D&D since has had even less mythological underpinnings, with even shittier lore to complement them.

The "originality" of new fantasy races is vastly overrated.


...
My example used Tieflings and Dragonborn specifically because they’re so reflexively despised by many in the OSR crowd ...

The real question is this: Why are they so reflexively despised?

And no, "cargo cult" is not the answer.


...to show that what’s important is a setting that the included races are actually tied into thematically (which in that example they made sense) versus dropped in because it’s “expected.”
...
The problem is never the races in and of themselves… it’s their lack of rooting in the setting that makes them feel surpurflous....

This is true. But it has been true with D&D from the beginning.

The addition of Tieflings, or Dragonborn to D&D have not fixed this. Their integration into various settings sucks just as hard, if not more so.

So what is the real complaint?
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Venka

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #99 on: October 18, 2022, 02:29:40 PM »
I'm gonna go with "no, there are not enough".  If I create a new setting, I often end up needing to create a new race for it.
The ideal world has an infinite number of races- or at least all the good ones, which may be a smaller infinity- plus a really great search feature. Then when you make a world you pick and choose of this ur-list and have your work done for you by this subset of the akashic records (the helpful section for DMs, which presumably is there right?).

The issue is, while there are a zillion races, many players tend to assume that any of them are there for them to iterate on, come up with a cool character with, and then find a DM's game to insert said character in.  Look at any discussion on race selection on reddit and mention you don't allow androids in pathfinder, or half-golems in 5ed, or the winged races, and watch the butthurt players roll in.  The old Giant in the Playground forums would also also talk about this.  The charop guides became totally dominated by race selection, back before you were a big old Nazi for assuming an elf had a +2 to Dex.  And this is, of course, what everyone here is discussing.

Anyway, my take is- it's not the number of well designed races, that can and should skyrocket.  It's the assumption players have that games should accommodate a much more expansive set of races than is good for the setting.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #100 on: October 18, 2022, 03:16:44 PM »
The real question is this: Why are they so reflexively despised?
Generally intolerance of other playstyles or desires, and ideological game purism.
There are other reasons, but those are the main ones.

Its for the same reason people insist a separate table for STR rolls needs to exis based on a d6.

Jaeger

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #101 on: October 18, 2022, 05:10:34 PM »
The real question is this: Why are they so reflexively despised?
Generally intolerance of other playstyles or desires, and ideological game purism.
...

I disagree.
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VisionStorm

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #102 on: October 18, 2022, 05:23:38 PM »
The real question is this: Why are they so reflexively despised?
Generally intolerance of other playstyles or desires, and ideological game purism.
There are other reasons, but those are the main ones.

No, the reason(s) they are despised have been hatched many times over, and I included some in my last post right on this same page. Jaeger even hinted at more of the issues on the same post you're replying to. You don't even have to go back to other pages or look at other threads to find them.

These are very setting-specific made up races with almost no real mythological or folkloric underpinning* that are mostly there as fanservice to appeal to certain players, while Dwarves and Elves (for good or ill) are established fantasy races with widespread recognition that have become staples of the genre. Even if they're not 1/1 based on mythology, they're far closer to their mythological counterparts than Tiefling*, and Dragonborn are 100% made up. So comparing Tieflings and Dragonborn to Dwarves and Elves is beyond apples and oranges.

And like Jaeger pointed out, including races like Tieflings and Dragonborn has not fixed the issue of races being superfluous and not thematically tied to settings. If anything it has made it worse because they keep expanding the kitchen sink, and doing so with over-specific made up races that don't even work as generic examples of what fantasy races might look like the way Elves and Dwarves do. Which only muddies the waters further and continues to compound the issue even more than 100% Tolkienisque races like Halflings and (Half)Orcs** already do.

Most game purist OSR types don't even like demihumans very much and are always bragging about how they prefer human-centric games. So I'm not even sure who these people you're talking about are.


*other than arguably Tieflings, which deviate even more from their folkloric counterparts than Elves or Dwarves and don't even share the same name, because they're not the exact same thing as Cambions, which are also radically different from folklore in D&D.

**Though, Orcs have arguably become fantasy staples as well, with their inclusion in so many franchises, like Warcraft and such.

Corolinth

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #103 on: October 22, 2022, 02:15:43 AM »
There is a certain irony to the references to "cargo cults" given that Tolkien's elves are heavily based on the Alfar and the Fair Folk, and his dwarves are likewise deeply rooted in Norse mythology. Some form of elf-like being is present in all manner of Western European mythology, and dwarves are also fairly ubiquitous. It turns out that Tolkien is just one of many literary sources for D&D. This was more well-understood prior to Peter Jackson.

People play D&D to experience their favorite stories in some fashion. What if you could be Shea Ohmsford? Belgarion the Godslayer? Lancelot du Lac? Sigurðr? Gilgamesh? The Grey Mouser? Conan the Cimmerian? Sinbad the Sailor? Ged?

Not all of these stories involve elves and dwarves, but elves and dwarves are ingrained in the public conscience. That's why Tolkien included elves, dwarves, goblins, and orcs into his fantasy novels.

The rejection of tieflings and dragonborn is probably rooted in the mentality of many of the fans of these two races. There is an undercurrent of, "We have to show everyone how clever we are by diverging from Tolkien," without realizing that Tolkien isn't the origin of most D&D elements. They get confused by halflings, and they completely overlook the fact that the Tolkien estate wasn't able to sue TSR over any other race or monster that appears in both Lord of the Rings and Dungeons & Dragons.

Jam The MF

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Re: [DND5|PF/PF2|Etc] Are There Too Many Playable Races In TTRPGS Now?
« Reply #104 on: October 22, 2022, 09:08:00 PM »
I think I've hit modifier burnout.  Just write whatever you want to on your character sheet.  I only care about your class abilities and background.  What are you supposed to be good at?  I don't care what color your skin is, what color your hair is, what color your eyes are, etc.  As far as I'm concerned; your name is Bob, and you are either a Warrior, Rogue, Mage, or Dual Class Focus.  Your character sheet for me will be very small.  Your character sheet for your own enjoyment, can be an encyclopedia.  I don't care about your rainbow shit.
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