In response to this post.

Werewolf: The Apocalypse was a game about werewolves who worshipped the Earth Mother (Gaia) and battled Evil Incarnate (The Wyrm) in its many forms, including hideous mutants possessed by evil spirits (Fomori) and Evil Megacorp, Inc. straight out of an early 90's PC ecofriendly cartoon (Pentex).

Werewolf: The Forsaken is less about saving the world from cosmic evil, and more about keeping the world safe from harmful spiritual incursions. PCs belong to the "Tribes of the Moon", who inherit an ancestral duty to patrol the borders between our world and the Shadow (the spirit world). Packs stake out a territory and defend it from spirits, as well as other werewolf packs (both ambitious rivals from the Tribes of the Moon, and the heretic psycho moon-hating spirit-friendly Pure werewolves). Keeping your turf free of negative spiritual influence also entails other, less obvious conflicts (like "disappearing" with the drug dealer who's drawing all these vice-spirits, or with the local slasher who's stirring up the fear- and death-spirits).

Werewolves typically lead lives of the "nasty, brutish and short" variety, which creates a culture of grim fatalism. They also keep a certain distance from their human relations, while simultaneously keeping an eye on them, lest they be harmed by vengeful enemies, or by the werewolf's own volatile temper. Coupled with the taboo against werewolf-werewolf relationships (which lead to far, far creepier results than Apocalypse's Metis), the result is a boatload of angst, which (like any other WW game) can be played up or down as the group desires.

tl;dr - Apocalypse was about saving Mother Earth from Cosmic Evil, and its seal-clubbing, oil-spilling megacorp front. Forsaken is about protecting John Q. Daylight Public from inhuman threats from another world he knows nothing about.

And therein you have the awesomeness that is Forsaken.

That's why I prefer the Apocalypse. I like the original game's epic, desperate fight against Evil (TM). It's so different from the other WoD games, it has a place of its own in the amongst them: the manichean, good vs. evil fight where good is doomed to lose, hence the angst.

The Forsaken, in constrast, seems just like any other NWoD game. Given the choice to play between Changeling the Lost and Werewolf the Forsaken, for instance, since they share this theme of supernatural creatures living between worlds, I'd go with the Lost every time.

Quote from: Benoist;400560That's why I prefer the Apocalypse. I like the original game's epic, desperate fight against Evil (TM). It's so different from the other WoD games, it has a place of its own in the amongst them: the manichean, good vs. evil fight where good is doomed to lose, hence the angst.

The Forsaken, in constrast, seems just like any other NWoD game.

Yup 100%

Pete

Yes, but where is the game of the straight-talking, hard-working seal-clubber who is just trying to make a honest living while constantly getting harrassed by evil, supernatural wolfmen?

I think that's called hunter the reckoning or maybe over the edge

Quote from: pspahn;400589I think that's called hunter the reckoning or maybe over the edge

and Unknown Armies maybe?

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;400590

and Unknown Armies maybe?

That's what I meant! Not over the edge.

Quote from: Soylent Green;400586Yes, but where is the game of the straight-talking, hard-working seal-clubber who is just trying to make a honest living while constantly getting harrassed by evil, supernatural wolfmen?

Give it time, that's probably the next History or Discovery Channel "blue-collar workin'-man who puts a human face on mass environmental destruction" series.  

@ Butcher - If you stop a sec to shelve the political "tree-huggin" reaction, you'll realize Apocalypse was consistent within it's cosmology.  You take a forest and pave it over with concrete, you replace the Wyld spirits with Weaver spirits.  You take a lake and pour toxic, radioactive sludge into it, you replace the Wyld spirits with Wyrm spirits.

So yeah Pentex was an environmental destroyer, it also supported organized pedophilia groups to create children with damaged souls that made them more easily possessed.  The Wyrm was the blight and corruption of everything, not just the Green Party political platform.

Quote from: pspahn;400592That's what I meant! Not over the edge.

Then again, it does fit into OtE without any trouble, as well.

Quote from: Soylent Green;400586Yes, but where is the game of the straight-talking, hard-working seal-clubber who is just trying to make a honest living while constantly getting harrassed by evil, supernatural wolfmen?

Can I interest you in a copy of Call of Cthulhu, 4th Edition?

Quote from: thedungeondelver;400605Can I interest you in a copy of Call of Cthulhu, 4th Edition?

Seal-clubbin' - that will certainly cost some sanity!

EDIT: 5th edition also has werewolves - sanity cost: 0/1D8.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;400606Seal-clubbin' - that will certainly cost some sanity!
.

Nah, it's only baby seal that you club.

Quote from: CRKrueger;400594@ Butcher - If you stop a sec to shelve the political "tree-huggin" reaction, you'll realize Apocalypse was consistent within it's cosmology.  You take a forest and pave it over with concrete, you replace the Wyld spirits with Weaver spirits.  You take a lake and pour toxic, radioactive sludge into it, you replace the Wyld spirits with Wyrm spirits.

So yeah Pentex was an environmental destroyer, it also supported organized pedophilia groups to create children with damaged souls that made them more easily possessed.  The Wyrm was the blight and corruption of everything, not just the Green Party political platform.

True. I was [strike]dickish[/strike] somewhat reductionist in my summary of Apocalypse, not out of spite (I played the hell out of it, I love it and I'd play it again in a heartbeat), but to highlight what I consider to be a significant difference.

Quote from: Benoist;400560That's why I prefer the Apocalypse. I like the original game's epic, desperate fight against Evil (TM). It's so different from the other WoD games, it has a place of its own in the amongst them: the manichean, good vs. evil fight where good is doomed to lose, hence the angst.

The Forsaken, in constrast, seems just like any other NWoD game. Given the choice to play between Changeling the Lost and Werewolf the Forsaken, for instance, since they share this theme of supernatural creatures living between worlds, I'd go with the Lost every time.

At the heart of the transition from nWoD to oWoD, lies a philosophy of "Less Is More", spurred on by what I imagine to be a mandate to clean up the massive continuity mess (and its ugly spawn, the hypertrophic metaplot) which plagued much of the oWoD's commercial life.

Much of the oWoD read like fiction. Not great or even good fiction, most of the time. Nonetheless, the oWoD was for the most part a compelling setting. You had grand conspiracies of milennia-old vampires, modern-day tribal lycanthropes fighting a doomed war to stave off Doomsday, wizards waging war against skeptical witch-burning Illuminati in magic floating castles in outer space, all beneath the veneer of Your Hometown, Only Slightly Crappier.

The problem, however, was the disconnect between the setting (as presented in both supplements and fiction), and actual play. Vampire was partcularly bad; your vampire neonate couldn't possibly become Prince of the city (or, if he did get to become Prince, he'd be but a pawn of some hungry elder), and he couldn't hope to become as badass as Lucita or whatever the lesbian stripper ninja Lasombra from the game fic was called.

So, yes, I welcomed the implosion of the bloated setting and its ill-fated, if at times fascinating, metaplot. It was (and still is) enormous fun to battle the monstrous, caricatural and hackneyed minions of the Wyrm in the rainforest, but I loved the new game with its local, down-to-earth (and, dare I say, grittier) feel. It's like they surgically excised the parts of Apocalypse I didn't care for (admittedly cutting a little bit into the "healthy tissue" of the game, as any good surgeon should; but not so much as to cripple the patient), and I feel the end result is a slicker, sharper game which drives home the trials and tribulations of being the world's shamanistic border patrol, and a monster to boot.

IMHO, YMMV, etc. I just dig me some Forsaken.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;400606Seal-clubbin' - that will certainly cost some sanity!

EDIT: 5th edition also has werewolves - sanity cost: 0/1D8.

4e has them; they're the central bad guys in one of the included mini-adventures.

I played it and didn't care for it. I stopped buying books for it.

Part of my unhappiness was, I'm certain, my character and the GMs interpretation of how the characters should use spirits. However, thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that I just didn't like the Forsaken society.

On one hand, they're portrayed as very angry, bestial creatures, always having to hold their rage in check and, on the other hand, they have all these rules and laws which they're expected to follow to the letter. It doesn't make sense to me. If they can barely contain themselves, why all the rules?

If I ever run it, I'll tone down all the rules and law-following...

Seanchai