Question followed by answers.
Lulu is an obvious alternative. I don't know if it has any political stance.
While not as bad, Lulu appears to censor stuff like Amazon does, without grabbing the headlines. For folks like Vengis, they don't give clear guidelines about what is or isn't considered "porn".
Lulu's search functionality is also total garbage. It took me 5 minutes to even find an ebook on their site.
Quote from: belabor;1074747For long I've been feeling the hobby needed a strong, international, censorship-free alternative to the American SJW controlled monopoly that DTRPG has been slowly but firmly becoming. It's never been more true than today. And judging by recent events things will only get worse from now on.
What makes today so special? What recent events are pushing you to this conclusion?
Quote from: HappyDaze;1074756What makes today so special? What recent events are pushing you to this conclusion?
I expect it's DTRPG censoring the famous SJW and accused serial sex abuser Zak S.
Quote from: S'mon;1074757I expect it's DTRPG censoring the famous SJW and accused serial sex abuser Zak S.
Same here: https://oneblogshelf.blogspot.com/2019/02/drivethrurpg-responds-to-current.html?fbclid=IwAR0mBIHcfekgpP1NizAQyNvmSVl_ro8HPOuPSLlRzhJT5ues0bUUMpZv8GM (https://oneblogshelf.blogspot.com/2019/02/drivethrurpg-responds-to-current.html?fbclid=IwAR0mBIHcfekgpP1NizAQyNvmSVl_ro8HPOuPSLlRzhJT5ues0bUUMpZv8GM)
Quote from: Tod13;1074758Same here: https://oneblogshelf.blogspot.com/2019/02/drivethrurpg-responds-to-current.html?fbclid=IwAR0mBIHcfekgpP1NizAQyNvmSVl_ro8HPOuPSLlRzhJT5ues0bUUMpZv8GM (https://oneblogshelf.blogspot.com/2019/02/drivethrurpg-responds-to-current.html?fbclid=IwAR0mBIHcfekgpP1NizAQyNvmSVl_ro8HPOuPSLlRzhJT5ues0bUUMpZv8GM)
"We all share a responsibility for the health of our hobby. Any demographic measure we've ever seen on the roleplaying hobby shows women are under-represented. Things won't improve if people shirk the responsibility to make our hobby inclusive."
I don't know about this stuff. I love playing with female gamers, players and GMs. I probably prefer them to male gamers, truth be told. I'll occasionally tweak my Meetup RSVPs to let someone I want play, and that's most likely a woman (I guess that's 'benevolent sexism') :D - I get the occasional odd/weird gamer girl, but fewer than the men (who are mostly cool too of course); generally the women are top-tier gamers and game tables benefit from having more of them.
But still and all, I can't accept that there is a natural 50-50 male-female split, that an imbalance is a sign of structural oppression in the gaming community, or that 'people' have a responsibility to get more women gaming.
Steve Jackson Games still have their Warehouse 23 web store.
I've never liked how the competition has slowly evaporated. Many gaming companies now have a link to DTRPG instead of a private web store.
Quote from: S'mon;1074760But still and all, I can't accept that there is a natural 50-50 male-female split, that an imbalance is a sign of structural oppression in the gaming community, or that 'people' have a responsibility to get more women gaming.
Under-representation? What bullshit! Is proportional representation the goal (based on general population demographics)? Then I insist that no more than 4% of gamers be homosexual, less than 1% be transgender. 11% can be black, Hispanics can be a whopping 16%, but mo more than 5% Asian.
Quote from: Joey2k;1074766Under-representation? What bullshit! Is proportional representation the goal (based on general population demographics)? Then I insist that no more than 4% of gamers be homosexual, less than 1% be transgender. 11% can be black, Hispanics can be a whopping 16%, but mo more than 5% Asian.
It does seem that along with a good third of the cis white males, to achieve proportionality we would have to drive out over half the homosexuals, nearly all the trans, and about half the Asians. :D
No one is complaining that the crocheting community isn't embracing every opportunity to attract more men for the health of the hobby
Quote from: S'mon;1074767It does seem that along with a good third of the cis white males, to achieve proportionality we would have to drive out over half the homosexuals, nearly all the trans, and about half the Asians. :D
Not to mention the atheists and neopagans ... ;)
Creating the infrastructure is one thing, but since we've found out that payment processors can be highly discriminatory, this utopian alternative wouldn't be viable for long.
Oh, another thing: Free speech doesn't exist.
Quote from: belabor;1074747For long I've been feeling the hobby needed a strong, international, censorship-free alternative to the American SJW controlled monopoly that DTRPG has been slowly but firmly becoming. It's never been more true than today. And judging by recent events things will only get worse from now on.
At this point I don't really want to deal with DTRPG any longer. I don't want to support that circus with my money, even at the cost to creators.
Are there existing alternatives for creators and customers?
Is anybody working on creating one?
(Not stepping up, not a business person. But please say somebody is.)
Start here:
https://www.namecheap.com/
then go here:
https://www.wix.com/how-to/make-a-website
Follow its instructions to set up payment processing, and put your products up for sale.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're saying that you want the reach and audience of DTRPG, but without the ability to deplatform, you'll never get it. Because without the people who want to deplatform others, DTRPG wouldn't have the gravity it does.
EDIT - yes, payment processors can withdraw support.
If you get to the level that Mastercard knows who you are, or will respond to complaints about you, congrats! You've made it. 99.9% of us will never have to worry about deplatforming even if tens of really angry SJWs send tweets to mastercard.
What a beautiful thread this is!!!
Champagne is in order!!!
Quote from: Joey2k;1074770No one is complaining that the crocheting community isn't embracing every opportunity to attract more men for the health of the hobby
Of course they're not. Even bringing that up - following a rational chain of thought to first principles - will instantly trigger the tribal war horns of the SJWs. The know they can't defend the hysteria at the heart of the dogma rationally, so they don't even try.
And like the whole movement, this is almost entirely a online thing. Almost nobody in the real world believes it's desirable that all hobbies and activities should have a 50-50 gender split. Husbands and wives, for instance, typically have different leisure activities, and this is deliberate and not regarded as a social ill by normal and happy people. The world will not be a better place if tens of thousands of women who do cross-stitching take up dungeons and dragons and tens of thousands of men who play dungeons and dragons take up cross-stitching.
Quote from: S'mon;1074760"We all share a responsibility for the health of our hobby. Any demographic measure we've ever seen on the roleplaying hobby shows women are under-represented. Things won't improve if people shirk the responsibility to make our hobby inclusive."
If I were a woman, I would avoid the "inclusiveness" in the RPG hobby too! Far too many creepy progressive dudes who think that being woke will get women to touch their pee pees.
Maybe ask James Desbrough for help. GRIM Jim did open his store and he is pro free speech.
okay I will. I'll post again here when it is up and running.
Build it. They will come.
Quote from: David Johansen;1074765Steve Jackson Games still have their Warehouse 23 web store.
I've never liked how the competition has slowly evaporated. Many gaming companies now have a link to DTRPG instead of a private web store.
That's because gamers (both tabletop and video), are a lazy lot. Possibly cowardly and superstitious as well, but definitely lazy.
I don't know if you pay any attention to video games, but PC video gamers have been in an absolute uproar over the past couple of months because of the Epic Game Store. For over a decade now, Valve's Steam has been the defacto PC video game store, and Valve has gotten lazy and complacent, letting anyone post their asset flipped games and charging a 30% transaction fee. Well, Epic decided to start their own video game store and only charge a 12% transaction fee. Over the past couple of months, both independent and high profile video gamers have been defecting from Steam to Epic Games Store, in some cases removing their game from Steam entirely. It's been driving thousands of PC video gamers
insane. "No Steam, no buy" has been the mantra for the past couple of months. They literally refuse to use another video games store and launcher on their computer because they want all of their video games to use the same launcher.
It's the exact same thing with DriveThru. I see a lot of people say that they want their tabletop RPG purchases to stay under the same roof because it makes it "easy." "No DriveThru, no buy."
I have thought about it for several years...
It's tough to eat into the big dog's market share. I would need capital to survive the early years of running such an enterprise.
I do have a dream. I was once going to call it the Liberty Digital Marketplace. It would have tons of categories as filters so people could (for example) filter out rape or strong sexual content as they pleased. It would have a simple policy like the US library system. By listing or shopping you agree to not hold LDM liable for any listings. You agree that you are free to not see or buy what you want but we will list anything that is legal.
I have also been reluctant because customer service is hard. I imagine it would eat up all my free time yet not return enough for me to replace my day job. I could be convinced otherwise...
Quote from: Apparition;1074815That's because gamers (both tabletop and video), are a lazy lot. Possibly cowardly and superstitious as well, but definitely lazy.
I don't know if you pay any attention to video games, but PC video gamers have been in an absolute uproar over the past couple of months because of the Epic Game Store. For over a decade now, Valve's Steam has been the defacto PC video game store, and Valve has gotten lazy and complacent, letting anyone post their asset flipped games and charging a 30% transaction fee. Well, Epic decided to start their own video game store and only charge a 12% transaction fee. Over the past couple of months, both independent and high profile video gamers have been defecting from Steam to Epic Games Store, in some cases removing their game from Steam entirely. It's been driving thousands of PC video gamers insane. "No Steam, no buy" has been the mantra for the past couple of months. They literally refuse to use another video games store and launcher on their computer because they want all of their video games to use the same launcher.
It's the exact same thing with DriveThru. I see a lot of people say that they want their tabletop RPG purchases to stay under the same roof because it makes it "easy." "No DriveThru, no buy."
This video game market comparison is interesting and there are definitely similarities. Personally, I tend not to buy PC video games unless they are available on GOG.com, just because their DRM-free policy is that big a deal to me (and also, I am realistically never actually going to play so many of these games as it is, missing out on a Steam exclusive is not going to leave me without games to play!) I think, with the right kind of incentive, there could be enough customers to support something like that in the RPG space. I mean, I'm not 100% sure, but maybe.
I believe Itch is growing in popularity for TRPGs...?
Quote from: Tod13;1074758Same here: https://oneblogshelf.blogspot.com/2019/02/drivethrurpg-responds-to-current.html?fbclid=IwAR0mBIHcfekgpP1NizAQyNvmSVl_ro8HPOuPSLlRzhJT5ues0bUUMpZv8GM (https://oneblogshelf.blogspot.com/2019/02/drivethrurpg-responds-to-current.html?fbclid=IwAR0mBIHcfekgpP1NizAQyNvmSVl_ro8HPOuPSLlRzhJT5ues0bUUMpZv8GM)
I can't blame them. Once you full on integrate yourself into social media and laud yourself for making moral decisions for the good of the community, you make yourself vulnerable to the mob. And it really doesn't take many maneuvers out of Ye Olde Book of Dirty Tricks to cause a lot of real harm.
Whatever reasons they give, it is entirely for self protection.
There have been several attempts over the years. But they all failed. Not unlike trying to make alternatives to Ebay. When you have a place where 90% of all sales occur, it doesn't seem like much point in trying to put your books elsewhere. Especially when DTRPG charges you more money (5% more) if you have products elsewhere
Itch.io does seem like a potential place, but I'm not sure how dedicated it is to free speech
I just pay and download, could give three shits about their lame ass politics.
Itch.io seems more geared towards video games...
Quote from: Apparition;1074815That's because gamers (both tabletop and video), are a lazy lot. Possibly cowardly and superstitious as well, but definitely lazy.
I don't know if you pay any attention to video games, but PC video gamers have been in an absolute uproar over the past couple of months because of the Epic Game Store. For over a decade now, Valve's Steam has been the defacto PC video game store, and Valve has gotten lazy and complacent, letting anyone post their asset flipped games and charging a 30% transaction fee. Well, Epic decided to start their own video game store and only charge a 12% transaction fee. Over the past couple of months, both independent and high profile video gamers have been defecting from Steam to Epic Games Store, in some cases removing their game from Steam entirely. It's been driving thousands of PC video gamers insane. "No Steam, no buy" has been the mantra for the past couple of months. They literally refuse to use another video games store and launcher on their computer because they want all of their video games to use the same launcher.
To be fair on steam users I will say this. You cannot have forums and reviews in the Epic platform while you can in Steam. So if the game is utter garbage you cannot complain about it on the platform. Epic is great for publishers, but horrible on customers. So from the gamer perspective it is more of the same shit, but less features.
Not to mention said game was going to go on Steam with preorders filled out. Everyone expected it to be on Steam. Then out of the blue they became Epic exclusive which screwed people. Thankfully they will honor the preorders, but those who were waiting now have to wait a full year before they can play the game on Steam. Those with preorders are playing the game on Steam by the way. It was a massive fuck up by the publisher who made that decision.
Quote from: belabor;1074747For long I've been feeling the hobby needed a strong, international, censorship-free alternative to the American SJW controlled monopoly that DTRPG has been slowly but firmly becoming. It's never been more true than today. And judging by recent events things will only get worse from now on.
At this point I don't really want to deal with DTRPG any longer. I don't want to support that circus with my money, even at the cost to creators.
Are there existing alternatives for creators and customers?
Is anybody working on creating one?
(Not stepping up, not a business person. But please say somebody is.)
I try not to support a far-left-wing game publisher, no matter what distributor they use.
Quote from: Apparition;1074815They literally refuse to use another video games store and launcher on their computer because they want all of their video games to use the same launcher.
That is especially lazy since you can add non-Steam-purchased games to your Library for purposes of using Steam as your launcher. It's not even hard.
Quote from: trechriron;1074874Itch.io seems more geared towards video games...
Oh yeah. But it already exists and has an audience for TTRPGs
https://itch.io/physical-games/genre-rpg
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1074927That is especially lazy since you can add non-Steam-purchased games to your Library for purposes of using Steam as your launcher. It's not even hard.
There's more to it than just that. As mentioned, it's also the lack of reviews and forums for games on Epic's store. There's also that Epic is owned partially bey Tencent, so who knows what is going to be hidden inside the launcher's code.
Quote from: rgrove0172;1074873I just pay and download, could give three shits about their lame ass politics.
Except now DTRPG will decide WHAT you are allowed to have.
If you want banned products, you will have to hunt in the far corners.
And who knows who/what gets banned next?
Who are the DTRG alternatives?
Warehouse23 and....???
Well, there's Open Gaming Store. You can find it here: https://www.opengamingstore.com/
Quote from: Gypsy Knights Games;1074969Well, there's Open Gaming Store. You can find it here: https://www.opengamingstore.com/
Since it is RPG oriented, the search is a bit better but there is no way I could find to limit the search to PDF products. (Weirdly, you can look for Print Only.) They've hidden the "how to sell through us" on their Contact Us page.
QuoteIf You're a Publisher/Vendor but not yet part of the Open Gaming Store...
Looking for info on joining the store? Send an email to help@opengamingstore.com to get the info. Our store commission is just 20% on digital (downloadable) products or 30% on physical products that WE ship. We pay you monthly for the previous months sales via Paypal.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1074935Who are the DTRG alternatives?
Warehouse23 and....???
Warehouse23 is just for Steve Jackson Games' stuff. Realistically, I see people list at either DTRPG, Lulu via their own website "storefront", or Amazon.
I wonder if someplace like Smashwords or Phoenix Pick could be induced to create an RPG version of their sites? Someplace with the infrastructure for digital and print already in place and that seem pretty politically neutralish. (I know of both publishers because of libertarian authors using their sites.)
Quote from: Tod13;1074973Warehouse23 is just for Steve Jackson Games' stuff.
Somebody might want to let all the publishers selling via Warehouse23 that aren't SJG know about that.
Not arguing that Warehouse23 is a viable alternative, but they certainly aren't just a company store. Hell, Paizo has a PDF-store, and sells a ton of 3rd-party content as well, but good luck with them if DTRPG is censoring content. Paizo would be quicker to ban content than anyone.
Quote from: kythri;1074977Somebody might want to let all the publishers selling via Warehouse23 that aren't SJG know about that.
Not arguing that Warehouse23 is a viable alternative, but they certainly aren't just a company store. Hell, Paizo has a PDF-store, and sells a ton of 3rd-party content as well, but good luck with them if DTRPG is censoring content. Paizo would be quicker to ban content than anyone.
Where is it? (Not arguing. Just can't find it.) Also, I can't find anything about getting stuff on it.
Quote from: GameDaddyokay I will. I'll post again here when it is up and running.
Please do and good luck.
Quote from: PsikerlordI believe Itch is growing in popularity for TRPGs...?
Never heard of it before, I'll get a closer look. The question is how politically neutral they are. Also, can they stand against a bunch of angry kids with psychological issues demanding product takedowns for insane ideological reasons.
Quote from: JeremyREspecially when DTRPG charges you more money (5% more) if you have products elsewhere
Woah, do they actually do something like this? Is that a normal business practice for online marketplace platforms? Sounds just wrong to me, but then I'm not a business person.
Guess that explains why it's nigh impossible to find even free stuff like quickstarts or character sheets outside DTRPG today. Years ago the usual place to look for such stuff was publisher's site, but now they mostly redirect to DTRPG, which irks me to no end.
Quote from: S'monI expect it's DTRPG censoring the famous SJW and accused serial sex abuser Zak S.
I don't care about Zak's excesses (I do like some of his products and I'd like to see Demon City published regardless of any perceived or true misconduct). But censoring creators under SJW pressure, and censoring by association in particular? That's the last straw for me as far as DTRPG is concerned.
Quote from: NerzenjägerOh, another thing: Free speech doesn't exist.
Frankly? I don't much care about "free speech" as such either. The way I see it, the variation of "free speech" that is usually discussed here, especially as it relates to your left vs. right politics, is a very American concept rooted in certain cultural assumptions that don't apply equally all around the globe. Not my politics, not my culture, don't care.
That's why I specifically used the word "censorship". I'm not about lofty ideals, it's a very concrete threat. Also one that used to be a thing in my country during my lifetime, and fuck it, I sure as hell don't want it to come back through my hobby now.
Quote from: tenbones;1074808Build it. They will come.
Joseph Browning of XRP set up Your Games Now in 2007 as a publisher-friendly general RPG PDF retailer, in response to RPGNow and DriveThruRPG merging into OneBookshelf.
They didn't come, and it shut down in 2014.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1074935Who are the DTRG alternatives?
Warehouse23 and....???
Paizo is probably #2.
If Ron Edwards can successfully create a dinky little alternative like the Unstore (http://theunstore.com/), most of these small publishers can too. Is it going to replace OBS? Not likely, but at least it gives people a choice.
Quote from: Tod13;1075009Where is it? (Not arguing. Just can't find it.) Also, I can't find anything about getting stuff on it.
http://www.warehouse23.com/products
Look at the left, under "Company", and "Show More" to expand that list.
Like you, I couldn't readily find information on how to sell through the Warehouse 23 site, but I also didn't care to spend a bunch of time digging.
Quote from: kythri;1075049http://www.warehouse23.com/products
Look at the left, under "Company", and "Show More" to expand that list.
Like you, I couldn't readily find information on how to sell through the Warehouse 23 site, but I also didn't care to spend a bunch of time digging.
:eek: Thanks!
Quote from: Pat;1075030Joseph Browning of XRP set up Your Games Now in 2007 as a publisher-friendly general RPG PDF retailer, in response to RPGNow and DriveThruRPG merging into OneBookshelf.
They didn't come, and it shut down in 2014.
I set up and run the Compose Dream Games Marketplace. composedreamgames.com/marketplace (https://composedreamgames.com/marketplace/)
Mostly carrying Canadian designers games and most of XRP's stuff. (The Canadian part is mostly by circumstance of me being Canadian and knowing Canadian game designers.)
I'm not a fan of Drivethru's extra 5%, and take a much lower share -> as do pretty much every alternative. Such as indiepressrevolution.com
The site has done alright, but needs to do better to make it worth adding more features and becoming a standalone website. I've always felt that an RPG marketplace should let anyone sell a title that they are legally allowed too.
Quote from: ThondorThe site has done alright, but needs to do better to make it worth adding more features and becoming a standalone website. I've always felt that an RPG marketplace should let anyone sell a title that they are legally allowed too.
Ok then, quick question. Would you let Zak S sell his games there? Note I'm not asking whether you approve of Zak S or his actions, just whether you would be ready to continue selling his games when blue-haired mob with pitchforks appears. Or, for instance, should Adler decide to remove Monsterhearts due to you letting Zak S sell his games next to theirs. Would you continue selling a controversial creator's work despite possible backlash, perhaps from other authors you carry?
Quote from: Snowman0147;1074799Maybe ask James Desbrough for help. GRIM Jim did open his store and he is pro free speech.
Yeah, when he announced it in the last Inappropriate Characters I thought "well, that's not going to go anywhere", but in retrospect he may just benefit from fantastically lucky timing.
The problem is still whether he can actually deliver on it. Can he do large volumes? PDF AND PoD?
If he really makes a go at it, it might be good for everyone.
Quote from: Psikerlord;1074836I believe Itch is growing in popularity for TRPGs...?
Itch? What's that (hard to google)? And is it free-speech?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1075114Yeah, when he announced it in the last Inappropriate Characters I thought "well, that's not going to go anywhere", but in retrospect he may just benefit from fantastically lucky timing.
The problem is still whether he can actually deliver on it. Can he do large volumes? PDF AND PoD?
If he really makes a go at it, it might be good for everyone.
Well as a proud Trump voter I often disagree with Jim on politics, but that is it. Jim has strike me as pro free speech and reasonable guy in his private life. Point is I trust Grim Jim.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1075115Itch? What's that (hard to google)? And is it free-speech?
I believe they're referring to https://itch.io/
Not familiar with it, myself.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1074799Maybe ask James Desbrough for help. GRIM Jim did open his store and he is pro free speech.
It looks like this is Jim's store? https://post-mort.com/ (https://post-mort.com/)
Lots of Gor RPG stuff, so it's got that going for it. No real search mechanism and it appears targeted at a UK/European audience -- no pricing in anything but GBP. It doesn't appear to have its own print option--all print links seem to go to other places like Lulu or The Gamecrafter. (The bit about pricing and targeting and whatnot is an issue, since a lot of US credit cards will automatically go to "fraud" status if you try to use them on a UK/EU website.)
The Gamecrafter https://www.thegamecrafter.com (https://www.thegamecrafter.com) is an interesting beastie. Lots of search options, but all around generic mechanics and options, rather than "systems" like D00 Lite, or 2d6 SciFi.
Quote from: Pat;1075030Joseph Browning of XRP set up Your Games Now in 2007 as a publisher-friendly general RPG PDF retailer, in response to RPGNow and DriveThruRPG merging into OneBookshelf.
They didn't come, and it shut down in 2014.
So because one person failed. I guess we just shut it down, boys and girls. OBS won. Dang. I guess we tried.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1075114Yeah, when he announced it in the last Inappropriate Characters I thought "well, that's not going to go anywhere", but in retrospect he may just benefit from fantastically lucky timing.
The problem is still whether he can actually deliver on it. Can he do large volumes? PDF AND PoD?
If he really makes a go at it, it might be good for everyone.
THIS is the way.
What we're doing in this very thread is the same thing the people in Comics are doing now. Yeah there's bumps in the road, lots to figure out. But it will happen as long as we keep focused on figuring out what is in everyone's best interests. Speaking of which, there are lurkers on this forum with technical skills looking to help. Do you mind if I send them your way Pundit? If only to spitball (but they're serious about "doing something") - even if you're wanting to refer them to Grim or something...
I firmly believe the market is there for an alternative - it's been talked about for a while. It just has to be served properly.
As a sidenote: I loathe the OBS 'interface'. Especially on the backend.
Quote from: tenbones;1075164So because one person failed. I guess we just shut it down, boys and girls. OBS won. Dang. I guess we tried.
No, but it could serve as a valuable lesson for what not to do, and it shows how much of a stranglehold OBS has on the market. Word of mouth when YGN closed suggested that the number of sales there compared to OBS wasn't just bad, it was dismal. The big advantage of OBS from a consumer perspective is it gives people one place to keep/download all their PDFs. Those kind of network externalities means there's a lot of inertia to overcome. YGN was heavily focused on being friendly to publishers, which is probably the wrong place to start. Above all, a new RPG document platform needs to figure out how to break that stranglehold and attract customers. Being focused on free speech probably isn't the entire solution in itself, but at least it is the kind of stand certain customers might fight appealing. As opposed to the publishing co-op concept of YGN, which wasn't a real selling point one way or the other for customers.
And stop being a passive aggressive dick.
Quote from: Pat;1075179No, but it could serve as a valuable lesson for what not to do, and it shows how much of a stranglehold OBS has on the market. Word of mouth when YGN closed suggested that the number of sales there compared to OBS wasn't just bad, it was dismal. The big advantage of OBS from a consumer perspective is it gives people one place to keep/download all their PDFs. Those kind of network externalities means there's a lot of inertia to overcome. YGN was heavily focused on being friendly to publishers, which is probably the wrong place to start. Above all, a new RPG document platform needs to figure out how to break that stranglehold and attract customers. Being focused on free speech probably isn't the entire solution in itself, but at least it is the kind of stand certain customers might fight appealing. As opposed to the publishing co-op concept of YGN, which wasn't a real selling point one way or the other for customers.
And stop being a passive aggressive dick.
Context is king. If you had posted that
wonderful bit in your original reply it wouldn't have come out that way from me. It's a very good point. Knowing what's failed before you and why is invaluable. The reality is *someone* is going to have run this and make it happen. Egos will have to step back from it. (see ComicsGate and their struggles doing this too)
This isn't exactly a mild-mannered topic if you look around. Heh. No hard feelings?
Quote from: tenbones;1075195No hard feelings?
It's the RPGSite, being a dick is part of of saying hello. I tend call it out because I prefer conversations to escalating adversarialness, but it would take a hell of lot more before I even started to be slightly annoyed. If you can't shed insults like a duck sheds water, you don't belong here.
Quote from: belabor;1075109Ok then, quick question. Would you let Zak S sell his games there? Note I'm not asking whether you approve of Zak S or his actions, just whether you would be ready to continue selling his games when blue-haired mob with pitchforks appears. Or, for instance, should Adler decide to remove Monsterhearts due to you letting Zak S sell his games next to theirs. Would you continue selling a controversial creator's work despite possible backlash, perhaps from other authors you carry?
You know if the non-binary/queer elements were not so front and center Monsterhearts and Adler would be high on the Outrage Brigade's purge list.
Quote from: Pat;1075198It's the RPGSite, being a dick is part of of saying hello. I tend call it out because I prefer conversations to escalating adversarialness, but it would take a hell of lot more before I even started to be slightly annoyed. If you can't shed insults like a duck sheds water, you don't belong here.
Bingo-is-your-name-o!
/fistbump
Quote from: Haffrung;1074796Of course they're not. Even bringing that up - following a rational chain of thought to first principles - will instantly trigger the tribal war horns of the SJWs. The know they can't defend the hysteria at the heart of the dogma rationally, so they don't even try.
And like the whole movement, this is almost entirely a online thing.
You wish. This has been spreading to other media, mostly entertainment ones, more and more. And probably to other services as well.
SJWs took over a chunk of Marvel and ran it into the dirt, IDW has been going downhill for a good while now. They have a foothold in some cartoon networks. Like Cartoon Network. Theres been slow encroachment into board gaming. And so on. And that is just in the entertainment biz.
No. This stuff is not just isolated to the net anymore.
Quote from: Omega;1075205You wish. This has been spreading to other media, mostly entertainment ones, more and more. And probably to other services as well.
SJWs took over a chunk of Marvel and ran it into the dirt, IDW has been going downhill for a good while now. They have a foothold in some cartoon networks. Like Cartoon Network. Theres been slow encroachment into board gaming. And so on. And that is just in the entertainment biz.
No. This stuff is not just isolated to the net anymore.
It is infecting our banking system too and that does the most harm.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1075173As a sidenote: I loathe the OBS 'interface'. Especially on the backend.
So OBS isn't good for anal, eh? Good to know.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1075211It is infecting our banking system too and that does the most harm.
When your *bank* unpersons you for wrongthink, you know you're in trouble.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1075218So OBS isn't good for anal, eh? Good to know.
Don't be crass.
Quote from: GagarthYou know if the non-binary/queer elements were not so front and center Monsterhearts and Adler would be high on the Outrage Brigade's purge list.
Why? I've been occasionally following Adler/McDonaldo's posts on various sites since she was still a boy, and even then he was pretty messed up (about as much as this sentence is). Seems like a poster child of the movement. What did I miss?
Nevertheless no statement from Thondor, so I would be careful with Compose Dream as a censorship avoiding creator.
Quote from: S'mon;1075231When your *bank* unpersons you for wrongthink, you know you're in trouble.
Yeah I hope it doesn't get worst cause this will lead to increase crime and eventually civil war.
Quote from: belabor;1075258Why? I've been occasionally following Adler/McDonaldo's posts on various sites since she was still a boy, and even then he was pretty messed up (about as much as this sentence is). Seems like a poster child of the movement. What did I miss?
The content of the game. Imagine if someone marketed a game where the pcs are straight high school kids using Sex Moves to trick other high school kids into having sex with them and since they are also monsters they can murder or eat the victim afterwards. On top of that players cannot refuse to have this done to their character if it is from the opposite sex. How long would it take the Outrage Brigade to organise a mob to get it removed from OBS.
Quote from: GagarthThe content of the game. Imagine if someone marketed a game where the pcs are straight high school kids using Sex Moves to trick other high school kids into having sex with them and since they are also monsters they can murder or eat the victim afterwards. On top of that players cannot refuse to have this done to their character if it is from the opposite sex. How long would it take the Outrage Brigade to organise a mob to get it removed from OBS.
It's a bit like saying MYFAROG would be Outrage Brigade's favorite game, if only Varg murdered some Nazi's instead, and the game was about diverse and inclusive gender-fluid warriors raiding white nations for social justice.
But I think we're veering off topic too much.
Quote from: Gagarth;1075315The content of the game. Imagine if someone marketed a game where the pcs are straight high school kids using Sex Moves to trick other high school kids into having sex with them and since they are also monsters they can murder or eat the victim afterwards. On top of that players cannot refuse to have this done to their character if it is from the opposite sex. How long would it take the Outrage Brigade to organise a mob to get it removed from OBS.
Is someone trying to revive Alma Mater again? https://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/45812/alma-mater-high-school-role-playing-game
This week has certainly made me want to move any content I've previously purchased onto platforms safe from the witch-finders.
Quote from: mightybrain;1075353This week has certainly made me want to move any content I've previously purchased onto platforms safe from the witch-finders.
You can't move it. I don't know of a single service that allows you to transfer a digital license to an RPG book to another platforms, you have to buy it again. A few like Bundle of Holding occasionally give you links to another site (OBS in that case), but they're always one-offs.
But that's actually an interesting concept. Ultraviolet is dying in the digital movie realm, but Movies Anywhere still exists and serves a similar purpose. The basic idea is you buy/redeem and a movie, and that purchase is recognized and mirrored across multiple platforms. Which means you can buy a movie once, and stream it on Fandango, Vudu, or using iTunes. I don't know how you'd implement that in the RPG world, but it's a nice idea. Cut the chains that tie a purchase to a specific platform.
Quote from: Gagarth;1075315The content of the game. Imagine if someone marketed a game where the pcs are straight high school kids using Sex Moves to trick other high school kids into having sex with them and since they are also monsters they can murder or eat the victim afterwards. On top of that players cannot refuse to have this done to their character if it is from the opposite sex. How long would it take the Outrage Brigade to organise a mob to get it removed from OBS.
I agree that the game has content that the OB would try to run out of town if not for the queer content(both in the game and the author's personal life), but . . . that's not how Sex Moves work. Not in Monsterhearts, and not in Apocalypse World, where they originated. Why do people keep spreading this misinformation? There's plenty of stuff weird about Monsterhearts(and Apocalypse World) that there's no need to make stuff up.
Quote from: S'mon;1075231When your *bank* unpersons you for wrongthink, you know you're in trouble.
No, you know all of Western Civilization is in trouble.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1075419I agree that the game has content that the OB would try to run out of town if not for the queer content(both in the game and the author's personal life), but . . . that's not how Sex Moves work. Not in Monsterhearts, and not in Apocalypse World, where they originated. Why do people keep spreading this misinformation? There's plenty of stuff weird about Monsterhearts(and Apocalypse World) that there's no need to make stuff up.
I was thinking along much the same lines as Gagarth, but refrained from posting those thoughts because I've never actually read MH (or AW) myself. Plus he beat me to it. In any case, had I posted, I would have spread that misinformation because... I've been misinformed! So what's the truth of how they work, for those of us who will never read those rules first-hand? (PBTA is really,
really not my thing, so I'm not going to pick up MH/AW just to read about Sex Moves.)
Quote from: Gagarth;1075315The content of the game. Imagine if someone marketed a game where the pcs are straight high school kids using Sex Moves to trick other high school kids into having sex with them and since they are also monsters they can murder or eat the victim afterwards. On top of that players cannot refuse to have this done to their character if it is from the opposite sex. How long would it take the Outrage Brigade to organise a mob to get it removed from OBS.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1075419I agree that the game has content that the OB would try to run out of town if not for the queer content(both in the game and the author's personal life), but . . . that's not how Sex Moves work. Not in Monsterhearts, and not in Apocalypse World, where they originated. Why do people keep spreading this misinformation? There's plenty of stuff weird about Monsterhearts(and Apocalypse World) that there's no need to make stuff up.
Quote from: nDervish;1075464... So what's the truth of how they work, for those of us who will never read those rules first-hand? (PBTA is really, really not my thing, so I'm not going to pick up MH/AW just to read about Sex Moves.)
It doesn't really matter.
The author is one of "Them". They're in the Club.
I'm sure geek Eclectic can set the official record straight. But whatever the rules are it literally doesn't matter to the author as one of the cool kids.
I don't think it's a matter of content really. The Outrage Brigade labels specific content as improper when it suits them, with no consistency. I'm pretty sure if one infiltrated them deeply enough and made enough personal connections with key activists, one could publish their game with quite "alt-right" content and they wouldn't even blink. That infiltration would probably require costly hormonal treatment and a lot of hair dye, but still...
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1075419I agree that the game has content that the OB would try to run out of town if not for the queer content(both in the game and the author's personal life), but . . . that's not how Sex Moves work. Not in Monsterhearts, and not in Apocalypse World, where they originated. Why do people keep spreading this misinformation? There's plenty of stuff weird about Monsterhearts(and Apocalypse World) that there's no need to make stuff up.
Bollocks the Outrage Brigade and the author of the game are the same sort who would call rape if a man had sex with a woman after telling her he was lawyer when in fact he was a binman and they would class the use of a technique to turn someone on as rape.
Here is some more food for thought if the following statement was in a set of rules how long would it last before OBS pulled it.
QuoteWhen you make a move to turn someone on (with a character action or with scene description), the other player doesn't get to exclaim, "Wait, my character is gay! There's no way that'd turn them on."
Quote from: EOTB;1075349Is someone trying to revive Alma Mater again? https://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/45812/alma-mater-high-school-role-playing-game
A very very very woke story game version of Alma Mater but the characters are monsters as well. Bloody hell if anyone tried to release that through OBS there would be riots. The Example of Play alone would have the Outrage Brigade hunting down the authors.
Quote from: nDervish;1075464So what's the truth of how they work, for those of us who will never read those rules first-hand?
They don't cause sex to happen(willingly, through deceit, or by force); rather, they're an effect that's
triggered by the act of sex taking place. The intent is to show how getting that close to someone in such circumstances makes everyone's lives messier. I don't think they always succeed(for example, Chosen heal all damage after having sex, turning it into basically a weird alternative to a health potion, wtf . . .), but that's the intent.
Quote from: Jaeger;1075466The author is one of "Them". They're in the Club.
True enough.
Quote from: Gagarth;1075471Bollocks the Outrage Brigade and the author of the game are the same sort who would call rape if a man had sex with a woman after telling her he was lawyer when in fact he was a binman and they would class the use of a technique to turn someone on as rape.
Here is some more food for thought if the following statement was in a set of rules how long would it last before OBS pulled it.
I can't speak to Alder personally, but that wouldn't surprise me. As for the Turn On move, it doesn't force anyone to have sex. I remember reading some of the author's notes, and it's meant to mimic IRL where you don't get to choose your sexuality. But you
do get to choose how you(or in this case, your character) responds to it. I do agree that making it a player-initiated Move makes it a bit weird(well, weirder than the game already is). I haven't heard anything about Alder in years(since around the time of the name change), but last I heard s/he was in a relationship, which would make me think they're not opposed to being turned on, per se.
Can we focus on the topic instead of some shitty slut monster rules?
Quote from: belabor;1075109Ok then, quick question. Would you let Zak S sell his games there? Note I'm not asking whether you approve of Zak S or his actions, just whether you would be ready to continue selling his games when blue-haired mob with pitchforks appears. Or, for instance, should Adler decide to remove Monsterhearts due to you letting Zak S sell his games next to theirs. Would you continue selling a controversial creator's work despite possible backlash, perhaps from other authors you carry?
The only reason I foresee ever removing a game is for either a) legal reasons or b) the publisher/creator of that game asks me too.
If anyone with an RPG game or two wants to sell their games in the CDG Marketplace, they are more than welcome. Including Zak S.
Personal feelings about a creator's life or statements they make is irrelevant. Personal feelings about content is irrelevant. Is it a game? Does the publisher/designer want it sold here? Those are the questions that matter.
An open, uncensored marketplace that actually tolerates "opposing" ideas/themes is the ideal.
Quote from: S'mon;1075231When your *bank* unpersons you for wrongthink, you know you're in trouble.
Whut? Banks have been doing this since day one. The real question is, which banks do you bank with? Banks that unperson you for not thinking the way they want you to, or unbanking, where banks drop you for not supporting their existing political agendas. The one thing I do like about a cash economy is with American currency. There is this note on my money. It says
"This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private." The problem with banks, private lenders, private treasuries, and cryptocurrencies is that they are tied to the Standard American banking economy and utilize the dollar almost exclusively as their chief financial trading instrument.
I wouldn't put all of my financial investments and instruments exclusively into the Federal Reserve banking system... just say'in.
Quote from: Thondor;1075542If anyone with an RPG game or two wants to sell their games in the CDG Marketplace, they are more than welcome. Including Zak S.
Personal feelings about a creator's life or statements they make is irrelevant. Personal feelings about content is irrelevant. Is it a game? Does the publisher/designer want it sold here? Those are the questions that matter.
I respectfully disagree. I'm not interested in giving my money to anyone who adversely impacts the general public perception of our hobby, no matter how good their game design skills and talents are. Now I have a whole new job of running around to the parents of teenages these days and explaining to them, no, Zak S. and the other little S&%^LoR#@ are not really representatives of our hobby and interests, although they believe themselves to be., They certainly stepped in to derive an income from our fun and games, but brought calamity and woe for all of us, in return. That is not talent.
I have a website where anyone can sell gaming stuff if they like, but I wouldn't allow Zak, or anyone else for that matter, that wants to S&^# where they sleep, and pollute our gaming fun with their insensible social values, to sell games on my site.
The trick there is where do you draw the line?
The principled stance I outlined above is the only one that doesn't bring personal opinion to the forefront.
There are some pretty far left ideological games that I wouldn't particularly want to sell on the marketplace. Similarly, I wouldn't be excited to draw controversy by selling Zak's games. I find all this controversial nonsense in our hobby tiring, and mostly try to ignore it.
We should be talking about games and game designs, not ideology and horrible things creators may have done.
These things usually settle themselves out. The Satanic Panic in the 80s didn't kill gaming or Metal. Tipper Gore and her "think of the children" brigade didn't kill video games. Roman Polansky still has a career.
At the end of the day Drivethru is in it to make money, if they start kicking off every product that offends someone, they won't have anything left to sell. Eventually the bean counters will slap some sense into them. On the plus side, maybe this is the opening needed to get a competitors foot in the door. Vote with your wallet, if you don't approve buy the products from another vendor you approve of (or at least disapprove less of).
Quote from: Toadmaster;1075595These things usually settle themselves out. The Satanic Panic in the 80s didn't kill gaming or Metal. Tipper Gore and her "think of the children" brigade didn't kill video games. Roman Polansky still has a career.
At the end of the day Drivethru is in it to make money, if they start kicking off every product that offends someone, they won't have anything left to sell. Eventually the bean counters will slap some sense into them. On the plus side, maybe this is the opening needed to get a competitors foot in the door. Vote with your wallet, if you don't approve buy the products from another vendor you approve of (or at least disapprove less of).
That's not how it works. If you ban enough products to have a measurable effect on your bottom line, you're probably living in a totalitarian state already. Bans have a disproportionately chilling effect through gatekeepers and self-censorship, long before they have any financial impact worth noticing.
Even your examples show that. The Satanic Panic, despite being scare-mongering nonsense that probably didn't have a significant impact on anyone's finances, caused TSR to erase the words "demon" and "devil" from 2nd edition. Fear and the threat of litigating aren't boycotts, they're silencing techniques used to institute
de facto bans.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1075481They don't cause sex to happen(willingly, through deceit, or by force); rather, they're an effect that's triggered by the act of sex taking place. .
More Bollocks.
Here is a Ghoul Move.
Ending:- You remember every detail of your death. When you tell someone about it, give them the Condition morbid and roll to Turn Them On with Cold.
Turn Someone On:-
When you turn someone on, roll with Hot. On a 10 up, gain a String on them and they choose a reaction from below. • On a 7-9, they can either give you a String or choose one of the reactions.
I give myself to you,
I promise something I think you want, or
I get embarrassed and act awkward.
It is irrelevant whether or not you get to choose (do npcs really get to choose?) the specifics you still got there through manipulation.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1075488Can we focus on the topic instead of some shitty slut monster rules?
It is on topic because it illustrates the bias nature of the outrage and how OBS is buying into it.
lulu would be a good alternative if only they offered package deals of print books with a free PDF. I think it's been a requested feature for years. Why they don't do it I have no clue. Until then, DTRPG has the upper hand because they do offer that option.
Quote from: Thondor;1075554There are some pretty far left ideological games that I wouldn't particularly want to sell on the marketplace. Similarly, I wouldn't be excited to draw controversy by selling Zak's games. I find all this controversial nonsense in our hobby tiring, and mostly try to ignore it.
Ok, but just to be sure "not excited" in this case doesn't mean "wouldn't sell/would remove on public demand"?
Because previous statement is Thondor 1 : GameDaddy 0
Fuck drawing lines. The hobby goes where it goes, if it's destined to go into obscurity just because some dudes offended some dudes I'll gladly go there with it.
And out of curiosity how much is actually still legal in Canada? I know there was some legal kerfuffle over gendered pronouns. But would you still consider games like MYFAROG, FATAL or Venger's stuff legal enough by your country's standards?
Where I live for instance you can be fined for swearing in public, and promoting totalitarian ideologies (communism or nazism) is a criminal offence, so not exactly rpgsite's ideal of free speech I presume. But you can still legally sell and buy Mein Kampf if you want.
Here is the thing to keep in mind.
Attempts to topple an established venue are usually doomed to failure as the venue IS established.
But...
What usually happens when an upstart venue replaces one is that the established venue had some sort of major fuck up, possibly several, that turned customers away and they ended up on the upstart. Which usually provides a haven.
The established venue may limp along on the energy of its more die-hard fans. Who may be part of the reason why the venue is limping by the way. But rarely does it make a comeback after that.
So far DTRPG has not screwed up enough. And like YahooGroups and BGG, tends to act covertly. It is hard to get riled up about censorship if you dont know just how much is going on. Or that it is going on at all! Eventually they will drive off someone they really should not have and the house of cards will start to collapse. But only if someone has an alternative in place to catch the exodus.
so what is needed is more of a net to catch the exodus. Something that is well set up, reliable, secure, and is garnering good word of mouth. THAT takes alot of skill to code and lay down and it will take money that may or may not ever be recouped.
Quote from: Gagarth;1075641More Bollocks.
Here is a Ghoul Move.
Ending:- You remember every detail of your death. When you tell someone about it, give them the Condition morbid and roll to Turn Them On with Cold.
Turn Someone On:-
When you turn someone on, roll with Hot. On a 10 up, gain a String on them and they choose a reaction from below. On a 7-9, they can either give you a String or choose one of the reactions.
I give myself to you,
I promise something I think you want, or
I get embarrassed and act awkward.
It is irrelevant whether or not you get to choose (do npcs really get to choose?) the specifics you still got there through manipulation.
If it's an NPC, then it's GM's choice how the NPC responds. Just as it would be the player's choice how they respond if their PC is the target. And . . . what manipulation? I mean, you can probably frame it as manipulation of a sort if you're creative since the Moves are somewhat broad/flexible like that, but a cursory reading of the above doesn't make that the default. And again, even if outright manipulation is involved, it's still the target's choice how they respond.
(slight edit to the quoted portion to remove certain characters because the forum software wouldn't let me post with them . . . even though someone else obviously already had; yay, technology)
I'm wondering if a RPG gateway site into Amazon (that makes cash off the referral bonus) would be viable.
AKA, take advantage of Amazon's size and strength and leverage that.
I agree with RPGPundit that Amazon is currently good for buying, but not finding RPGs. Thus, I wonder HOW the "finding" part could become a business model.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1075826Thus, I wonder HOW the "finding" part could become a business model.
Apart from the occasional sales landing page, Amazon isn't really a site that's built on browsing, but on searching. However, there is a certain strength in optimising the
related products for other RPGs. If you have a healthy product palette, it's not too hard.
[video=youtube_share;CAYRIkioE_k]https://youtu.be/CAYRIkioE_k[/youtube]
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1075811If it's an NPC, then it's GM's choice how the NPC responds. Just as it would be the player's choice how they respond if their PC is the target. And . . . what manipulation? I mean, you can probably frame it as manipulation of a sort if you're creative since the Moves are somewhat broad/flexible like that, but a cursory reading of the above doesn't make that the default. And again, even if outright manipulation is involved, it's still the target's choice how they respond.
(slight edit to the quoted portion to remove certain characters because the forum software wouldn't let me post with them . . . even though someone else obviously already had; yay, technology)
What better example of manipulation is the use of supernatural power or are you too blinded by your wokeness to see this. The use of a supernatural power is manipulation. So called pickup artists get vilified and banned and they are not using supernatural powers.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1075595These things usually settle themselves out. The Satanic Panic in the 80s didn't kill gaming or Metal. Tipper Gore and her "think of the children" brigade didn't kill video games. Roman Polansky still has a career.
At the end of the day Drivethru is in it to make money, if they start kicking off every product that offends someone, they won't have anything left to sell. Eventually the bean counters will slap some sense into them. On the plus side, maybe this is the opening needed to get a competitors foot in the door. Vote with your wallet, if you don't approve buy the products from another vendor you approve of (or at least disapprove less of).
Unfortunately I've seen how these SJW types and those influenced by them can and will totally hose themselves, even out of business, just to make a "statement".
And as noted in some other threads way back in the 90s we had one of those prude patrol/Moral outrage type groups go after artists and then the major convention for the fandom. Eventually actually taking it over. In a mere two years it was DOA as people went elsewhere. And recently we have seen major movie company directors or producers willing to slit their own movies throats and lose hundreds of millions just to make a "statement".
So the possibility of OBS somehow killing themselves off is not an impossible thing. Unlikely, so far, but not impossible.
Quote from: Gagarth;1075834What better example of manipulation is the use of supernatural power. . .
In this case, the Move(not necessarily a power, though you can describe it that way) just lets you make a Turn On attempt in an unusual situation using a different core stat. And again, even a 10+ success doesn't guarantee any action. Target's choice, always.
Quote. . . or are you too blinded by your wokeness to see this.
You're literally the first person to every accuse me of being woke. Not even kidding. Being a borderline anarchist libertarian free speech and gun rights advocate and fairly conservative Christian doesn't really win you brownie points with that crowd, you know.
QuoteThe use of a supernatural power is manipulation. So called pickup artists get vilified and banned and they are not using supernatural powers.
Eh . . . I think you're stretching things here. Abilities that affect one's ability to seduce, including outright mind control(I'm surprised you didn't latch onto the Vampire playbook's Hypnosis move), are hardly unique to Monsterhearts. The games they're in just aren't specifically about people dealing with messy relationship shit, so the implications aren't as obvious, and it's kind of taken for granted that players won't go there(though creepy gamer stories abound for a reason). But the supernaturally seductive Bard is a pretty old trope for a reason, y'know. And yeah . . . that they don't remove the game due to the content you mentioned is a bit hypocritical given what they've removed in the past. No argument there.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1075546I respectfully disagree. I'm not interested in giving my money to anyone who adversely impacts the general public perception of our hobby, no matter how good their game design skills and talents are. Now I have a whole new job of running around to the parents of teenages these days and explaining to them, no, Zak S. and the other little S&%^LoR#@ are not really representatives of our hobby and interests, although they believe themselves to be., They certainly stepped in to derive an income from our fun and games, but brought calamity and woe for all of us, in return. That is not talent.
I have a website where anyone can sell gaming stuff if they like, but I wouldn't allow Zak, or anyone else for that matter, that wants to S&^# where they sleep, and pollute our gaming fun with their insensible social values, to sell games on my site.
There's another interpretation possible and it's one that is possibly less flattering:
I am not personally involved with Zak Smith or any of his liaisons. What he does in his private life is none of business and none of my concern. Internet lynch mobs, however, are a potential personal concern of mine. I recognize that being part of a lynch mob has always felt and will always feel good. It makes you feel strong and righteous. Now, it's possible that people join such lynch mobs -although they have no personal involvement to the people concerned either, just as I don't- nonetheless . And it's possible that they join that lynch mob just because they want to feel strong and righteous.
AND it's possible that they do that under the thinly veiled rationale of wanting to "protect the reputation of the hobby." Because it makes them look like a kind and benign human being and not like someone with a somewhat questionable attitude. And after all, you would never expect a member of a lynch mob to admit that he does it just for the aforementioned reasons. No, you need an air of legitimacy after all.
Personally, I feel no calamity and woe arising from Mr. Smith for me. But I do feel potential calamity and woe coming from internet lynch mobs, people that seek to fabricate reasons to set themselves up as more righteous than me - falsely so.;)
A
modern-day, secular version of holier-than-thou, if you will.
Furthermore, if(!) this interpretation of reality was true, then there is currently(!) no apparent risk involved for people joining such internet lynch mobs. That would be lamentable state of affairs, begging for change, as I'm sure you'd be inclined to agree.
Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1076000There's another interpretation possible and it's one that is possibly less flattering:
I am not personally involved with Zak Smith or any of his liaisons. What he does in his private life is none of business and none of my concern. Internet lynch mobs, however, are a potential personal concern of mine. I recognize that being part of a lynch mob has always felt and will always feel good. It makes you feel strong and righteous. Now, it's possible that people join such lynch mobs -although they have no personal involvement to the people concerned either, just as I don't- nonetheless . And it's possible that they join that lynch mob just because they want to feel strong and righteous.
AND it's possible that they do that under the thinly veiled rationale of wanting to "protect the reputation of the hobby." Because it makes them look like a kind and benign human being and not like someone with a somewhat questionable attitude. And after all, you would never expect a member of a lynch mob to admit that he does it just for the aforementioned reasons. No, you need an air of legitimacy after all.
Personally, I feel no calamity and woe arising from Mr. Smith for me. But I do feel potential calamity and woe coming from internet lynch mobs, people that seek to fabricate reasons to set themselves up as more righteous than me - falsely so.;)
A modern-day, secular version of holier-than-thou, if you will.
Furthermore, if(!) this interpretation of reality was true, then there is currently(!) no apparent risk involved for people joining such internet lynch mobs. That would be lamentable state of affairs, begging for change, as I'm sure you'd be inclined to agree.
Awesome post. The lynch mobs to (professionally) murder/unperson people based on unproven accusations are pretty disgusting.
Quote from: Tod13;1076007Awesome post. The lynch mobs to (professionally) murder/unperson people based on unproven accusations are pretty disgusting.
It's more disgusting that they are having any effects on the hobby at large.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1075957And yeah . . . that they don't remove the game due to the content you mentioned is a bit hypocritical given what they've removed in the past. No argument there.
That is my point exactly I am arguing against the hypocrisy and double of standards of the Outrage Brigade not that a game with powers or abilities that can be manipulative powers should be banned. Just because a games have this sort of thing and a player uses them in game does not mean that they anyone is advocating this IRL nor more so than any one playing an on screen Nazi is advocating National Socialism.
Quote from: belabor;1076009It's more disgusting that they are having any effects on the hobby at large.
What effects would these be? The ones creating the negative effect are the lynch mobs.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1075546. Now I have a whole new job of running around to the parents of teenage these days and explaining to them, no, Zak S. and the other little S&%^LoR#@ are not really representatives of our hobby and interests, although they believe themselves to be.,
How would these parents even about this? I doubt 99% of parents would even know what an RPG was? Wait... I get it you tell them. I see, you are making a fast buck out of this whole situation. You really are a piece of shit along with rest the Outrage Brigade. The Outrage Brigade is pulling the same stunt profiting from this whole shitty situation. The vast majority of the gaming world know nothing beyond D&D 5e and would never have be in a position to be aware of Zak S products never mind be influenced to the point that they become slavery rapists stalking rpg cons looking for victims after reading Vornheim.
Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1076000) A modern-day, secular version of holier-than-thou, if you will.
Bingo! AK wins the thread.
Quote from: Gagarth;1076161What effects would these be? The ones creating the negative effect are the lynch mobs.
Effects like deplatforming creators based on unproven allegations and hearsay for instance.
Quote from: belabor;1075747Ok, but just to be sure "not excited" in this case doesn't mean "wouldn't sell/would remove on public demand"?
Because previous statement is Thondor 1 : GameDaddy 0
Fuck drawing lines. The hobby goes where it goes, if it's destined to go into obscurity just because some dudes offended some dudes I'll gladly go there with it.
And out of curiosity how much is actually still legal in Canada? I know there was some legal kerfuffle over gendered pronouns. But would you still consider games like MYFAROG, FATAL or Venger's stuff legal enough by your country's standards?
Where I live for instance you can be fined for swearing in public, and promoting totalitarian ideologies (communism or nazism) is a criminal offence, so not exactly rpgsite's ideal of free speech I presume. But you can still legally sell and buy Mein Kampf if you want.
I would not remove a product unless requested by the product creator/publisher, or provided with some legal documentation that specifically requires a particular product to be removed. (Most likely due to an expired license or an dispute over ownership.)
A product that could be construed as pornographic would not be sold, as I have no plan on adding age verification which is a legal requirement in Canada. If determined to be such after it was put up for sale, it would need to be removed for legal reasons.
I am not aware of any "banned" creative content in Canada. I have heard of but not looked at the games you listed, (I think I've read a blog post or two by Venger), but am not aware of any reason that these games would not be sold if their owners wished to have them on the CDG Marketplace.
The bill C-16 kerfuffle re gender pronouns is is worrisome, but there is debate about what it actually means, and no one (as far as I am aware) has been prosecuted for anything in relation to the bill. A bad precedent, a lot of smoke, and some real effects on peoples lives, but no legal action (lawsuits about defamation notwithstanding). The important point here is I see no reason it would have any impact on selling of RPGs.
Quote from: Thondor;1076283A product that could be construed as pornographic would not be sold, as I have no plan on adding age verification which is a legal requirement in Canada. If determined to be such after it was put up for sale, it would need to be removed for legal reasons.
Interesting. But that is limited to graphic pornography, right? Taking into account you do sell games with sex moves and such. So even a game like FATAL or some such should still be within limits?
I am not really up to speed, but are there some rpg's that were banned from drivethrurpg/rpgnow?
Quote from: Gagarth;1076160That is my point exactly I am arguing against the hypocrisy and double of standards of the Outrage Brigade not that a game with powers or abilities that can be manipulative powers should be banned. Just because a games have this sort of thing and a player uses them in game does not mean that they anyone is advocating this IRL nor more so than any one playing an on screen Nazi is advocating National Socialism.
This has been a problem for a long long long time. There will allways be people who for some totally insane reason simply can not separate fiction from reality. They will totally believe that if you make a game about killing sheep for example that means you either want to or ARE killing sheep for real. And that anyone playing your game either wants to kill sheep, or will be "corrupted" to kill sheep, for real.
Replace sheep with about anything someone disapproves of or just does not like, or thinks is a bad thing.
What is even more pathetic is that 99.99% of the time these fruitcakes totally ignore instances where someone IS trying to insert a corrupting influence into a media.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;1076321I am not really up to speed, but are there some rpg's that were banned from drivethrurpg/rpgnow?
Not banned, but they are refusing to sell content by a particular author due to pressure from an online mob:
https://oneblogshelf.blogspot.com/2019/02/drivethrurpg-responds-to-current.html
In Canada (apart from some pornography) they don't typically ban creative content. But if your creative content is politically incorrect, they'll put you before a Kangaroo-Court "Human Rights Tribunal", bankrupt you in a context where you have virtually no way to defend yourself (because you are accused of the "crime" of offending someone, and the only proof needed is that they are offended), and imprisoned if you cannot pay the fine.
Next is they send you to the Gulag.
Greetings!
Are all of the people up there in Canada mindless sheep? Why do they keep voting for the same kind of Socialist tyrants over and over? Aren't there any Canadians that want to stand against the syrupy tyranny taking over their country?
It's so sad. Canadians just bow down on their knees, whining, "Yes, please shackle me with more chains!"
The more Canadians shriek about how "enlightened" they are, the more they become slaves to their socialist state. Social freedom, religious freedom, freedom of speech, freedom to arm themselves--these are just what I know about have been stripped and restricted from the Canadians. I hope they can wake up and take their freedom back from the tyrants ruling over them.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: RPGPundit;1076487In Canada (apart from some pornography) they don't typically ban creative content. But if your creative content is politically incorrect, they'll put you before a Kangaroo-Court "Human Rights Tribunal", bankrupt you in a context where you have virtually no way to defend yourself (because you are accused of the "crime" of offending someone, and the only proof needed is that they are offended), and imprisoned if you cannot pay the fine.
Ok then. Anybody knows any rpg stores based in Russia (or some such) that would cater to international clients?
Because I guess options are dwindling in Anglosphere.
I seem to have broken my own rules and driven this topic away from RPGs. Let's bring it back on topic, please.
Here's the problem as I see it:
1> Assuming a competitor platform to DTRPG is established that is pro-freedom of speech, and will not bow to pressure to deplatform creators/sellers, is there:
2> A service host that won't bow to pressure to deplatform the competitor? DTRPG is hosted by AWS, and we've seen where AWS, Azure and other hosts have threatened to boot customers because someone doesn't like what someone said.
3> How about a payment processor that won't do the same? We've seen processors (Square, Stripe, PayPal, etc.) boot customers.
4> How about a payment network that won't do the same? We've seen Mastercard boot customers.
It honestly seems like there needs to be a larger legal challenge at each one of these levels to force a politically-neutral outcome. This far transcends the level of a small business refusing to provide a particular service - in this day and age, these services (hosting, payment processors, payment networks banks, etc.) have risen to the level of a utility, and quite frankly, given their massive grasp/reach, shouldn't be allowed to bar entities from service because they disagree with them.
Given DTRPG's effective monopoly in the space they serve, they shouldn't be able to, either, but I doubt an RPG distributor carries the same weight as the other entities I've named.
Quote from: kythri;1077390Here's the problem as I see it:
1> Assuming a competitor platform to DTRPG is established that is pro-freedom of speech, and will not bow to pressure to deplatform creators/sellers, is there:
2> A service host that won't bow to pressure to deplatform the competitor? DTRPG is hosted by AWS, and we've seen where AWS, Azure and other hosts have threatened to boot customers because someone doesn't like what someone said.
3> How about a payment processor that won't do the same? We've seen processors (Square, Stripe, PayPal, etc.) boot customers.
4> How about a payment network that won't do the same? We've seen Mastercard boot customers.
It honestly seems like there needs to be a larger legal challenge at each one of these levels to force a politically-neutral outcome. This far transcends the level of a small business refusing to provide a particular service - in this day and age, these services (hosting, payment processors, payment networks banks, etc.) have risen to the level of a utility, and quite frankly, given their massive grasp/reach, shouldn't be allowed to bar entities from service because they disagree with them.
Given DTRPG's effective monopoly in the space they serve, they shouldn't be able to, either, but I doubt an RPG distributor carries the same weight as the other entities I've named.
Yes, this is pretty much the proven problem now, not just with RPGs (where this hasn't happened yet because a free-speech-defending competitor hasn't arisen), but in all kinds of areas (especially social media).
It's become such an endemic problem that it should certainly be defined within the aegis of racketeering. It needs some kind of government imposition to protect competitiveness.
Quote from: belabor;1075109Would you continue selling a controversial creator's work despite possible backlash, perhaps from other authors you carry?
Curiously this hasn't happened yet, perhaps because most publishers know that would be business suicide.
Quote from: tenbones;1075164So because one person failed. I guess we just shut it down, boys and girls. OBS won. Dang. I guess we tried.
It's not about how many failed, but why. And unless someone can provide service at least equal to #OBS right off the bat they'll fail too.
Quote from: Gagarth;1075201You know if the non-binary/queer elements were not so front and center Monsterhearts and Adler would be high on the Outrage Brigade's purge list.
Quote from: Jaeger;1075466The author is one of "Them". They're in the Club.
I'm sure geek Eclectic can set the official record straight. But whatever the rules are it literally doesn't matter to the author as one of the cool kids.
You two have apparently forgotten how people dropped her like a hot potato when she refused to drop the stretch goal written by her friend Mark who 'defended' Zak. For those counting that's two degrees of separation, and
both of them were in the cool kids club.
Quote from: S'mon;1075231When your *bank* unpersons you for wrongthink, you know you're in trouble.
Indeed.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1075275Yeah I hope it doesn't get worst cause this will lead to increase crime and eventually civil war.
Sadly I'm pretty sure it will.
Quote from: Gagarth;1075315using Sex Moves to trick other high school kids into having sex with them
But #Monsterhearts does not work like this...
Quote from: Gagarth;1075315players cannot refuse to have this done to their character
...nor like this.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1075419Why do people keep spreading this misinformation?
Because they have an agenda.
Quote from: belabor;1075470The Outrage Brigade labels specific content as improper when it suits them, with no consistency.
This.
Quote from: Gagarth;1075471Bollocks the Outrage Brigade and the author of the game are the same sort who would call rape if a man had sex with a woman after telling her he was lawyer when in fact he was a binman and they would class the use of a technique to turn someone on as rape.
No, they are not.
Quote from: belabor;1076845Anybody knows any rpg stores based in Russia (or some such) that would cater to international clients?
Russia is even worse when it comes to legislating morality, and far more aggressive in enforcing it.
Quote from: kythri;1077390Here's the problem as I see it:
1> Assuming a competitor platform to DTRPG is established that is pro-freedom of speech, and will not bow to pressure to deplatform creators/sellers, is there:
2> A service host that won't bow to pressure to deplatform the competitor? DTRPG is hosted by AWS, and we've seen where AWS, Azure and other hosts have threatened to boot customers because someone doesn't like what someone said.
3> How about a payment processor that won't do the same? We've seen processors (Square, Stripe, PayPal, etc.) boot customers.
4> How about a payment network that won't do the same? We've seen Mastercard boot customers.
It honestly seems like there needs to be a larger legal challenge at each one of these levels to force a politically-neutral outcome. This far transcends the level of a small business refusing to provide a particular service - in this day and age, these services (hosting, payment processors, payment networks banks, etc.) have risen to the level of a utility, and quite frankly, given their massive grasp/reach, shouldn't be allowed to bar entities from service because they disagree with them.
Given DTRPG's effective monopoly in the space they serve, they shouldn't be able to, either, but I doubt an RPG distributor carries the same weight as the other entities I've named.
#EndThread
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1078021But #Monsterhearts does not work like this...
Yes it does.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1078021...nor like this.
Yes it does.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1078021No, they are not.
Yes, they are.
Quote from: belabor;1076845Ok then. Anybody knows any rpg stores based in Russia (or some such) that would cater to international clients?
I would imagine transaction costs would become burdensome. International processing adds a layer of 'it can go wrong' when you are dealing with credit cards, for example.
I think this is all being overthought a bit. The biggest problem is that stores try to be a part of 'the community' and it is control over 'the community' which is the source of the problem.
So Gagarth claims that this is an accurate description of Monsterhearts,
Quote from: Gagarth;1075315Imagine if someone marketed a game where the pcs are straight high school kids using Sex Moves to trick other high school kids into having sex with them and since they are also monsters they can murder or eat the victim afterwards. On top of that players cannot refuse to have this done to their character if it is from the opposite sex.
I'm not a fan of Monsterhearts, but this is false. Sex Moves are defined as something that happens *after* you have sex with someone. The players have to already chosen to have sex in order to have the Sex Move triggered. It's not something that induces or tricks people into sex. There is no mechanic that restricts player choice about whether to have sex or not.
You can question the appropriateness of the sexual content here, but the description given is wrong.
Quote from: jhkim;1078249I'm not a fan of Monsterhearts, but this is false. Sex Moves are defined as something that happens *after* you have sex with someone. The players have to already chosen to have sex in order to have the Sex Move triggered. It's not something that induces or tricks people into sex. There is no mechanic that restricts player choice about whether to have sex or not.
You can question the appropriateness of the sexual content here, but the description given is wrong.
He knows that. There was a whole thing already in this thread starting in post #68. He's giving out wrong information on purpose now. Dunno the motive. And don't really care.
Quote from: jhkim;1078249So Gagarth claims that this is an accurate description of Monsterhearts,
I'm not a fan of Monsterhearts, but this is false. Sex Moves are defined as something that happens *after* you have sex with someone. The players have to already chosen to have sex in order to have the Sex Move triggered. It's not something that induces or tricks people into sex. There is no mechanic that restricts player choice about whether to have sex or not.
You can question the appropriateness of the sexual content here, but the description given is wrong.
You are wrong I have already given an example of a move which can lead to character into having sex. The sort of SJW puritans that you consistently defend are the same ones that claim that any thing that leads to sex which is the result of manipulation or has an ulterior motive is rape. Therefore this game depicts rape by their definition. e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47240670 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47240670). So the Outrage Mob and OBS hypocritical for not blacklisting this product.