Hello All.

My first post here. Looking for some feedback.

I really like the system in the Waste World RPG (long oop). However it uses hit points (called Lifeforce) and I would like to change to a damage save like that in True20 or perhaps wounds found in SilCore. But I need some help in doing this, since I am not really familiar with the exact mechanics. So I could use some assistance.

Here are the basics for Waste World:

All atrributes are modifiers to d20 rolls (STR + 2) and are combined with skill modifiers. Roll a d20; add any positive modifiers in your favor (i.e. a high degree of skill, favorable conditions, etc.). You then subtract all the modifiers that make the task harder, such as those for the fact that it is dark, that you are cold and hungry, that enemies are shooting at you, etc. If the result of the d20 roll is 10 or less, then you have failed. If the result is greater than 10, you have succeeded. If the result is greater than 10 it is successful. If the result is 10 or less you have failed. The amount you roll greater than 10 tells you how many successes you have. The amount you get less than 10 is the number of failures. A natural, unmodified roll of 20 is an automatic success and you roll the d20 again adding that number to the final result. A natural, unmodified roll of a 1 is an automatic failure.

Combat likewise is determined by a single d20 roll, this includes attack and damage. You roll your d20, add your modifiers and subtract your opponent's modifiers. If the result is greater than 10, you hit. The higher the number, the greater the damage. A successful defense roll reduces the attacker's successes.  Damage is figured from the same die roll you used to hit. For instance, say I roll a 15 to hit. That's 5 successes. If my weapon does 1M damage (meaning you multiply the successes by 1), then I did 5 damage. If it's a 2M weapon, I did 10 damage. 1M+2 weapon, 7 damage. Armor soaks and the remainder is subtracted from Hit Points (LF).

Okay so I would like to change where the defender rolls only if he is actually hit. That is where the damage save comes into play.

Thoughts welcomed.

Not sure if this would help but if you want the skinny on how True20 does damage saves, an "equivalent" SRD is at http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/srd/srd_true_romantic/index.html

Look at the section on Damage and Recovery.

(I like Waste World on reading but I don't know the system well enough to recommend tweaks, and I have even less knowledge of True20.)

Elliot, thanks for the link. I've got a general understanding. Just want to see if someone can go a bit further with it or give me something else to consider.

vgunn, welcome to the boards.

Now, if I may, offer you a solution to what I think your looking for after you spelt out how things work in this particullar system.

The problem arises that there is already a mechanic to lower number of successes when a player gets hit to reduce damage, and the fact that armor further mitigates the damage into the final result.

I would further speculate that this would make a additional save versus the actual damage ruin the "feel" of the one roll methodology how this game works. Some how, you need to pump up the effectivness of that one defense roll.

My unusuall workaround would be to do the following: have the one defense roll also equal additional soak (Whatever the total number is). Add the players level as well to that soak number. Any remaining damage that actually carries over will equate to "Wounded" which then confirs a -1 penalty on all rolls for the remainder of the combat. Further subsequent damage then increases this negative up to -5 at which point the character is unconceince and bleeding out.  This should, in theory make higher level characters harder to kill, and maintain lower level eventualities for player to worry about.

that -modifier untill death can of course be changed to the range you want to be at, but 5 good hits that actually blow through the insivible hitpoint success barrier is a good mid range for players.

So this built in mechanic is just the opposite really, of how the damage works (since its based off the one number) but instead of just reducing the number of success it also soaks damage too. The adding player level to the additional invisible hitpoint save evens out the 1M or 2M factor as well, but not so much as to have a really big M weapon punch through and hurt them.

Secondly the -modifier further connects to the basic game mechanics of the system it self, and lowers damage output and further saves, as a means of inducing the feel of danger.

So i hope that helps.

If I remember correctly, Waste World has no concept of "level". It reminds me a bit of a special-purpose GURPS.

Right. No levels. Skill+Attribute+d20.

Here is the SRD, a bit more simplified than True20 -- but I may actually like it better. So I like help in melding this to the mechanic mentioned in my original post.

Injury

The d20 game’s hit point system is an easy and effective way of measuring character health—but it’s somewhat abstract. This variant eliminates hit points, and simply determines whether characters are hurt or killed every time they’re hit in combat.
Determining Injuries

When using the injury variant, characters no longer have hit points. Instead, a character’s injuries accumulate until he becomes disabled or dying (or staggered or unconscious, if he has taken nonlethal damage).

When a character or creature takes damage, divide the damage dealt by the attack by 5 (rounding up). The result is the damage value of the attack. For example, if you are hit by an attack that deals 12 points of damage, the attack has a damage value of 3 (12 divided by 5, rounded up).

To determine if you are injured, make a Fortitude save to resist injury. The DC is 15 + the damage value.

If you succeed on the save, you suffer no ill effect from the attack.

If you fail the save by less than 10, you have taken a hit. (If the attack dealt nonlethal damage, the hit is a nonlethal hit.) Each hit you take imposes a cumulative -1 modifier on future Fortitude saves to resist injury.

If you fail the save by 10 or more, you are disabled. (If the attack dealt nonlethal damage, you are staggered.)
Automatic Success and Failure

A natural 20 on a Fortitude save to resist injury is treated as an automatic success, just as normal. A natural 1 is always treated as if the save failed by 10 or more. Saving Throw Result   Lethal Damage   Nonlethal Damage
Success   No effect   No effect
Failed by 1 to 9   Hit   Nonlethal hit
Failed by 10 or more   Disabled   Staggered

Condition Descriptions

Use the descriptions below to determine the game effects from a failed saving throw to resist injury.
Hit

A hit means you have suffered some minor injury. Every hit imposes a cumulative -1 penalty on all Fortitude saves to resist injury.

If a disabled character (see below) suffers a hit, he becomes dying.
Disabled

A disabled character is conscious, but can only take a single move action or standard action each turn (nor can he take full-round actions). He moves at half speed. Taking a move action doesn’t risk further injury, but performing any standard action (or any other action the GM deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell) worsens the character’s condition to dying (unless the action involved healing; see below).

If 5 or more points of magical healing are applied to a disabled character, he is no longer disabled.

A character can be both staggered and disabled. Becoming staggered while disabled does not worsen a character’s condition to dying. If a staggered and disabled character receives at least 5 points of healing, both conditions are removed.

A disabled character who suffers a hit or a disabled result from an attack becomes dying.
Dying

A dying character is unconscious and near death. Each round on his turn, a dying character must make a Fortitude save, DC 10, +1 per turn after the first) to become stable. Penalties suffered from hits apply to this saving throw.

If the character fails the save, he dies.

If the character succeeds on the save by less than 5, he does not die but does not improve. He is still dying and must continue to make Fortitude saves every round.

If the character succeeds on the save by 5 or more, he becomes conscious and disabled.

Another character can improve a dying character’s condition to stable by making a DC 15 heal check as a standard action (this provokes attacks of opportunity).

A dying character who suffers a hit or a disabled result from an attack is killed.
Nonlethal Hit

A nonlethal hit means you have been battered and bruised and are in less than top condition. Every nonlethal hit you take imposes a cumulative -1 penalty on your Fortitude saves to resist injury from nonlethal damage. Nonlethal hits do not affect Foritude saves against lethal damage.

For example, a character with 4 hits and 3 nonlethal hits has a -4 penalty on Fortitude saves to resist injury from lethal damage, but a -7 penalty on saves to resist injury from non-lethal damage.

A staggered character (see below) who suffers a nonlethal hit or becomes staggered as the result of an attack becomes unconscious.
Staggered

Being staggered is identical to being disabled (see above), except that if a character’s condition worsens, he becomes unconscious instead of dying.

If 5 or more points of magical healing are applied to a staggered character, he is no longer staggered.

A character can be both disabled and staggered. Becoming disabled while staggered does not worsen your condition to unconscious. If a staggered and disable character receives at least 5 points of healing, both conditions are removed.

A staggered character who suffers a nonlethal hit or a staggered result from an attack falls unconscious.
Unconscious

An unconscious character falls to the floor, helpless and incapable of action. Additional nonlethal hits have no effect on the character. When he recovers one nonlethal hit, he becomes conscious.

I'm watching the thread, I'm not sure I'd change it (admittedly, not a fan of HP's but they do keep things fairly simple.)

I'll get out my books and see if I can think of any amendments.

Quote from: SilverlionI'll get out my books and see if I can think of any amendments.

Please do! I think the damage save would not change the design of the system.

Strange, but just yesterday I was wrestling with the problem of how to replace hits points in the OMNI system (Talislanta) with a simplified True20 damage track. Waste World sounds a lot like OMNI, so here's what I came up with:

Attack roll determines degree of success. (1/2, full, or full + crit).

Damage = [weapons damage (fixed number) x degree ] + STR mod.

Subtract armour rating from damage.

Now, instead of a save roll, each combatant has a Damage Rating. If the damage that gets through the armour is equal or higher than the DR, the target suffers a Wound (-5 to all rolls). If the damage is greater than zero, but less than the DR, the target suffers a Fatigued result.

Characters have a Fatigue rating. Each Fatigued results moves you down the track. Fatigued characters suffer -1 to all rolls. Once you're out of Fatigue you are Exhausted (-3 to all rolls) and any subsequent hit is automatically a Wound.

A Critical Success on the attack roll is an automatic Wound.

Two Wounds and you're dead (or defeated/incapacitated).


So a Red Reaver attacks our hero Krago. After comparing combat ratings, the GM comes up with a +2 modifier for the attack roll on Krago. He rolls a 7, which becomes a  9: a Partial Success. The damage for the Red Reaver's claws is 6. The Partial Success yields 3 damage.

Krago's Armour Rating is 2. So 1 points of damage makes it past the armour. Krago's Wound Rating is 4, so he suffers only a Fatigued result. Krago notes he has been reduced from 4 Fatigue Points to 3. Krago now makes all rolls at -1.

On a subsequent attack, the Reaver rolls 14 (+2) for a 16. That's a Full Success for 6 points of damage. Krago's armour only absorbs 2 points, so 4 points of damage gets through. That matches Krago's Wound Rating, so he suffers a Wound.


I haven't playtested this system yet, so I can't say how it works in practice. My sense already is that I could run into problems where some targets can only be hit by a crit. Perhaps applying penalties to the combatant's Armour Rating or Wound Rating as they grow Fatigued would make combats more deadly as they progress, which feels right.

Sounds like a very good start, Haffrung. And yes, you're right, Waste World is similar to Talislanta. For more info, including an intro version of the whole system, see

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/WasteWorld/WasteWorld.html
http://kuoi.com/~kamikaze/WasteWorld/

and within the above, note http://kuoi.com/~kamikaze/WasteWorld/www.manticor.com/

Quote from: HaffrungSnip.

Excellent stuff Haffrung. Yes Omni is very similar to Waste World so this is something that could work. I will think about it and post back.