Before warmages, it was presumed by many that the most effective use of a sorcerer was a combat blaster, since if they focussed on that they could out-blast wizards.

But then along comes the Warmage, a specifically created Arcane Blasting class, which basically blasts sorcerers out of the water. What do they give up? Well, just about everything else. A warmage gets very few non-blasting spells, even with Advanced Learning.

So... where does the sorcerer fit in now? In a party with a Warmage, where can a sorcerer find utility? Should the Warmage class simply replace the sorcerer? It's kind of like sorcerers are now half-wizards, half-warmages. They're suffering from a lack of focus, like bards, and don't really excel in any one specific thing.

I've always wanted to play a sorceror focused on enchantments. With the high CHA and limited spells it seems a good fit thematically. I've never tried it because I think all that charming would annoy my DM.

Sorcerers had already begun to lose their utility, when PRCs (and the bard) began using the same mechanics. the warmage is a nice way of making a blaster, but It doesn't invalidate the sorcerer's existance.

currently, when I build a charcarter who has spellcasting levels, I tend to use the sorcerer for a couple of reasons - 1) i'm multiclassing and I only want certain spells anyway, and 2) I would rather be able to cast those spells often, instead of fewer times per day as a wizard.

the sorc is a great support class, but I really can't see anyone taking it very far without beginning to feel useless. the spell progression sucks compared to a lot of other classes, the spells you get are so limited, and the skills you get don't make up for it.

Face it -- sorcerers were useless the day they rolled off the assembly lines.  Sure, you can fiddle with them to make them competent, but they're just sub-par, period.

Quote from: CyberzombieFace it -- sorcerers were useless the day they rolled off the assembly lines.  Sure, you can fiddle with them to make them competent, but they're just sub-par, period.

Nah. they're really great for the munchkin in me. I'll never take more than 4 levels of sorc, but those four levels cna lead to all kinds of fun situational shit for just about any character.

If the party already include a wizzy, playing a warmage is a no brainer.

If you're the only arcanist, I would go for a sorc.

Quote from: AelfinnNah. they're really great for the munchkin in me. I'll never take more than 4 levels of sorc, but those four levels cna lead to all kinds of fun situational shit for just about any character.

I've played around with a small number of builds where a single level of sorcerer is good - slight spell increase and don't have to worry about what to memorize.  For example, a rogue with a few rogue related spells or a fighter with true strike.  But as often as not, I'd rather have 1 level of wizard for the flexibility and scrolls.

Quote from: AelfinnNah. they're really great for the munchkin in me. I'll never take more than 4 levels of sorc, but those four levels cna lead to all kinds of fun situational shit for just about any character.

Okay, with sufficient work, you can make any class (even a lame one, like the swashbuckler or the samurai) work well.  Especially if you only take a few levels.

But the *good* classes -- like fighter, evoker, cleric, warlock, rogue -- you can take, make any feat choices you want, fiddle around any way you want, and you'll still have at least a decent character, because your base powers are good.  If you have any brains at all, you can't screw them up.

Sorcerers you have to hand-hold and agonize over, making them a sub-optimal choice.  Or, to be more precise, they suck ass.  

Sorcs are a great way to build theme mages, especially with all the new spells around.

For example a spidermage, with web and other restricting spells, acid and poison, some movement spelly and one or two odd spells.

Quote from: goldSorcs are a great way to build theme mages, especially with all the new spells around.

I find that I can do that just as well with a wizard through specialization and spell selection, plus the bonus feats make it easier.  But then, if I'm in a situation where that schtick doesn't work, I can still use other spells.

Quote from: Harry JoyTo be honest, I've already pretty much decided to go halfsies with Paladin. If I'm gonna munchkin this guy, I'm gonna go all the way.

Mmmm... should I admit...

I played a munchy sorc once, and he was quite simply [Unreal Tournament]UNSTOPPABLE![/Unreal Tournament]

Lawful Good, 2 levels of Paladin, 2 levels of monk, the rest in sorc. Feats: Practiced Spellcaster (CompArc), Empower, Ascetic Mage (CompAdv), Energy Substitution (acid or lightning).

EVERYTHING in Charisma.

At level 12, I had Armor Class up the Wazoo, Saving Throws sky-high, and my caster level was 12. Of course, you focus on spells that don't allow saving throws (Conjurations), such as Scorching Ray and all the Orb spells.

Up until that point, I was having a hard time keeping up, but when I truly hit my stride, the DM basically ignored me in fights, taking for granted the damage I would inflict each round.

:win:

I played a Sorcerer centered around the "Shrink Item" spell, once.  He had things like Fabricate, Minor Creation, Reduce, etc.  But absolutely no spell that could be considered offensive (though, he was probably looking at Polymorph Other).  He was generally considered more beneficial than the Evoker in the group.
 
I think a lot of that may have come from me playing to my strengths (Rube-Goldberging), but I do tend to believe that Sorcerers are nice as "themed" casters, regardless of the theme.  They are slightly weak, on the whole, though (says me, after trying a blaster sorcerer).
 
I think my solution would be to hybridize the Warmage and the Sorcerer into a single class that got a breadth of spells somewhere between the two, but was limited to having that be their "spell list" (for spell trigger, etc. items).  Maybe give them 4 skill points, light armored casting, or slightly better weapon usage, too.  Since some of the balance on the Warmage comes from such an outrageously narrow/redundant spell list, I'm afraid it'd take quite a bit of work to avoid turning the Sorcerer V2.0 into an uberclass.

Quote from: SobekI think my solution would be to hybridize the Warmage and the Sorcerer into a single class that got a breadth of spells somewhere between the two, but was limited to having that be their "spell list" (for spell trigger, etc. items).  Maybe give them 4 skill points, light armored casting, or slightly better weapon usage, too.  Since some of the balance on the Warmage comes from such an outrageously narrow/redundant spell list, I'm afraid it'd take quite a bit of work to avoid turning the Sorcerer V2.0 into an uberclass.

That's some good thinking... maybe modify the Warmage class so you could pick which school of magic was your thing, and automatically get all spells of that school...

Quote from: Name LipsThat's some good thinking... maybe modify the Warmage class so you could pick which school of magic was your thing, and automatically get all spells of that school...

They seem to be working in that direction, with classes like the Dread Necromancer (Necromancy + some general creepy spells like evard's black tentacles) and, as I understand it, the Beguiler (mindfuck spells, mostly enchantment and illusion).

I think if you just gave the Sorcerer a normal spell progression (getting 2nd level spells at 3rd level instead of 4th), they'd be a nice compromise between a Wizard and a Warmage. Not as focused as the Warmage, not as flexible as the Wizard, but not totally screwed by the delayed spell progression.