I been DMing GURPS for nearly 20 years and GURPS Combat can take a while to resolve compared to other systems.

I was looking over the fan produced playtest rules, released monsters, and D&D experience character sheets.

I tried out a little combat round with D&D 4th. Going through I felt like I played this game before. Then it hit me that the combats in the GURPS Campaign I ran where everyone was a wizard felt like this.

What first set me on this road was the length of time the combat was taking. While it was a lot less complex than 3rd edition all the options and counter options made it more of a back and forth affair. I was thinking "Gee no wonder they are only going have to a handful of encounters in a module. It all they have time for!"

I am not saying they feel like the same game. Far from it. But they seem to have an equivalent number of tactical options and an entire combat seems to drag out the same amount of time because of it.

Reading account of 4th edition actual just deepens this feeling.

The implication of this is that when combat occurs it dominates the game timewise. This is not always a good thing from my experience playing GURPS.

As a GURP GM I learned to mix this up between sessions that are nearly all role-playing and ones nearly all combat. I also teach my new players to work the system so they can put down their opponents quicker. ("You may want to use a feint here")

But I can see for D&D DMs coming out of 3.5 or 3rd edition try to run 4th edition with the same amount of combat in 3rd. They will find that session after session are nothing but combat which gets old after time.

3.5 does have this problem as well but it doesn't kick in until after the mid levels (8th or so). 4th edition appears to be of equal complexity across multiple levels with the implication that combat are dragged out across all levels.

Am I reading this right?

Rob Conley

Quote from: estarBut I can see for D&D DMs coming out of 3.5 or 3rd edition try to run 4th edition with the same amount of combat in 3rd. They will find that session after session are nothing but combat which gets old after time.

3.5 does have this problem as well but it doesn't kick in until after the mid levels (8th or so). 4th edition appears to be of equal complexity across multiple levels with the implication that combat are dragged out across all levels.

Am I reading this right?

Rob Conley

Besides 1st through maybe 3rd or 4th taking somewhat longer than the same level previous, overall it runs counter what else we've been hearing of the change in number of combats you can get in per session.

My impression is that 4th Edition combat taken round by round is significantly shorter than in 3.5, but the combats overall are of similar length.

What I mean is: a 3.5 combat seems to take me around 30-45 minutes. During this time, there will be 5 or 6 rounds.

At DDXP the 4.0 combat I was involved in also seemed to last around 30-45 minutes. During this time, there seemed to be around 15-20 rounds.

We average 8-12 rounds in two hours using 3.5 and derivatives (mostly Iron Heroes with house rules), but we can speed things up considerably if positioning is unimportant or if one side begins to flee, or if we're trying to finish up before midnight, etc.

GURPS 4e kicks D&D 4e's ass and it came first!

Yeah, Walkerp is right. This should really be an argument about how much our favorite game is best. So since I'm tired right now, please just assume I appear in every thread under WalkerP saying the opposite of what he likes.

Wow, when we play 3.5, the average combat lasts 4-6 rounds and takes about 20 minutes...unless someone decides to grapple.  We regularly go through 10 to 15 combats in a 6 hour session, with another hour devoted to role-playing, kibbitizing and the like.  I think shopping for gear and leveling are the only real time-consuming activities in our game.

Abyssal Maw rules!

Quote from: estarI been DMing GURPS for nearly 20 years and GURPS Combat can take a while to resolve compared to other systems.

Compared to which systems? :confused: Mind you, I don't want to dismiss your experience as irrelevant, but I've always found combat in GURPS to be very fast, and I used several advanced rules, like hit locations. What is really slow in GURPS is chargen, that's the real sin of this game, but combat? :confused:

Maybe it's one of the reasons why I love the Capitán Alatriste RPG, it's GURPS with fast chargen.

Quote from: ClaudiusCompared to which systems? :confused: Mind you, I don't want to dismiss your experience as irrelevant, but I've always found combat in GURPS to be very fast, and I used several advanced rules, like hit locations. What is really slow in GURPS is chargen, that's the real sin of this game, but combat? :confused:

Because of the defense rolls and the maneuvers that can be used to boost defense. It is better under the 4th edition.

Tin Can Orc was a notorious NPC of mine that abused the GURPS Combat System. Took forever to beat down. Had High PD, High DR, High Strength, High Pain Threshold, with Plate Armor, Sword and Shield for 150 points. Usually took three players to take him out in a reasonable time. One to make him blow his block, another to blow his parry, and the last to hit on his dodge which was low.

Alas Tin Can Orc is no more in Fourth Edition, no only his defenses are lower but the High Pain Threshold changes decrease his durability.

PCs and other NPCs are more well rounded than Tin Can Orc but still have 13+ active defenses. So fights tend to play out for a while (30 to 45 minutes for an average size). This is compounded by the fact you can't as easily ignore opponents as you can in D&D so the PC pair up a lot of the time against their opponents. Sometimes they try to fight in a line to get a 2 on 1 advantage.

When 3.5 gets to high level the tactical options get crazier than GURPS.

Tin Can Orc Stats (3rd Edition)

ST: 13 DX: 14 IQ: 8 HT: 11
SPD: 6.25

Magic Resistance +10 (20), Combat Reflexes (15),

Orc Race (-10), Sadism (-15), Bully (-10), Greed (-15)

Quirks: Likes to beat up weaker creatures, Grovels to superiors, Tries to outdrink everyone, Goes into tavern to pick fights, talks nicely to victims before killing them.

Broadsword-17 (16), Shield-19 (24), Stealth-16 (, Escape-20 (24)

Parry: 9, Shield: 10, Dodge: 5 (Move 6  -2 Enc, +1 Combat Reflex)

Head: PD 7 DR 9 Rest of the Body: PD 7 DR 7

Thrusting Broadsword Cut 2d: Imp 1d+1

Note: This version ditches the High Pain threshold in favor of Magic Resistance.

Attributes: 80
Advantages: 35
Disadvantages: -50
Quirks: -5
Skills: 72
Points: 122

My first edition solution to tin can orc was an 18 ST lizardman with two crossbows that he cocked, and passed back and forth with a DX 13, Crossbow 18 fighter.

Even the half weight plate armour one character had was no match for that.

Anyhow, people always kvetch about Rolemaster's slow combat, but in RM it might take some figuring but hitting stuff very effective, indeed finally so, all in all I find it faster than GURPS or D&D 3.5 (which I have actually played and own) though GURPS does a better job of building narrative action through simulation.  I'm not sure what 3.5's excuse is...