But at that point, your reason for not wanting to play the WH40k rpgs is because you don't actually want to play in the WH40k setting, you want to play in a setting where you can start as a rat-catcher and work your way up to Space Marine-hood.

I think that sort of "from nobody to vastly important person" approach doesn't fit WH40k at all, because it implies a degree of...upward social mobility which does not exist in the setting.

Again, I'm not saying the concept is inherently bad (even though I myself hate that kind of game) but at this point, aren't you complaining that Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch aren't the perfect systems to run a setting which exists only in your head and actually isn't the setting they set out to run?

Quote from: Axiomatic;429786But at that point, your reason for not wanting to play the WH40k rpgs is because you don't actually want to play in the WH40k setting, you want to play in a setting where you can start as a rat-catcher and work your way up to Space Marine-hood.

I think that sort of "from nobody to vastly important person" approach doesn't fit WH40k at all, because it implies a degree of...upward social mobility which does not exist in the setting.

Again, I'm not saying the concept is inherently bad (even though I myself hate that kind of game) but at this point, aren't you complaining that Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch aren't the perfect systems to run a setting which exists only in your head and actually isn't the setting they set out to run?

Yes.  I've been saying this.

For Pundit, how many books do you think it would take to get all the material ready for the system you're talking about?

Where did he say you'd work your way up to playing a space marine?
You could rise up the ranks of a hive-gang... A cult... Pirate crew... Do a Traveller-esque trading/smuggling career... Loads more to the setting than just the military and bureaucratic stuff.

Quote from: Simlasa;429811Where did he say you'd work your way up to playing a space marine?
You could rise up the ranks of a hive-gang... A cult... Pirate crew... Do a Traveller-esque trading/smuggling career... Loads more to the setting than just the military and bureaucratic stuff.

You can do all that stuff with the game as it's published.

I know because we've been doing it all this time.

To be fair there isn't much social mobility in the WFB Empire either. The PCs are exceptional people.

But I admit the 40K setting has less options for advancement. There is a character Ragnar Blackmane meets who is a scribe of the 14th teir. He's from 14 generations of scribes of the 14th teir. Ragnar gets him promoted to the 8th teir and he freaks out and goes mad.

Quote from: Blackhand;429840You can do all that stuff with the game as it's published.

I know because we've been doing it all this time.

I'm just responding to the criticism that Pundit wants to do some sort of 'non-40K' thing.
Social mobility within the Imperial ranks... nobility... social classes might be stratified and rigid... but it's hardly a monoculture. It such a huge place that there are surely areas where a person CAN do the zero-to-hero thing if they wanted, rise up from the muck to rule a planet... at least they'll seem like the hero until the marines/inquisition/tyranids show up (though that might never happen).

I seem to remember there was a Marine Chapter mentioned once that recruited exclusivly from criminals and vagrants.

So yeah there is mobility.

Quote from: Ian Warner;429848I seem to remember there was a Marine Chapter mentioned once that recruited exclusivly from criminals and vagrants.

So yeah there is mobility.

What chapter is that?

Quote from: Axiomatic;429786But at that point, your reason for not wanting to play the WH40k rpgs is because you don't actually want to play in the WH40k setting, you want to play in a setting where you can start as a rat-catcher and work your way up to Space Marine-hood.

I think that sort of "from nobody to vastly important person" approach doesn't fit WH40k at all, because it implies a degree of...upward social mobility which does not exist in the setting.

Note that I said that I might make the career paths more rigid; but ignoring that for a moment: what specifically in the WH fantasy battles gives the impression that a lowly ratcatcher could become a Knight Panther? NOTHING, that's what.

The fact that in a fucking wargame there aren't means accommodating to the necessities of a decent RPG is not a surprise, that's why you make the world similar but not the same, in exactly the same way WFRP did with the world of WFB.  The two worlds are NOT the same, they just look very similar to one another.

RPGPundit

Note: Depending on which book/author space marines do recruit criminals and hive scum and so forth, but they tend to do it 'very young'.  Under ten years old in some cases.

Of course other books have them recruiting 'very young' adults... and while I hate to us C.S. Goto as a source for anything, his Dawn of War novels had a very detailed description of the conversion process being applied to a 'very young' guardsman the Blood Ravens had recruited. Due to his 'advanced age' for selection and/or the speed with which they brought him over he suffered 'minor' mutations (tentacles in the shape of hands) as a result.

So despite being pretty familiar with 'canon' regarding this, there is a wide range of ages that are considered 'too old' to 'social mobile' into Space Marines.

I rather think the ten year olds are the more acceptable cases to the creators of the universe and older ages are drift from people not paying attention (since trials by grande melee to the death or other lethal culling are very common... maybe some people get squeamish thinking of children butchering each other to get 'promoted' to godhood and mentally edit the age upwards to more acceptable territory).

What the pundit is asking for doesn't actually make sense.  The Setting presented in the original Rogue Trader doesn't 'work' or 'make sense' in any particular fashion. Its a bunch of artwork and largely unconnected 'stuff' thrown together, roughly linked thematically.  It isn't even clearly an RPG, looking an awful lot like a Wargame.

Re: Recruitment ages

So far I know there is nothing that says outright that the conversion process for all chapters is identical. In fact, we know it isn't because the geneseed of some has drifted enough that differences have come in, certain organs not forming and other minor changes happening only to specific chapters (fangs, black skin, etc.). Only the end products have to be more or less similar to one another.

Different chapters, especially from different foundings & geneseed lines may therefore have radically different conversion processes, some of which do work best in adult individuals, and some of which require children or adolescents. First Founding chapters probably have the most flexible process because it dates back to before the Heresy, whereas later foundings probably use simplified variants of it.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;429646While I do like DH etc., I don't think this is impossible to do. I'd use a BRP-variant and simply have people choose their "race" as Space Marine, various xenos, or ordinary humans from various worlds. Space Marines get higher stats but fewer skill points, ordinary humans get tons of skill points but lower stats, and xenos are in-between. Then, PCs each pick a skill package based on their background and spend points as appropriate.

This wouldn't be too hard a conversion because DH is already fairly similar to BRP.

Actually, I'm giving Diaspora a proper read-through, finally, and it could probably do 40K pretty well.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;429969Re: Recruitment ages

So far I know there is nothing that says outright that the conversion process for all chapters is identical. In fact, we know it isn't because the geneseed of some has drifted enough that differences have come in, certain organs not forming and other minor changes happening only to specific chapters (fangs, black skin, etc.). Only the end products have to be more or less similar to one another.

Different chapters, especially from different foundings & geneseed lines may therefore have radically different conversion processes, some of which do work best in adult individuals, and some of which require children or adolescents. First Founding chapters probably have the most flexible process because it dates back to before the Heresy, whereas later foundings probably use simplified variants of it.

Well, I seem to recall that the original legions, at least prior to the recovery of the Primarchs were actually vat grown entirely.

But given that we are discussing genetic alteration, I would imagine that there is a set range of appropriate ages that can't be deviated from... and spanning pre-pubescent to adult is verboten...to wild a time, pick one side or the other.  This is, after all, the canon reason for all space marines to be Male as well.

Drift in geneseed and loss of technique would actually make it MORE important to keep the right age grouping, after all at one time all chapters used the same basic techniques and materials, with the only difference the genetic variation of the original primarchs and the original recruitment populations (planetary, not age related...).

Of course, if you buy the scene in teh Horus Heresy novels, the primarch's were made using more warp sorcery than genetic science, and thus the production of a space marine is potentially at least as much a process of witchcraft as science as well....

Quote from: Blackhand;429946What chapter is that?

I don't know. I don't think they ever got a full write up just a mention in a general article about Space Marine Recruitment (back when GW wrote background in their magazine rather than just adverts.) Iron Scars rings a bell but they might be just two words I randomly put together to make a cool sounding Marine Chapter.

Oh and a fun little game. You can create a concept for a Space Marine Chapter by putting the words "IN SPACE" at the end of any general concept. Example.

Space Wolves: Piss head Vikings IN SPACE!

Dark Angels: Keepers of dark secrets IN SPACE!

Relictors: Keepers of darker secrets IN SPACE!

Blood Angels: Crazy vampires IN SPACE!

Black Templars: The Knights Templar IN SPACE!

White Scars: Heavy Metal Bikers IN SPACE!

Quote from: Ian Warner;429993White Scars: Heavy Metal Bikers IN SPACE!

Er... Mongols, IN SPACE!

Also: We have no time for your silly unsupported claims. Get thee back here with proper citations, we've got canonistas in attendance and that fluffy feel good "I sorta think maybe I saw it..." shit don't fly.

Just sayin'...