WHFRP3e?  I like it.

The issue here is that WFRP 1e, with a handful of exceptions in the rules (the infamous "naked dwarf syndrome"), is just very well suited for what it wants to accomplish. Its individual elements come together very nicely, and where they are uncomfortable, they are meant to be (like the way mental illnesses are supposed to be "treated"). From this perspective, a new edition doesn't even come across as wrong-headed but simply superfluous.

I read and played WFRP3e for a while and IMO the biggest issue with it is that there is too much going on and the designers lack any real skill to cut back on the noise created. It also left a lot to the GM to resolve, simply because they couldn't design parts of the rules properly like the tracker.

The dice pool system was another example. A good idea but effectively just left all those symbols to be intepretted by the GM however they liked in many instances. As a result, the dice results actually become less meaningful, rather than more.

Overall, it was an interesting idea with some nice elements. But ultimately it did not work for me at all.

EDIT: And to give example of poor design, there is an action card in the Lure of Power supplement called Bribery. That's right. Without having purchased that card with XP, a PC can't attempt Bribery. That seems contrary to WFRP to me

One of the huge problems with it is its packaging. Core set uou get the rules for one type of human, two elves and one dwarf. You want to play an Empire human that is not a rieklander, you need an expensive supplement. You want to play a human that's not from the Empire, that will be a different expensive supplement. You want to play a Halfling, well you cant, but if things go to plan it will be another expensive supplement. Careers is the same story.

So if you buy every supplement out so far, which has got to set you back a pretty packet, you still wont have all the material in the 2nd Edition Core Book.

Quote from: jadrax;517645One of the huge problems with it is its packaging. Core set uou get the rules for one type of human, two elves and one dwarf. You want to play an Empire human that is not a rieklander, you need an expensive supplement. You want to play a human that's not from the Empire, that will be a different expensive supplement. You want to play a Halfling, well you cant, but if things go to plan it will be another expensive supplement. Careers is the same story.

So if you buy every supplement out so far, which has got to set you back a pretty packet, you still wont have all the material in the 2nd Edition Core Book.

Which is the way that despite smaller sales than v2 (complete guess, but i'd take that bet) it's probably more profitable.

Quote from: One Horse Town;517649Which is the way that despite smaller sales than v2 (complete guess, but i'd take that bet) it's probably more profitable.

Its hard to say because there's a lot of factors involved. But a core one is that FFG is a company that is optimised for making Board Games, so its a lot cheaper for them to put out big boxes full of bits than it is to do books. With another company, those margins may well not be the same.

I love it.

Dice mechanics work great
Cards keep the info on the table.
trackers again keep the info on the table.
There are lots of bits you can use or not use depending on the situation at hand.
Combat is awesome with the combinations of group initiative, the action timers and the descriptive range elements.

The one area where it needs a cleanup now though is in merging the rule books.  It's a little spread out for some things.

Quote from: jadrax;517657Its hard to say because there's a lot of factors involved. But a core one is that FFG is a company that is optimised for making Board Games, so its a lot cheaper for them to put out big boxes full of bits than it is to do books. With another company, those margins may well not be the same.

They've got a book-based RPG line, though (Depending on how you count, they've got either one or four).

WFRP3 does let them cover multiple market segments; WFRP3 covers the D&D4-esque "table aid fans", and WH40K covers "traditional RPG" fans.

Quote from: Ladybird;517690They've got a book-based RPG line, though (Depending on how you count, they've got either one or four).

Which only covers the first three supplements.

Quote from: Skywalker;517691Which only covers the first three supplements.

I was thinking of the 40k games, actually.

Quote from: Ladybird;517694I was thinking of the 40k games, actually.

Ah. Then you are right

Quote from: One Horse Town;517649Which is the way that despite smaller sales than v2 (complete guess, but i'd take that bet) it's probably more profitable.

There are suckers who'd buy Middenheim Human pack, rather then just say "All humans are same as the guy from Reikland"? O_o

Quote from: Rincewind1;517700There are suckers who'd buy Middenheim Human pack, rather then just say "All humans are same as the guy from Reikland"? O_o

There's a Middenheim Human pack?

More seriously, I don't think a person is being a sucker if they don't purely base their decisions on quantity.

Quote from: Skywalker;517698Ah. Then you are right

You've touched on an interesting point, though, with the reference to the WFRP3 books. I like what WFRP3 does; it's a design that simply doesn't work properly under the traditional model of publication, and I like that somebody has been bold enough to launch that as a AAA release (In the video game sense of the phrase).

I want to see what designers can come up with, because the design space outside of "books and dice" is potentially huge and there's undoubtedly some great stuff in there for them to find.

I certainly don't want every game to be WFRP3, though; don't get me wrong, books-and-dice games work, and we're far from exhausting that design space. I'm just happy to see other spaces being explored.

Quote from: Rincewind1;517700There are suckers who'd buy Middenheim Human pack, rather then just say "All humans are same as the guy from Reikland"? O_o

Hadn't thought of it that way; in some ways it's very similar to The One Ring.

Save, of course, for T1R being a bit rubbish.

(Three of us in our WFRP game were in a T1R test group. When we each rolled up WFRP characters with Sing, we laughed, because we'd accidentally created characters for the wrong game line...)

At this point I've written off FFG as an RPG producer.  I still think Dark Heresy is a fantastic game for what it is, but "unfinished, wait for the sourcebook" seems to be their base development model, and that shit can get fucked.

I tried to read Deathwatch, but that is the most shittily edited book I've read since I used to play Palladium games.

I would like to get a copy of WFRP1e one of these days, but I've more or less given up on anything new Warhammer-wise that isn't a video game.