This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: [Wanker Naval Gazing] Do I make such games?  (Read 3454 times)

jdrakeh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • j
  • Posts: 916
[Wanker Naval Gazing] Do I make such games?
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2007, 03:06:05 PM »
Quote from: James J Skach
Since he came on here, essentially, as a defender of the faith (that is, in less snarky terms, to defend the Forge). . .


See, I don't think that's the case. Seems to me that he came here to answer questions. In point of fact, you were wrong when you suggested that Luke asked for this Q&A session. As the OP in the Q&A thread makes clear -- he asked Luke to do some Q&A here.

Quote
I think it's perfectly reasonalbe to ask questions that would, depending on how they were answered, put some of "the war" to rest.


I think that might be perfectly acceptable, too -- what you're failing to acknowledge is that how such questions are asked is also important. Right now, by the admission of many posters doing the asking, they're trying to "trap" Luke. Also, you seem to be open only to accepting answers that you want to hear, per your remark above (concerning answers).

That kind of attitude makes the whole affair totally pointless.
 

TonyLB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • T
  • Posts: 2274
[Wanker Naval Gazing] Do I make such games?
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2007, 03:15:57 PM »
Quote from: James J Skach
What I mean is that, for Luke to answer "Yeah, Edwards can be an ass, brain damaged was just that, and GNS isn't what makes my motor run, though aspects of it do help me design," would give too much of the store away.
Do you feel that such a series of statements from a prominent Forge-denizen would substantially mellow the believers in the War?
Superheroes with heart:  Capes!

James J Skach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5007
[Wanker Naval Gazing] Do I make such games?
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2007, 03:22:52 PM »
Quote from: jdrakeh
See, I don't think that's the case. Seems to me that he came here to answer questions. In point of fact, you were wrong when you suggested that Luke asked for this Q&A session. As the OP in the Q&A thread makes clear -- he asked Luke to do some Q&A here.

Fair enough.  But Alalq - who is certainly not, IMHO, trying to lay a trap, asked, and Luke said "sure, but start another thread."  Now, if luke couldn't handle it or didn't want to deal with it, he could very easily have said no.  Contrary to the vibe he gave off when discussing his (what now appears strange) "rock-star" incident, he's being at least decent enough to engage.

Quote from: jdrakeh
I think that might be perfectly acceptable, too -- what you're failing to acknowledge is that how such questions are asked is also important. Right now, by the admission of many posters doing the asking, they're trying to "trap" Luke. Also, you seem to be open only to accepting answers that you want to hear, per your remark above (concerning answers).

That kind of attitude makes the whole affair totally pointless.

Now, I'm laying a trap. Well, not really.  I'm just looking at all of the places I think people find issues and trying to, through questions, walk luke through that. With more venom and less tact, that's what I'm guessing AM is trying to do as well. Sett's just out of his mind. And if you look at his last answer, it tells me alot.  He does truly think a game can be objectively better than another. Perhaps my followup - instead of what I wrote about his answer to Spike - should be to understand in what ways he believes this to be true; by what measure?  In fact, I'll go ask. Just becasue I disagree doesn't mean I will only accept answers I want to hear.  Only that I want to hear straight answers to the actual questions.

All of which is balanced to a great extent by other posters who are asking questioned specifically (and, in some cases, very confrontationally - see Spike) about his design. When I have more time, I'll go look at that thread again and count the bad, good, and middling posts.  I bet it's fairly even - but that's just a guess.

It's a fair question as to whether or not I have blinders on.  I'd only ask you to look at yourself in the same manner.  Is your recent rising disgust with certain posters and positions making you hyper sensitive to what could be a damn fine thread that clears the air a bit?
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

The RPG Haven - Talking About RPGs

James J Skach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5007
[Wanker Naval Gazing] Do I make such games?
« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2007, 03:25:20 PM »
Quote from: TonyLB
Do you feel that such a series of statements from a prominent Forge-denizen would substantially mellow the believers in the War?

I think if enough people just copped to it - came out and said in the most public and forecful of ways these kinds of things, it would go a long way.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think they have to prostrate themselves to all of Pundy's wild-eyed ravings - they don't have to say "ya know, I am a pretentious git." But when someone says you are, saying that's their problem is something I rexamined in my life many years ago at the urging of some very wise people.
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

The RPG Haven - Talking About RPGs

TonyLB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • T
  • Posts: 2274
[Wanker Naval Gazing] Do I make such games?
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2007, 03:56:42 PM »
Quote from: James J Skach
I think if enough people just copped to it - came out and said in the most public and forecful of ways these kinds of things, it would go a long way.
Well, here's hopin'.  I think I said pretty much all those things in the most recent Pistols thread.  I'd certainly be pleased to think that was part of an ongoing march toward more reasoned discourse.
Superheroes with heart:  Capes!

jdrakeh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • j
  • Posts: 916
[Wanker Naval Gazing] Do I make such games?
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2007, 03:59:16 PM »
Quote from: James J Skach
I think if enough people just copped to it - came out and said in the most public and forecful of ways these kinds of things, it would go a long way.


That's what I meant by being open only to hearing specific answers. You want Forge posters to come over here and justify your viewpoint by way of submission. There are many people who don't believe that Edwards was full of it when he said these things or, alternately, for whom GNS is very important. Why should they sell out their personal beliefs and "admit" that your views are superior. That seems awfully unfair to me.

Now, to my credit, I think that Edwards is stunningly full of shit. That said, I would have vastly less respect if those people who don't believe this sold their beliefs down the river, came over to theRPGsite, and admitted otherwise just to appease the egos of certain posters here. I don't like a lot of people who post at the Forge but I do respect them.
 

James J Skach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5007
[Wanker Naval Gazing] Do I make such games?
« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2007, 04:10:07 PM »
Quote from: jdrakeh
That's what I meant by being open only to hearing specific answers. You want Forge posters to come over here and justify your viewpoint by way of submission. There are many people who don't believe that Edwards was full of it when he said these things or, alternately, for whom GNS is very important. Why should they sell out their personal beliefs and "admit" that your views are superior. That seems awfully unfair to me.

Now, to my credit, I think that Edwards is stunningly full of shit. That said, I would have vastly less respect if those people who don't believe this sold their beliefs down the river, came over to theRPGsite, and admitted otherwise just to appease the egos of certain posters here. I don't like a lot of people who post at the Forge but I do respect them.

Mr Hargrove - that is simply a straw man!

I'm not asking people who believe Edwards is full of wisdom to come here, genuflect, and say he's full of shit.  I'm asking them first - is he full of shit?  If not, then you must be ready to defend all of the shitty things he's said and done, and to which you lend your name, specifially in this case. If you do, then please help us understand how and why you continue to associate with him and his theory.  I'd really like to know, and not inthe judgemental way.  In a sense, I'm giving them the perfect opportunity to say in what specific ways the agree and disagree so as to help clear the air.

Look how well tony and I get along now.  We've come to a decent (I think) understanding.  I think we often see things in very different ways, but we don't have any inclination to say that one is objectively better than the other.  In fact, I often try to understand his view point to get a better grasp on why he thinks the way he does.

So, no. Sorry.  I don't want people to sell out their beliefs.  First establish them in plain language.  Then, if we disagree, either defend them or at least help me understand from whence you come - if you care to at all.

I don't respect people if they can't provide a simple straight answer of a relatively rational, straight-forward question. I don't respect people who claim "brain-damage" to sell games. I'm just trying to figure out who really believes it, that's all.
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

The RPG Haven - Talking About RPGs

jdrakeh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • j
  • Posts: 916
[Wanker Naval Gazing] Do I make such games?
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2007, 04:13:36 PM »
Quote from: James J Skach
I'm not asking people who believe Edwards is full of wisdom to come here, genuflect, and say he's full of shit.


Really? Unless you've gone back and edited your posts, that seems to be exactly what you're asking of such posters. You very specifically said that you hoped they would 'cop to it' (the "it" being your views on Edwards) :rolleyes:
 

James J Skach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5007
[Wanker Naval Gazing] Do I make such games?
« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2007, 04:25:37 PM »
Quote from: jdrakeh
Really? Unless you've gone back and edited your posts, that seems to be exactly what you're asking of such posters. You very specifically said that you hoped they would 'cop to it' (the "it" being your views on Edwards) :rolleyes:

Ahhh...miscommunication on my part.

I mean cop to it one way or the other.

Stay with me here...

If they don't agree, then there are some difficult questions to answer about why hang around.  Someone like Luke, or the new guy VBWyrde, have a good reason - the business side of the indie movement seems to be a good alternative for them. More power man.

If they do agree, then state it emphatically. And then be ready for the shit storm of protest because of the position this means you're taking.

Among the problems I see with the "Indie" movement is:
  • Conflation - that is, the indie business movement with the indie theory movement.  I can see the attraction to the former, even the latter for some folks who like to game a certain way. But what ends up happening is that in order to feed the first, the second suffers.  And I can see how people get in this kind of weird spot becasue the two are so intertwined.
  • There is No War - this is a fine attitude to take if you are not completely on board with the indie theory - you've cherry-picked idea that help you -  but you are on board with the indie business side. But this seems to now be the default answer and because it's so easy to conflate the two it seems to be saying "Look, we're just over here selling these games as independent publishers - what are you all upset about."


What ends up happening is this interesting bait and switch (again with the bait!).

So I apologize for the bad communication - I was answering shorthand to Tony and didn't get that it could be construed this way.
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

The RPG Haven - Talking About RPGs

TonyLB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • T
  • Posts: 2274
[Wanker Naval Gazing] Do I make such games?
« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2007, 04:31:21 PM »
Quote from: James J Skach
  • Conflation - that is, the indie business movement with the indie theory movement.
If I may, I think that what people mostly feel called upon to defend is a third thing:  The "Indie" community.  Actual people, rather than either abstractions or profit.  And yeah, I totally second the idea that conflation among all three items makes communication much harder.
Superheroes with heart:  Capes!

Gunslinger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 786
[Wanker Naval Gazing] Do I make such games?
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2007, 06:52:24 PM »
Quote from: James J Skach
If they don't agree, then there are some difficult questions to answer about why hang around. Someone like Luke, or the new guy VBWyrde, have a good reason - the business side of the indie movement seems to be a good alternative for them. More power man.

If they do agree, then state it emphatically. And then be ready for the shit storm of protest because of the position this means you're taking.

Because it's not that different than any forum, I'd say.  You take what you think is good with what you think is bad.  You stay because you think the good outweighs the bad.
 

jdrakeh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • j
  • Posts: 916
[Wanker Naval Gazing] Do I make such games?
« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2007, 07:55:35 PM »
Quote from: James J Skach
Ahhh...miscommunication on my part.

I mean cop to it one way or the other.


Ah, my bad. These are the dangers of text-based communication ;)