Quote from: RPGPunditIf you really think that my hating a game is enough to convince you that you'll like it, more power to you. Go nuts.  I really don't give a tinker's fuck whether or not you play indie games, as long as they're prevented from having an undue influence that ends up warping and ruining regular RPGs, and so long as they don't manage to sell what they're selling through lies and deception.

RPGPundit

I think it's yours and others inability to just be disinterested in a game.  Some of these games I never would have heard about or if I did it would be a quick once over that I would decide I didn't need.  They're not just new or different games but games that are destroying the hobby as we know it.  Then you use comments from the creators, fans, or interested passerbys as ammunition to prove your point.  There are more elitist assholes playing D&D than any assholes playing indie, small press, or 2nd tier publishers.  Talking about a game like Dogs in the Vineyard is like talking about the Passion of the Christ in church.  The average gamer will be interested in what the controversy is so they can judge for themselves.  They're drawing attention to the things they hate.

It's almost like your a not a very religious person who's a student of theology.

Quote from: GunslingerIt's almost like your a not a very religious person who's a student of theology.

Which, ironically, is a pretty good description of my actual RL Job.

RPGPundit

Bill,

Only if Lenny starts to wax poetically about the torture of being Squirrelferatu - the horror of being undead;  My lord, his goals are to feed on people and squirrels! And don't even get me started on Kharma points - we'd have to rehash our entire discussion from Game Day. Your games, from my limited experience, are anything but Wanker Navel Gazing.

But none of that matters.

If you think the fact that the sideshow of the "war" takes away from your business potential here, then that's a business decision.  But I rarely see, as others have pointed out, huge flamewars erupt over someone liking or talking about a game.

Jim

Quote from: James J SkachBill,

Only if Lenny starts to wax poetically about the torture of being Squirrelferatu - the horror of being undead;  My lord, his goals are to feed on people and squirrels! And don't even get me started on Kharma points - we'd have to rehash our entire discussion from Game Day. Your games, from my limited experience, are anything but Wanker Navel Gazing.

But none of that matters.

If you think the fact that the sideshow of the "war" takes away from your business potential here, then that's a business decision.  But I rarely see, as others have pointed out, huge flamewars erupt over someone liking or talking about a game.

Jim

Jim,
Business potential is in all forums. That is not my point. My issue was, and is, that the community is being shaped by the people on the extremes. This thread was, and continues to be, an attempt to raise awareness of what I hope is still the majority to this issue. I think it has helped but I could be wrong.

I can still see points that could be made about SA! It is not a "serious" adventure game. Is it necessarily a journey of exploration into the depths of your soul? I do not think so but who knows? I have quoted Lenin and now Lao Tsu in the books. Still, if you prefer, pick any other game that fits the profile better and ask the same questions. It is not so much discussion of "those games" are forbidden as we are stacking the deck so that people interested in all types of RPG discussion is narrowed to a subset. Again, perhaps not a bad thing but something I would like to avoid. As long as the owner does not disagree with that then I will continue to help out where I can to make new folks feel welcome, whether they are from a Forge background or a more trad background. If others have thought it over and come to the same conclusion, I feel the thread has served its purpose.

Of course, YMMV,
Bill

Hi Bill. . . nope.  I don't think that you make "wanker naval gazing" games -- such games are, I think, those that try to impose a specific style of play (e.g., story-oriented drama, hack and slash adventure, etc) by design.

Quote from: jdrakehHi Bill. . . nope.  I don't think that you make "wanker naval gazing" games -- such games are, I think, those that try to impose a specific style of play (e.g., story-oriented drama, hack and slash adventure, etc) by design.

My concern here, or use of it as an example, is that with the addition of Karma, I have transfered some power to the players to control plot, an area traditionally reserved for the GM. This seems to be counter to many of the extremists stance on acceptable design. Again, not going "Wah! Protect me!" but just wondering if such designers are welcome on theRPGSite still.

Hopefully my point is clear. I have gone some nights without sleep and am getting a bit fuzzy in my logic.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltAgain, not going "Wah! Protect me!" but just wondering if such designers are welcome on theRPGSite still.

Has anybody told you to fuck off and die beacause you like squirrels? I can't speak for the site (in fact, only Pundit can, really) but I welcome your participation here. I don't think your karma mechanic forces a certain style of play, rather, it is presented purely as an option, making a certain style of play possible (not mandatory).

See, now you made me go and reread Karma in SA!  Which is fine cause the pain meds will put me to sleep in a few anyway and it's a nice way cap off a just lovely day.

I think you overstate the effects of Karma.  As you state in the Iridium Lite section:

Quote from: Hinterwelt (from Squirrel Attack!)Karma is a player mechanic rather than an in game character mechanic. It represents the character's luck.

In a way, you straddle the fence here.  It's a player mechanic in that it can be invoked by the player in a meta-game way (re-rolling, automatic success, etc.). However - it's meant to represent the character's in-game aspect of Luck.

To me, it's no different than many mechanics from many games that in execution use meta-game information but represent in-game...stuff.

So as I said in our late-night post-game discussion, it's a neat way to satisfy different play styles.  Best, it can be pretty easily discarded, from what I can tell.

Having said all that, I think you are also overstating the effect of some (admittedly high profile) people here who might take an extreme stance on some aspect or another.  I am, so far, pretty confident in TheRPGSite folks to call bullshit on that stuff.

I mean, my god...Luke Crane is carrying on a discussion here - including Abyssal Maw!

Go, Bill.  Rest.

Quote from: jdrakehHas anybody told you to fuck off and die beacause you like squirrels? I can't speak for the site (in fact, only Pundit can, really) but I welcome your participation here. I don't think your karma mechanic forces a certain style of play, rather, it is presented purely as an option, making a certain style of play possible (not mandatory).

I think in this I see your point. The issue is not the mission statement, which I believe it is reasonable to interpret, represents the owners stated objective. This is more about the community and the influence of a select few. We can sit around and all tell each other how reasonable we are while 2-3 people hunt down and attack new entrants to the site with a verve that could be described as fanatical. Again, we can say, "Well, if they were going to fit in, they could take it" or "If you do not like it, leave RPGSite". To me, these are undesirable solutions. I prefer to raise awareness and state my concerns of this trend upfront. Perhaps I am welcome but what about the next guy? This creates the trend of encouraging a certain type of person to become members. Let's face it, would you wade through a series of attacks because someone told you there was good discussion somewhere in there? Perhaps you would, but not me. I would invest my time where I am welcome.

And, as I have said, I am hoping to appeal to the community to police itself. There is no "or else" to that statement, just an appeal. I do believe that the majority of posters, given the choice, will respond with a desire for inclusion. However, yet another purpose of this thread was for me to get a feel for the current population. It seems that they desire this as well.

Again, I just used my games because I prefer not to single others out. You could, no doubt due to all the reviews you have done, provide better examples.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltAgain, we can say, "Well, if they were going to fit in, they could take it" or "If you do not like it, leave RPGSite". To me, these are undesirable solutions.

I agree 100%.

QuoteThis creates the trend of encouraging a certain type of person to become members.

Well, while I don't support it, Pundit has been pretty clear since taking over this site that it is intended to serve primarily as a community for fans of "traditional games" (whatever the fuck that means). So, while you and I may see deliberate exclusion as a bad thing, it's basically the site owner's mission in life. And, in the end, it is his site.

QuoteAgain, I just used my games because I prefer not to single others out. You could, no doubt due to all the reviews you have done, provide better examples.

I could cite examples of games that many people here consider to be navel-gazing, though I won't. Not because it's beneath me or anything, merely because I (like you) believe that such labeling -- on both sides of the argument -- is doing more to hurt our hobby than help it.

Quote from: James J SkachSee, now you made me go and reread Karma in SA!  Which is fine cause the pain meds will put me to sleep in a few anyway and it's a nice way cap off a just lovely day.

I think you overstate the effects of Karma.  As you state in the Iridium Lite section:

In a way, you straddle the fence here.  It's a player mechanic in that it can be invoked by the player in a meta-game way (re-rolling, automatic success, etc.). However - it's meant to represent the character's in-game aspect of Luck.

Jim,
I also go on with a lot of "At the discretion of the GM" kind of thing. Karm can be used to reroll failed checks, ensure success of checks or perform extraordinary feats. So, yes, it is still character oriented but it can effect plot by introducing hidden cinematic elements.

Quote from: James J SkachTo me, it's no different than many mechanics from many games that in execution use meta-game information but represent in-game...stuff.

So as I said in our late-night post-game discussion, it's a neat way to satisfy different play styles.  Best, it can be pretty easily discarded, from what I can tell.

I agree that is can be dropped with absolutely no effect. However, I suspect you are not considering the many effects to plot that Karma can generate. It is one of the points the "Old Guard" playtesters had issue with. One guy vowed never to play Iridium Lite as it has a meta-game element in it and he liked the direct connection all elements of Iridium Standard have to the in setting game;i.e. no meta-game rules. So, not everyone sees it like that.

Quote from: James J SkachHaving said all that, I think you are also overstating the effect of some (admittedly high profile) people here who might take an extreme stance on some aspect or another.  I am, so far, pretty confident in TheRPGSite folks to call bullshit on that stuff.

I have just seen people driven off by this crap and am a bit tired of it. I am voicing that view in the best way I can, with rhetoric and story. It is my passion. If e all get together and say "Hey, Bill, you are over reacting." Fine, I will contain myself. I still think the number of folks driven off is larger than a lot of people realize and would like them to think about it. Next time one of the kooks goes off, we will mass on them and maybe make a better showing. It looks like Wyrd has decided to give the site another go and that is the kind of thing I am hoping for...so, mission accomplished...for now.

Quote from: James J SkachI mean, my god...Luke Crane is carrying on a discussion here - including Abyssal Maw!

Yes, and look at that "discussion". I mean, really look at it. Not with RPGSite blinders on but like a guy, just wandering through wondering if he wants to give the site a try. Maybe you think it is peachy. I see Luke (and I don't particularly like his usual posting style either) being reasonable. I see a bunch  of loaded questions. I see a couple of truly interested parties asking reasonably worded questions. Again, Luke is handling a pretty antagonistic Q&A with a certain amount of poise. Mind, that does not seem to be his standard on this site.

Also, I am not even saying treat people better. I am saying, I hope folks will restrain themselves a bit with new members. Try and let them get above 5 posts, not drive them off because you happen to have a hate-on, you know, be decent. I don;t think that is asking too much especially from a site that touts calling people on BS presumably with logical argument.

Quote from: James J SkachGo, Bill.  Rest.

I will most likely go recarpet the family room.

Quote from: HinterWeltYes, and look at that "discussion". I mean, really look at it. Not with RPGSite blinders on but like a guy, just wandering through wondering if he wants to give the site a try. Maybe you think it is peachy. I see Luke (and I don't particularly like his usual posting style either) being reasonable. I see a bunch  of loaded questions. I see a couple of truly interested parties asking reasonably worded questions. Again, Luke is handling a pretty antagonistic Q&A with a certain amount of poise. Mind, that does not seem to be his standard on this site.

Honestly, while I think that the OP in that thread had good intentions, I have to agree with most of what you say here. The thing is, Luke is a pretty personable guy or, as he has characterized himself elsewhere, "an asshole's asshole" :rolleyes: If somebody wants to know something about BW, BE, or Luke in general, one just has to ask. Really.

He has his own forum for this.

People genuinely interested in honest dialogue would have already gone there, posted, and talked with the man. Here, he's basically been asked to do Q&A for people that either personally dislike him or dislike the things that he enjoys. He'll not likely sway the folks like Pundit into giving him or his games a fair shake, nor will those folks likely dial back the irrational hatred long enough to be open to that possibility.

The thread in question seems less like a Q&A session that it does an ambush. I commend Luke for his responses thus far.

Quote from: jdrakehHonestly, while I think that the OP in that thread had good intentions, I have to agree with most of what you say here. The thing is, Luke is a pretty personable guy or, as he has characterized himself elsewhere, "an asshole's asshole" :rolleyes: If somebody wants to know something about BW, BE, or Luke in general, one just has to ask. Really.

He has his own forum for this.

People genuinely interested in honest dialogue would have already gone there, posted, and talked with the man. Here, he's basically been asked to do Q&A for people that either personally dislike him or dislike the things that he enjoys. He'll not likely sway the folks like Pundit into giving him or his games a fair shake, nor will those folks likely dial back the irrational hatred long enough to be open to that possibility.

The thread in question seems less like a Q&A session that it does an ambush. I commend Luke for his responses thus far.

Ironically, an ambush requested by, none other than Luke himself. I mean, he was being his usual charming self in another thread and when asked a couple of questions, offered to answer anything in another thread if Analq started one.

Are the questions loaded?  Sure.  Have you seen Luke post here?  He's a big boy, he can handle himself (and I'm sure he does :rimshot: ). And VBWryde seems to be able to.  In fact, Luke harshes on him for his post on how to bring peace.

But I guess my overall point would be: as bad a it all could be, instead look how it turned out.  And there's a reason it turned out that way - because the kind of self policing that could lead to your fear instead lead to a decent discussion.

And yeah, I think it is a decent discussion.

Quote from: James J SkachIronically, an ambush requested by, none other than Luke himself.

He might have requested the thread, I don't think that he requested the BS questions.

QuoteHe's a big boy, he can handle himself. . .

I never suggested otherwise.

Quote. . . because the kind of self policing that could lead to your fear instead lead to a decent discussion.

I agree with Bill. I think that you have some blinders on. People wandering in from the outside, I think, will see that thread for what it is -- a bunch of bitter, self-righteous, assholes trying to bait Luke into acting like an asshole so that they can crow about the Swine Conspiracy.

Well, we are a bunch of master baiters around here...

What's with me and the monkey spanking?  Too much time in the hospital, I tells ya..

Could be. I might even be one of the baiters.  I do want serious answers to questions not directly related to BW or BE.  Since he came on here, essentially, as a defender of the faith (that is, in less snarky terms, to defend the Forge), I think it's perfectly reasonalbe to ask questions that would, depending on how they were answered, put some of "the war" to rest.

At least, I hoped that's how it would happen.

Alas, I think we have a situation where neither side will blink.  What I mean is that, for Luke to answer "Yeah, Edwards can be an ass, brain damaged was just that, and GNS isn't what makes my motor run, though aspects of it do help me design," would give too much of the store away.

No different than pundit doing the opposite would be the same for him.