Quote from: Lunamancer;916200The thing is, your follow-up questions imply an expectation of logic that is quite illogical.

Food source, for instance. Suppose there is none. The player characters are there, aren't they? That would seem to demonstrate that there need be no correlation between food sources and wanderers. Even if the wandering monsters in question are of strictly animal, or animal-like nature and care only about food, the mere fact that they are "wandering" suggests that they haven't found food yet. Until, of course, the scrumptious player characters come along.

And co-existence? The old, finger-wagging school of thought on dungeon ecology was that the dungeon ought to be in some sort of equilibrium state. The precise advice I've seen printed was to try and imagine what would happen in your dungeon left alone for a few months to see if it makes any sense. That's great advice, up until the "to see if it makes any sense" part. Because "equilibrium", I will grant, may be a realistic state of things, it's not a real state of things. Better to see what happens if your dungeon is left alone for a month, make a note of any conflicts that emerge, and then go live. Now NPCs and monsters will have some pretty strong, clear-cut motives.

As for rhyme or reason, I've always felt wandering monsters served a long list of purposes that make a good game. Those who have tossed them out as adolescent then go scrambling for ways to compensate.

1) Wandering Monsters are part of the "character sheet" of the locale. PCs have skills that make them different from the rest of the party. Locales have "wandering monsters" that differentiate them from other locales. In their absence, GMs try to compensate for the lack of atmosphere with long-winded narration full of cliches, frequently involving the word "bustling." It's one thing to describe a rowdy tavern scene. It's another thing for there to be a random table that includes things like, "Patron accidentally bumps into you causing you to spill your drink. Your CHR is at -2 until you get cleaned up."

2) Wandering Monsters are a pacing mechanism. If PCs are spending too much time arguing, or too much time planning, or too much time walking in circles, the periodic appearance of wandering monsters maintains a sense of urgency to move forward. I've heard some use the tool "Whenever the game gets dull, have ninjas attack." Well, wandering monsters fill those shoes quite well.

3) They provide springboards into further adventure. Whether it's the harlot table with their random chance for information, a group of fanatics recruiting for their cause (or for someone to kidnap for ritualistic sacrifice), or even just surviving a random dragon attack in the wilderness and then realizing where there's a dragon, there is treasure. A lot of GMs flat-out ask the players what they want to see in the game. Of course, people are often unhappy getting what they wish for. Seeing how players react to odd, random encounters clues the GM in as to what will in reality engage the players.

4) There's a lot of talk about "optimal" vs "sub-optimal" play. If a player can derive a formula and crunch some numbers about the most efficient way to move forward, that is a problem. Your game has essentially been "solved" and it's all merely academic at that point. A lot of GMs have turned to giving XP, or "Fate points" or some other rewards for players who admirably suffer some sub-optimal play to better role-play the characters. Well, wandering monsters provide a way of shaking up the status-quo so there ain't no such thing as optimal play. There are only choices and trade-offs and different paths you can go down, so you don't have to hand out Scooby snacks to reward players for doing what they should have been doing all along--playing their characters.

5) It's part of a dynamic world. This one may be more specific to how I run campaigns. If you randomly encounter a gang of bandits twice in the same country side, chances are it's going to be the same gang. (Or maybe there are two rival gangs.) This means your actions in one random encounter may influence how the next random encounter goes. This gives the players the feeling that this really is their world, their choices do matter, and the things they do, positive or negative, have further reaching consequences than the current session. Even when it's not part of The Big Story.

Sacrificing logic for game mechanic purposes is certainly a much visited and accepted approach. Depends on the priorities of the group as always.

Quote from: rgrove0172;916222Sacrificing logic for game mechanic purposes is certainly a much visited and accepted approach. Depends on the priorities of the group as always.

No. What I think hes saying is that theres more than one possible logic to a dungeon and wandering monsters.

They just moved in or the place is in a constant state of flux.

They were brought there.

They are part of the dungeon ecology.

Something drew them there

They dont have supplies. Hence why they are ranging out and raiding.

Guards and patrolls.

Just normal inhabitants on their way from point A to B.

Couriers and messengers either delivering or leaving after delivery.

Something thats been awakened after an unknown time in stasis.

and so on.

The guys who built the place have placed one-way transporter pads in key places out in the wild... the dungeon has a constant influx of new inhabitants who eat/are eaten by the current ones, but generally everyone is quite hungry when the PCs show up.

One megadungeon in Tunnels & Trolls was built by the Dwarf god Gristlegrim who uses it for entertainment. He stocks with assorted monsters and treasures and sends in adventurers who he watches as they make their way through. The dungeon doesn't really need a "logical" ecology, its background dictates that the ecology as such is pretty random. Several other T&T dungeons have also been similarly created and stocked by powerful, and often mad, wizards.

It is fairly easy to write a themed wandering monster table. An orc mine is likely to have orcs and goblins of course, as well as various slimes, jellies, oozes and puddings, those get every where, giant rats, bats, and other vermin, that and mysterious sounds and lights off in the distance should cover it. Other monsters can be keyed to particular locations.

For the wilderness I just think about what creatures inhabit that region or type of terrain and how rare or common they should be. The mountains near a dragon's lair might have quite a high chance of encountering the dragon, or encountering adventurers bent on stealing the dragon's gold.

Quote from: Omega;916269No. What I think hes saying is that theres more than one possible logic to a dungeon and wandering monsters.

They just moved in or the place is in a constant state of flux.

Yeah, I think I could have been clearer when I said equilibrium may be realistic but it's not real. You are correct, that there are many possibilities that are logical. The equilibrium one is sort of the gravitational center of all the others. But I contend that it itself is actually not among the logical possibilities. This is contrary to the finger-waggers logic who believe the only correct solution is the one I've ruled out.

QuoteThey were brought there.

They are part of the dungeon ecology.

Something drew them there

They dont have supplies. Hence why they are ranging out and raiding.

Guards and patrolls.

Just normal inhabitants on their way from point A to B.

Couriers and messengers either delivering or leaving after delivery.

Something thats been awakened after an unknown time in stasis.

and so on.

Looks like you have the makings of a random table here, sort of a wandering monster companion.

Quote from: Lunamancer;916307Looks like you have the makings of a random table here, sort of a wandering monster companion.

The Wandering Monster Wandering Reason Table. :cool:

If I am designing a dungeon using random tables, I roll up the D6 list of random monsters and then use them and the rest of the random rolls to make sense of WTF has been happening in the dungeon.

Why are 3 skeletons roaming an orc lair?

Hmm...maybe they are not roaming, but following a preset route at preset times and the orcs know to avoid them. Perhaps the skeletons are from the original dungeon creators and the orcs are just recent squatters?

Or maybe they are Orc Skeletons? AKA, there is some weird magic here that necro-rises orcs who die in this place?

FOR ME, its very interesting to imagine the WHY behind the wandering monsters. BUT this is why I have only 6 possible wanderers per area. It's easy to work my brain around 6 unique wanderers in a zone.

Quote from: Omega;916315The Wandering Monster Wandering Reason Table. :cool:

Absolutely.

As a bit of an aside, one thing that gives me perspective on Gygax's D&D is looking at Gygax's later fantasy work. When I see certain themes repeated over and over again, I find it gives me perspective on what he was thinking when it came to a particular aspect of D&D. One such later work (to bring things back to the main point) was the Lejendary Adventure RPG. The wandering monster tables in there, particularly for encounters with humans, does give you some idea of what they're doing there (in some instances multiple reasons that are generated randomly). I feel having that reason included on a table really does add a lot. Here's an example:

Holy man, looking for persons who need to be helped and/or saved and put on the right track; 25% chance for a rogue impersonating this role.

Quote from: Omega;916315The Wandering Monster Wandering Reason Table. :cool:

Oh now, now it is a meta-gaming thread. LOL :eek:

Quote from: Spinachcat;916321
FOR ME, its very interesting to imagine the WHY behind the wandering monsters. BUT this is why I have only 6 possible wanderers per area. It's easy to work my brain around 6 unique wanderers in a zone.

One of the modules I have stands out. I wish I could remember which one. I think they use 6 or 8 entries on the table.  But one of the wandering monsters is a captain. When you reach the captain's office, if you killed him as a wandering monster, he isn't there. And if you didn't kill him but did fight him, now you can't try to bluff your way past him, since he knows you.

Quote from: Tod13;916371One of the modules I have stands out. I wish I could remember which one. I think they use 6 or 8 entries on the table.  But one of the wandering monsters is a captain. When you reach the captain's office, if you killed him as a wandering monster, he isn't there. And if you didn't kill him but did fight him, now you can't try to bluff your way past him, since he knows you.

I've seen similar things in a few modules. Several include, I guess you could say, "unique" encounters on the table, which stipulates these results only happen once. Subsequent rolls on the table within that range default to some other entry instead.

Another way of doing it is instead of writing up a custom table, jot down the relevant notes on index cards, shuffle them, and draw. Unique encounters are used up and removed from the deck, common encounters are shuffled back in. There may even be actions players take as part of The Big Story that add new cards to the shuffle.

Quote from: Lunamancer;916372I've seen similar things in a few modules. Several include, I guess you could say, "unique" encounters on the table, which stipulates these results only happen once. Subsequent rolls on the table within that range default to some other entry instead.

Another way of doing it is instead of writing up a custom table, jot down the relevant notes on index cards, shuffle them, and draw. Unique encounters are used up and removed from the deck, common encounters are shuffled back in. There may even be actions players take as part of The Big Story that add new cards to the shuffle.

As I recall, for this module, all the monsters in the table were unique. It made sense for the module. For a small community (less than one or two score total), how many wandering monsters are there going to be?

The more I think, the more I like Omega's Wander Monster Wandering Reasons Table. You could make a generic fits (almost) any module list. You roll, get the reason the monster is there, and then select an appropriate monster from the module to use.

1. Looking for food
2. Looking for lost
3. On patrol
4. Lost
5. Scouting (monster is not from dungeon)
6. Serial killer looking for next victim. Roll again for excuse for being in dungeon.

Have you ever closely read the Orc description from the 1st Ed Monster Manual?

QuoteOrc tribes are fiercely competitive, and when they meet it is 75% likely that they will fight each other unless a strong leader (such as a wizard, evil priest, evil lord) with sufficient force behind him is on hand to control the orcs... If the orcs are not in their lair there is a 20% chance they will be escorting a train of 1-6 carts and 10-60 slave bearers bringing supplies and loot to their chief or to a stronger orc tribe... Orc lairs are underground 75% of the time, in an above ground village 25% of the time... If the lair is underground, there is a 50% chance that there will be from 2-5 ogres living with the orcs. If the lair is above ground it will be a rude village of wooden huts protected by a ditch, rampart, and log palisade. The village will have from 1-4 watch towers and single gate. There will be 1 catapult and 1 ballista for each 100 male orcs (round to the nearest hundred).

If you use this, a random encounter with orcs paints a pretty vivid picture of how they fit into the world logically, what they're doing, and there's got to be at least a half dozen adventure hooks right there.

Wandering monsters are always logical, at some level, depending on the seriousness of the game. They never just "appear"... although I've played with GM's who wrote into their game worlds that monsters actually do teleport into the world randomly. But those are explicit events that then proceed logically after that.

If I have a random encounter table, and I'm playing and even semi-serious/detailed mode, I have the encounter appear at a distance, and figure out what happens, such as whether they actually meet the players, where they are and were and what they were doing, what traces and changes they made to the setting, etc. That way the PCs get a fair chance to detect and take steps to avoid or intercept, prepare, etc., and things in general remain logical. Otherwise the world can have paradoxes and things that make no sense, even in simple terms of time and space.

I like logic well enough, but I figure my dungeons fall more into a game logic state. I don't need a reason for every critter being in each room, planned with access to fresh water, sewage, and the monster ATM. I'm not designing a real city, but a game one. Every game glosses over some things, or it would be pure tedium to play. That said, I'm not likely to have a Sphinx guarding a room in a kobolds' cave system. Unless it was in Australia. All bets are off in Australia. Oh, and in deep oceanic waters where no light reaches and critters develop into crazy monsters of all shapes, sizes and self illuminations. Huh, guess there are cases of crazy ecologies developing in isolation after all. Perhaps even some accepted examples in classic fantasy literature, my precious. But those should be the exception and not the norm, to my thinking.