Since V:tM has very limited choices which the Camarilla are pretty much Protestants and Atheists while the Sabbat are hardline Catholics, I noticed there isn't any room for Vampires who are of non-Christian faiths such as the other Abrahamic faiths like Judahism and Islam, but also Pre-Christian 'Pagan' faiths like Roman-Greek, Egyptian, Norse, Celtic, Slavic, Basque, and also even Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc which the biggest problem that VtM was written not only in a heavily Christian-centric worldview but also Eurocentric as well which is a factor that never properly covered those topics without appropriating them.

or basically I was wondering how a "Circle of Crone" type sect would work for Pagan Vampires who don't belong in either the Camarilla or Sabbat well especially Vampires who don't buy into the Noddest myth because of it's Abrahamic roots?

One of the many topics with the same subject matter. You won't find much wod fans on this forum

Anyway, there might be some paganism in the Gangrel clan. Maybe the Lhiannan bloodline?

I think the Bahari or the Path of Lilith have some simularities with the Circle of the Crone philosophy. Even though Lilith is abrahamic.

Again I am not a fan, but Requiem handles this much better. There is no absolute truth, any myth might be true.

Nope, wrong. They are all there. First clans and sects I beelined to. It took me time to come back to appreciate the Camarilla, Anarch, Sabbat dynamic.

Ashirra, an entire muslim vampire sect, renaming multiple favorite clans. The shifted clan dynamic, and emphasis on humanity, community, & faith changes things heavily. Book: Veil of Night.

Laibon, sub-Saharan African vampire sect, renaming a few favorite clans and introducing several more. Introduce new faith systems that reshape vampiric potential behavior and different interpersonal dynamic with kine community. Book: Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom

Andu, Gangrel, & Asian steppes vampires, mixed with Kuei Jin encounters, along the Silk Road and Mongol Conquest. Book: Blood & Silk.

S & SE Asian Cainites, Ravnos, Nagaraja, etc. Expanded over several books, notably following clan and bloodline info.

Kuei Jin, hungry ghosts. Another completely different cosmology (only the Ashirra hold onto Abrahamic ideas), but for a completely different non-Cainite vampire. These hungry ghosts holds various competing sects around Asia, mainly Quincunx China, Green Courts Korea, House Bishamon & Genji Japan, Thunder Courts in India, and Golden Courts in SE Asia — all competing sects like Camarilla & Sabbat are to each other. Books: Kindred of the East, Heresies of the Way (lost dharmas book), 1000 Hells...

Followers of Set clan are ancient Egyptian mythology. Books: Followers of Set clanbook

And then there's the Dark Ages material, several of which cover the ages of paganism, Roman empires, West & East, and IIRC talk of which Cainites influenced Viking Scandinavia, the ancient Gangrel monstrosity of Russian lands, etc.

Is there any non-Christian cultural thing in particular about oWoD you wanted to do?

Yep, oWoD was pretty comprehensive about turning every realworld faith into a splat-worthy stereotype occult superhero philosophy.

Quote from: TristramEvans;826699Yep, oWoD was pretty comprehensive about turning every realworld faith into a splat-worthy stereotype occult superhero philosophy.

I might have missed some Oceania stuff, but it's likely out there. Hey, they even covered Nunnehi, Native American fairie/changelings. Pretty thorough!

Quote from: Cryptofblood;826667Since V:tM has very limited choices which the Camarilla are pretty much Protestants and Atheists while the Sabbat are hardline Catholics, I noticed there isn't any room for Vampires who are of non-Christian faiths such as the other Abrahamic faiths like Judahism and Islam, but also Pre-Christian 'Pagan' faiths like Roman-Greek, Egyptian, Norse, Celtic, Slavic, Basque, and also even Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc which the biggest problem that VtM was written not only in a heavily Christian-centric worldview but also Eurocentric as well which is a factor that never properly covered those topics without appropriating them.

or basically I was wondering how a "Circle of Crone" type sect would work for Pagan Vampires who don't belong in either the Camarilla or Sabbat well especially Vampires who don't buy into the Noddest myth because of it's Abrahamic roots?

I have, in addition to V:tM, also Changeling: The Dreaming and Scion.
For the Mythology-based Religions, i'd read up on them in Scion or elsewhere if necessary, and draw concepts and ideas from there.
Then, i'd make some new clans, representing the Pantheons or even certain concepts within each Pantheon, and give them Disciplines that fit their concept or themes instead of those in the Camarilla or Sabbat.

If need be, i'd also mix in the Arts from Changeling, and make them fuelled by Blood instead of Glamour and Bunks, effectively turning them into Disciplines instead (i'd ignore the cantrip references to "Realm", as they'd be able to affect anyone in line of sight, perhaps with a restriction on distance as well).
Oh, i'd also break up the Thaumaturgy paths into separate Disciplines, to have more Diciplines to choose between for designing the Pagan Clans.

EDIT:
Seems you have already gotten more competent advice already.
^_^

I've sometimes thought that perhaps Noddism is something almost unique to the Sabbat. The Sabbat was formed in Europe, in the middle ages, by relatively young vampires. They all grew up and were mortals in a strongly Christian culture, so it stands to reason that the religious cult that is the Sabbat would be a Christian one.

The Camarilla, on the other hand, was created by elders, who in the middle ages likely included many vampires whose mortal days predate Christianity. So the Camarilla became secular, to avoid conflict between the various forms of paganism along with the Christianity of its members. So perhaps among the Camarilla, who aren't really that concerned with the idea of Caine or Antediluvians, paganism is common and accepted - especially by the very old or very young.

Quote from: Opaopajr;826697Laibon, sub-Saharan African vampire sect, renaming a few favorite clans and introducing several more. Introduce new faith systems that reshape vampiric potential behavior and different interpersonal dynamic with kine community. Book: Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom

I think the Laibon are based on "Darkest African" stereotypes most likely not to mention the book's tendacy of pointing their mythology as 'wrong' while the white colonialists one as "right" which is the Noddest mythology.

Quote from: Opaopajr;826697Kuei Jin, hungry ghosts. Another completely different cosmology (only the Ashirra hold onto Abrahamic ideas), but for a completely different non-Cainite vampire. These hungry ghosts holds various competing sects around Asia, mainly Quincunx China, Green Courts Korea, House Bishamon & Genji Japan, Thunder Courts in India, and Golden Courts in SE Asia — all competing sects like Camarilla & Sabbat are to each other. Books: Kindred of the East, Heresies of the Way (lost dharmas book), 1000 Hells...

This is my favorite which the Kuie-Jinn and the entire "Kindred of the East" setting are based on racist exoticism of East Asia which the west has a habit merging East Asia into one Pan-Asia without regarding and respecting the cultures that it originally belonged to, not to mention everything else about the Kuie-Jinn are based on racist stereotypes of not only Asians but also their culture as well even getting their religion and mythology wrong as well. I think everything else can be explained this article.

Quote from: Opaopajr;826697Followers of Set clan are ancient Egyptian mythology. Books: Followers of Set clanbook

The Followers of Set has really nothing to do with Ancient Egyptian mythology, but more like they ripped it straight out of Conan the Barbarian (since when it had to do with Snakes?) and appropriated Egyptian imagery along with it and not to mention delegitimizing the Egyptian religion saying that Set is actually just some Antediluvian while the Noddest mythology reigns supreme as the "truth" atop of that.

Quote from: Opaopajr;826697Is there any non-Christian cultural thing in particular about oWoD you wanted to do?

Well first of all, the Kuie-Jinn, Laibon, probably everything listed in this post are all based on "Captain Ethnic" stereotypes which pretty much none of them I want to use due to it's racist roots. Maybe I'm pretty much on my own on this I guess....

The truth is, there is so many problematic elements in the cWoD it's hard to count...

Have you read those works, or just speak of your "received knowledge" of them?

Kindred of the East very much has internal conflict between the courts/sects and it is very much not a pan-East Asian homogeny. The hatred towards the Japanese houses is played up, the Quincunx (Chinese) patronizing bigotry to "heretical dharmas" and S & SE Asian kindred is quite present — even when it is S. Asia where the basis of the cosmology of kuei jin salvation derives. The list goes on and on, and that's just one of the groups you dismissed out of hand.

Again, put away what you think you know, or what others fed you, and learn for yourself.

You know, if you're not crazy about the idea of a setting where the Abrahamic mythology of Eden, Adam and Eve, Caine and Abel etc. is mostly Objectively Right, I dare say Vampire: the Masquerade might not be the right game for you.

And truth be told, Requiem (at least 1e, haven't read 2e/B&S) has a Christian covenant (Roman Catholic, really, peculiar vampiric heresy notwithstanding) and sort of catch-all "pagan" covenant. The covenant books offer some variety within the covenants; I felt Crone fared better but Lancea was sort of all over the place with the Protestant and Jewish and Muslim sub-covenants.

Still, I feel Requiem, by dint of not being wedded to an overarching apocalyptic metaplot, gives me more leeway to come up with original stuff. I love having only a few clans but I wish we had a ton of covenants.

Quote from: Opaopajr;826734Have you read those works, or just speak of your "received knowledge" of them?

Kindred of the East very much has internal conflict between the courts/sects and it is very much not a pan-East Asian homogeny. The hatred towards the Japanese houses is played up, the Quincunx (Chinese) patronizing bigotry to "heretical dharmas" and S & SE Asian kindred is quite present — even when it is S. Asia where the basis of the cosmology of kuei jin salvation derives. The list goes on and on, and that's just one of the groups you dismissed out of hand.

Again, put away what you think you know, or what others fed you, and learn for yourself.

I think you're still missing the point that the very existence of Kuei Jin is still racist and I doubt you even read that article I've linked to explaining why.

For example, I think the better alternative is to have Masquerade vampires in East Asia while the Mythological Accurate "Ghost Immortals" or "Gui-Xian" can be the Kuie-Jinn's replacement.

Quote from: The Butcher;826743You know, if you're not crazy about the idea of a setting where the Abrahamic mythology of Eden, Adam and Eve, Caine and Abel etc. is mostly Objectively Right, I dare say Vampire: the Masquerade might not be the right game for you.

And truth be told, Requiem (at least 1e, haven't read 2e/B&S) has a Christian covenant (Roman Catholic, really, peculiar vampiric heresy notwithstanding) and sort of catch-all "pagan" covenant. The covenant books offer some variety within the covenants; I felt Crone fared better but Lancea was sort of all over the place with the Protestant and Jewish and Muslim sub-covenants.

Still, I feel Requiem, by dint of not being wedded to an overarching apocalyptic metaplot, gives me more leeway to come up with original stuff. I love having only a few clans but I wish we had a ton of covenants.

First of all I disagree with the first statement since I think Masquerade can be changed. Or maybe you're only confirming one of the major problems I have with Masquerade but however as for the 'alternative'....

Of course as much there's elements in Requiem I like (the covenants, etc) but still it also has alot of problems such as the Vampires there are much weaker (since the disciplines are less combat sufficient), Fog of Eternity, Predator's Taint, Danse Macabre, and alot of elements make it even more unforgivable than Masquerade is by comparison. Basically I'm ignoring Requiem and I only have Masquerade to work with.

I think you might have to make it all up.  If you base it on any real world cultures/ideas/reality, then you will be appropriating and exploiting.  Hmmm, did they also appropriate abrahamic religions et al?

Well damn, the whole thing is a black and white shit pile of appropriations.  Monte Cook's WoD might be a bit better, as it is from his imagination (but he is white, and a blonde a that.  Oh no, he is thinner than he used to be.  That can't be good!).

Is this a troll statement in a troll thread?  I'm not even sure myself.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;826727

Can you mention anything at all within fiction and games, that isn't based on stereotypes?

Sure, a very few things here and there breaks stereotypes, but the first breaking of stereotypes usually result in exotification.
The second breaking of stereotypes, away from exotification, usually results in a mix of appropriation and mis-appropriation.
After that, the following step is actually education, like ... 25 years ago, people in the west used to think "sushi" meant "raw fish", but today people generally know that raw fish is named something else, and that sushi is a dish with rice that may or may not include raw fish.

Essentially, stereotypes, exotification and appropriation is just stages towards actually getting truly familiar with different cultures.

Why do people play Vampire at all?
Vampires are exotic, at least to begin with.
No matter whether they are "west-based" or "east-based", they are exotic.
Sure, it is also an escape from reality, but so are D&D, Lord of the Rings, or any game within the supers- or mecha-genres.
So why Vampires specifically?
Exotism.

If one should really hardline the "not playing as anything exotic"-thing, then no one could play as anything except possibly a version of themselves.
But that would also be disastrous as the act of playing as something one is not is often something that is required for anyone to grow as living being, to develop empathy, to see things from someone else's perspective, and so on.

Someone may say, that exotification is not the same as the thing being exotic.
But to the one doing the exotification, the exotified thing is indeed exotic.
"Exotic" is a definition very much based on opinions, and once something stops being exotic, it also tends to get less interesting.

Your real problem is that you're trying to analyse an RPG, which usually are a bit of a kitchen sink of popculture, and demand it is Objectively Right According To Your Truth, rather than accept it as a fictional world with fictional beings and fictional laws of the universe. It's not like vampires aren't overall stereotypes based on Dracula and Anne Rice.

Best of luck in making My Little Vampire: Drinking is Magic

With words like "appropriating" and "problematic" I doubt there will any actual conversation going on, but you do know that once you decide to include Caine and Lilith in a vampiric cosmology and include mythical places like Enoch, that you're "getting wrong" all the Abrahamic Faiths and all of Classical and European history too, right?

In other words, since vampires aren't real, you're stomping all over everyone's reality when you weave them into the backdrop of everything.

WoD doesn't even begin to limit itself to culturally accurate depictions of vampires from different european cultures, so is there some reason it should limit itself to culturally accurate depictions of vampires from non-european cultures?