Quote from: Cryptofblood;826746I think you're still missing the point that the very existence of Kuei Jin is still racist and I doubt you even read that article I've linked to explaining why.

For example, I think the better alternative is to have Masquerade vampires in East Asia while the Mythological Accurate "Ghost Immortals" or "Gui-Xian" can be the Kuie-Jinn's replacement.

Oh, I read it before. Thought it was crap then, think it's crap now. All of WW oWoD stuff is based on hodgepodge hearsay mythology spoken ex cathedra — that's the point, all the stubborn elders think their interpretation is the one and only truth and everything else is dismissible crap.

That friction — between old & young, between East & West, between Europe & everyone else, between competing perspectives of truth, etc. — is the point.

I also think your question here is completely disingenuous because if you already knew of these WW creations and still speak in your OP as if they didn't exist, then you are obviously trolling. Either a) you didn't know and I was informing you now, or b) you did know and dismissed it out of hand, and thus spoiling for your expected answer already in your head. And if it is b), and you already knew you are going to have to create your own interpretation of non-Christian vampires from scratch, then the whole point of this OP is, "Guess what I'm thinking! Nuh-uh, didn't guess right!"

You are otherwise insisting on something that you know is not true (that WW did not create non-Christian vampire material), in order to have posters here dance about and entertain you I presume. And as adults many of us here could really care less about your feelings on this matter, versus the fact those products do exist. That's an issue of existence versus perceived value. You have your viewpoint, that's nice, and still no one will care until you actually make and run your own RPG campaign.

So why are you wasting all of our time? We already have a forum to hash out your own creations ("Design, Development, & Gameplay"). Go there, drop Storyteller system like a bad habit, and go be productive already.

Quote from: Opaopajr;826883You are otherwise insisting on something that you know is not true (that WW did not create non-Christian vampire material), in order to have posters here dance about and entertain you I presume.

Well, since making any complaints about WW on purple will get the OP icepicked, fishing for grognards.txt quotes is all that's left.

But that's so sad and lame compared to making published stuff your own (or making your own stuff) and running it. That's like bitter non-gamer territory, except out in the cold from their old clique. I'd like to give some benefit of the doubt, hopefully to stop shitty old forum habits (i.e. passive-aggressive bickering topics) and actually create playable material.

This is a whole new forum. Go collaborate & build something beautiful...

Quote from: The Butcher;826743You know, if you're not crazy about the idea of a setting where the Abrahamic mythology of Eden, Adam and Eve, Caine and Abel etc. is mostly Objectively Right, I dare say Vampire: the Masquerade might not be the right game for you.

Agreed. Masquerade has a lot of things going on, but the central myth is abrahamic. I don't think Masquerade is racist. That's just pc bullshit made up by quickly offended people. But Requiem might fit better.

Quote from: The Butcher;826743And truth be told, Requiem (at least 1e, haven't read 2e/B&S) has a Christian covenant (Roman Catholic, really, peculiar vampiric heresy notwithstanding) and sort of catch-all "pagan" covenant. The covenant books offer some variety within the covenants; I felt Crone fared better but Lancea was sort of all over the place with the Protestant and Jewish and Muslim sub-covenants.

The LS covenant was just bad. They kinda retconned it in the 2nd edition removing the muslim and jewish roots. Those groups (and all the crone religions) deserve an own covenant. Same goes for all the Carthian ideologies.

Quote from: The Butcher;826743Still, I feel Requiem, by dint of not being wedded to an overarching apocalyptic metaplot, gives me more leeway to come up with original stuff. I love having only a few clans but I wish we had a ton of covenants.

You have some more in Danse Macabre. Most of them are a bit arty farty though.

You guys got trolled!

Rpg.net forum invasion..?

LOL

There's a racist from RPGnet appropriating me! Where are my 2/2 First Strike White Knight cards for me to play?!?!?!? zomg!!!

I've said it before, and I will probably say it again ...

  As a practicing Catholic and a student and devotee of medieval theology and philosophy, I could get a lot of mileage about complaining about "appropriation" and "erasure" in the hobby's two biggest games--D&D and Vampire.
 
  But I reject a lot of the premises, although I reserve the right to be annoyed when they try to do something with Christianity and get it wrong.

Most of the reason that the Year of the Lotus is lambasted is not because it doesn't fit foreign mythology, but because every description of a foreign culture was very badly researched and exoticized. The books even state that the theme is "exoticism" despite the fact that PCs are supposed to be natives of the countries the books are set in. There's also the whole "Asia is another planet" meme that informed the books. The shapeshifters are organized into a hegemony found nowhere else on the planet, the vampires and changelings are completely different entities, and the local technocrats are schismatic.

In my opinion, the East should be treated just like the West: everyone is basically human and no amount of guilt-ridden traditions will change basic human psychology. This should be obvious to anyone who has watched one of those "I moved to a foreign country" channels on Youtube. We don't need special snowflakes to make a foreign country interesting.

Here's my opinion of the splats in general:

• Kindred of the East: Just make an Asian version of Ebony Kingdom and call it a day. That said, Ebony Kingdom was just as horribly racist and badly researched.
• Hengeyokai: There are so many rich cultures you could make a dozen new werewolf tribes rather than consigning the entirety of East Asia to the Stargazers and Hakken. The whole "changing breeds working together" thing should really have been exported back to the core rules rather than using it as an excuse for orientalism.
• Eight Million Dreams: We couldn't just have regular Gallain why exactly?

Quote from: tenbones;826948LOL

There's a racist from RPGnet appropriating me! Where are my 2/2 First Strike White Knight cards for me to play?!?!?!? zomg!!!

Nobody tapped 2 white mana. But the card you are looking for is Black Knight, since he has Protection Versus White.

So basically Masquerade portrays other cultures too stereotypical and Requiem is too low-powered?

What would you settle for? A high-powered vampire game with a realistic portrayal of other cultures and beliefs?

Maybe you should stick with the Masquerade rules and use the Requiem setting? Replace generation with blood potency? You could mine Ancient Mysteries, Ancient Bloodlines and maybe Wicked Dead for some vampire cultural info that isn´t western?

Personally I find those books really dry, but it might be something you are looking for. I like the plot hooks in Ancient Mysteries, but I could do without a lot of the info. My nwod issues. Too much info and not the right kind of info.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;826955Most of the reason that the Year of the Lotus is lambasted is not because it doesn't fit foreign mythology, but because every description of a foreign culture was very badly researched and exoticized. The books even state that the theme is "exoticism" despite the fact that PCs are supposed to be natives of the countries the books are set in.

Well, seriously, they couldn't even manage an accurate take on Britain in Changeling, no reason to assume they'd do any better with orientalism. That said, its "The World of Darkness", which is an easy catch-all explanation that things are whatever they want them to be, and what White Wolf wanted them to be was appealing to teenage Hot Topic customers.

I don't share most of the OP's particular concerns, but WW's been known to screw up in this particular arena in the past (can we say WoD:Gypsies), but the it also hit at least one home run (Charnel Houses of Europe: The Shoah). In any case, I don't see much to be gained from this particular line of argumentation.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;826746First of all I disagree with the first statement since I think Masquerade can be changed. Or maybe you're only confirming one of the major problems I have with Masquerade but however as for the 'alternative'....

Not saying you can't! You can also run a courtroom drama set in Tokugawa Japan using OD&D, but it wouldn't be my first choice, as too much tinkering might be required. I like tinkering with games but replacing certain fundamental assumptions can be a PITA.

If you excise the Caine monomyth, and leave Generation in place, you'll have to explain just who or what was the First Generation.

Also, Humanity and Virtues have some very strongly implied Christian values, what with the "hierarchy of sins" and all. If you're dismantling the Judaeo-Christian backbone of the game you might want to address this.

Substituting Kuei-Jin for regular old vamps is easy-peasy. Pennangalan as Korean Tzimisce, anyone?

Anything else you might want to address?

Quote from: The Butcher;826971Tzimisce

Tzimisce is racist, nationalist and colonialist because it is appropriating the Armenian nickname of a Byzantine emperor and applying it to Slavic vampires. Statutory Genocide may or may not be involved.

Quote from: CRKrueger;826975Tzimisce is racist, nationalist and colonialist because it is appropriating the Armenian nickname of a Byzantine emperor and applying it to Slavic vampires. Statutory Genocide may or may not be involved.

Indeed, where are the proper Wąpierze, or barring that, why are Slavic vampires twisted and ugly - looking? Dracula was Romanian, for crying out loud!

In fact, as a Pole, I am quite offended by the appropriation of Slavic myths by Byron, Polidori and Stoker.

And vampire's dislike for garlic and onions? Obvious anti - Slavism and anti - Semitism, as both vegetables feature heavily in both Jewish and Slavic cousines.

#RealVampiresAreSlav #StopStealingSlavCulture

Quote from: Rincewind1;826979why are Slavic vampires twisted and ugly - looking? Dracula was Romanian, for crying out loud!

"His face was a strong, a very strong, aquiline, with high bridge of the thin nose and peculiarly arched nostrils, with lofty domed forehead, and hair growing scantily round the temples but profusely elsewhere. His eyebrows were very massive, almost meeting over the nose, and with bushy hair that seemed to curl in its own profusion. The mouth, so far as I could see it under the heavy moustache, was fixed and rather cruel-looking, with peculiarly sharp white teeth.

These protruded over the lips, whose remarkable ruddiness showed astonishing vitality in a man of his years. For the rest, his ears were pale, and at the tops extremely pointed. The chin was broad and strong, and the cheeks firm though thin. The general effect was one of extraordinary pallor.

Hitherto I had noticed the backs of his hands as they lay on his knees in the firelight, and they had seemed rather white and fine. But seeing them now close to me, I could not but notice that they were rather coarse, broad, with squat fingers. Strange to say, there were hairs in the centre of the palm. The nails were long and fine, and cut to a sharp point. As the Count leaned over me and his hands touched me, I could not repress a shudder. It may have been that his breath was rank, but a horrible feeling of nausea came over me, which, do what I would, I could not conceal. "