I'm curious to hear more about the state of the current Camarilla, because I always favored the Camarilla the most. Unfortunately, I also always thought that the Camarilla should have been more diverse, with more Clans present than in the canon. It looks like they moved in the opposite direction though by removing Clans. They seem to be including the Assamites now, which are ironically the one Clan which I think is the most inappropriate to join the Camarilla. These aren't absolute deal breakers for me and I can always change fluff that I don't like, but if there are too many things like that, I wonder if it is worth it at all.

That said, it was probably a good idea to change the setting in bold ways. It is a gamble, but the 5th edition has to distinguish itself somehow from V20 else no one will shell out the money for it.

I like the idea of making vampires and werewolves more of a match in combat, though that is just speculation on something that is off topic anyway. I'm not even really a big fan of crossovers.

One major concern of mine in buying V:tM now is political, so I want to avoid going into too much detail in this thread about the game itself, but some of the political baggage in the game along with the developers' reactions to certain issues have really rubbed me the wrong way and I increasingly feel obligated to withhold my money from companies who further agendas that I believe are harmful to society. So the substance of the game is going to have to really excite me to overcome this.

That said, I do want to hear more about the new Camarilla, maybe something can catch my imagination and spark my interest.

The Camarilla can be found out now because they released the 5th EditionThe Anarchs andThe Camarilla yesterday.

https://www.modiphius.net/collections/vampire-the-masquerade

The Anarchs are very different but interesting.

Interested in seeing how they've changed the Camarilla.

QuoteI'm curious to hear more about the state of the current Camarilla, because I always favored the Camarilla the most. Unfortunately, I also always thought that the Camarilla should have been more diverse, with more Clans present than in the canon. It looks like they moved in the opposite direction though by removing Clans. They seem to be including the Assamites now, which are ironically the one Clan which I think is the most inappropriate to join the Camarilla. These aren't absolute deal breakers for me and I can always change fluff that I don't like, but if there are too many things like that, I wonder if it is worth it at all.

The Assamites are now known as the Banu Haqim and basically they're going with the Schism from the metaplot with the Viziers and Sorcerers having joined the Camarilla. The Banu Haqim in Chicago by Night are a 50-something super-rich Iranian socialite art patron and her drug dealing progeny who wants to escape being her slave.
Honestly, I have the conspiracy theory the Assamites are being destroyed as an old concept because of Assassins Creed having made the concept untentable.

QuoteOne major concern of mine in buying V:tM now is political, so I want to avoid going into too much detail in this thread about the game itself, but some of the political baggage in the game along with the developers' reactions to certain issues have really rubbed me the wrong way and I increasingly feel obligated to withhold my money from companies who further agendas that I believe are harmful to society. So the substance of the game is going to have to really excite me to overcome this.

That said, I do want to hear more about the new Camarilla, maybe something can catch my imagination and spark my interest.

The Anarchs more or less spells out the politics of Vampire: The Masquerade and it's more or less unchanged from the 90s. The Brujah are deeply involved in counter-culture movements, whatever they are, so there's Brujah Antifa fighting Brujah Neo-Nazis when they're not actively trying to kill the Camarilla which only exists to protect its privileges yet is surprisingly non-racist or sexist (perhaps because Helena can force you to eat your own fingers if you make a sexist response).

They have doubled down on the "Punk" feel, though, that the system is irrepairably broken and there's a certain level of nihilism involved for vampires.

Given vampire is the first game to have black, gay, and transgender characters when other settings were at the time lily-white and straight--I'm willing to cut V:TM a lot of slack--particularly since the developers are romancing that time of "fight the establishment."

The Chicago by Night characters also continue the diversity of past editions with some changes (the Prince and Sheriff are now black).

Quote from: CTPhipps;1063576I felt it was simpler everywhere but Disciplines.

Just the way people talk about it. Maybe it's just the verbiage they use but the game sounds way more complicated than D&D or BRP or anything

If I were to buy V5, I would invoke Rule Zero and get rid of the setting changes because none of them sound appealing to me at all.

In my games, the setting changes in Revised and V5 never happened and never will happen, except possibly the Second Inquisition and even that would be modified somewhat.

Gangrel and Brujah are still in the Camarilla, the Setites and Assamites are still Independent, and the Ravnos are still a full clan.

Fuck the metaplot and all that other supernatural wangst bullshit.

As for the whole Gothic-Punk stuff, I would also excise those elements because to be honest, I utterly detest the Punk subculture and its myriad offshoots.

My vision of VTM would be like V1 in terms of setting, but less Punk and more Anime-influenced with influences from Gothic fiction as well.

It would still be Gothic in the literary sense but not Goth in the subculture sense.

More like Edgar Allan Poe and Lord Byron, and less like Sisters of Mercy and Type O Negative.

I love invoking Rule Zero to make Vampire a much more palatable game.

It would have a lot more trenchcoats, political intrigue, and katanas, and a lot less supernatural wangst, metaplot nonsense, and other pretentious punk rock bullshit.

Quote from: Lurtch;1063638Just the way people talk about it. Maybe it's just the verbiage they use but the game sounds way more complicated than D&D or BRP or anything

I'd argue V5 is basically 90% focused on narrative and characterization with the rules almost an afterthought to it. Most of the changes exist to make rolls less and less important.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1063679If I were to buy V5, I would invoke Rule Zero and get rid of the setting changes because none of them sound appealing to me at all.

In my games, the setting changes in Revised and V5 never happened and never will happen, except possibly the Second Inquisition and even that would be modified somewhat.

Gangrel and Brujah are still in the Camarilla, the Setites and Assamites are still Independent, and the Ravnos are still a full clan.

Fuck the metaplot and all that other supernatural wangst bullshit.

As for the whole Gothic-Punk stuff, I would also excise those elements because to be honest, I utterly detest the Punk subculture and its myriad offshoots.

My vision of VTM would be like V1 in terms of setting, but less Punk and more Anime-influenced with influences from Gothic fiction as well.

It would still be Gothic in the literary sense but not Goth in the subculture sense.

More like Edgar Allan Poe and Lord Byron, and less like Sisters of Mercy and Type O Negative.

I love invoking Rule Zero to make Vampire a much more palatable game.

It would have a lot more trenchcoats, political intrigue, and katanas, and a lot less supernatural wangst, metaplot nonsense, and other pretentious punk rock bullshit.

The people who benefited most in-universe from the changes from the metaplot are the Brujah and Gangrel basically. In previous editions, the Ventrue basically bully them and treat them like crap while the Anarchs did nothing. In the Anarchs, basically, they talk about how the Brujah and Gangrel are nobodies whipping boys and lashed out as a result. So now the Anarchs no longer are a joke and are an actual city-holding bunch of territories. I hated the Gangrel leaving before but the idea they formed their own sect with blackjack and hookers? Good for them.

I admit, it seems right to divide the Camarilla down between the 99% and the 1% with the Camarilla being the rich vampires.

One of the things that disappointed me about V5 was its replacement of Humanity with an 'every group makes their own Path' mechanic.

I loved the Humanity mechanic from 1e before Paths. It helped implement the Personal Horror theme. In order to survive as you, you need to retain your Humanity, but, in order to survive, many of the choices you're faced with will threaten your Humanity. It was a great innovation in 1e. Mechanics like this help lesser GMs like me do stuff that Tenebones and other great GM's can do effortlessly in game.

However, players wanted to play unrepentant monsters so they introduced Paths, which let you do terrible things as long as you didn't do a series of things you couldn't talk your way around or wouldn't do anyway. I'm not kidding some of the sins in the paths were stuff like "Not trying hard enough in a combat."

For V5, Ken explained in an interview that V5 was about you playing a monster, which is why the removed Humanity. Now, each group just makes up stuff, with example sins (that's not what they're called anymore) like "don't betray anyone in your gang," so its like Paths dialed up to 11.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1063715One of the things that disappointed me about V5 was its replacement of Humanity with an 'every group makes their own Path' mechanic.

I loved the Humanity mechanic from 1e before Paths. It helped implement the Personal Horror theme. In order to survive as you, you need to retain your Humanity, but, in order to survive, many of the choices you're faced with will threaten your Humanity. It was a great innovation in 1e. Mechanics like this help lesser GMs like me do stuff that Tenebones and other great GM's can do effortlessly in game.

However, players wanted to play unrepentant monsters so they introduced Paths, which let you do terrible things as long as you didn't do a series of things you couldn't talk your way around or wouldn't do anyway. I'm not kidding some of the sins in the paths were stuff like "Not trying hard enough in a combat."

For V5, Ken explained in an interview that V5 was about you playing a monster, which is why the removed Humanity. Now, each group just makes up stuff, with example sins (that's not what they're called anymore) like "don't betray anyone in your gang," so its like Paths dialed up to 11.

I think someone was screwing with you.

Humanity still exists.

But is Humanity the same in 5e as in 1e?

Honestly, once they created Paths of Enlightenment, they should have just ditched the entire Humanity/morality system in exchange for using role playing. The idea that vampires have to maintain a certain level of morality to keep from losing control is kind of interesting, but it becomes ridiculous when you throw them in these bizarre random religions that let you ignore Humanity entirely as long as you study death or whatever.

It's pretty much the same but you get bonuses related to your Touchstones and goals.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1064016Honestly, once they created Paths of Enlightenment, they should have just ditched the entire Humanity/morality system in exchange for using role playing. The idea that vampires have to maintain a certain level of morality to keep from losing control is kind of interesting, but it becomes ridiculous when you throw them in these bizarre random religions that let you ignore Humanity entirely as long as you study death or whatever.

I've had a lot of fun with Paths of Enlightenment but in my games I eventually said the Sabbat's paths are complete bullshit like a certain religion written by a sci-fi wwriter. As such, they BARELY keep the Beast at bay and all Sabbat are half-insane and doomed to live lives as shells of their former selves.

I save the really ALIEN but actually viable teachings of vampires for Roads practiced by Elders as well as secret secret sects.

The Sabbat are a bunch of insane zealots who don't understand their own religion.

Okay, here's what I meant about them doubling down on Paths for everyone.

You have Humanity. In 1e it's beauty was that it was a list of things you might need to do to survive and thrive, so it presented a terrific (for its time) mechanic. Then came Paths.

In 5e, you have Humanity, and you loose it by violating Convictions and Chronicle Tenents. These are wholly made up by the players. Yes the GM can veto them, but welcome to the world of "having to argue with your players".

To be honest, the Humanity mechanic was a mistake to begin with.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1064050To be honest, the Humanity mechanic was a mistake to begin with.

I think it's the best idea if you actually want player characters not to be unrepentant murderers and action stars but guys trying not to kill people.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1064071I think it's the best idea if you actually want player characters not to be unrepentant murderers and action stars but guys trying not to kill people.

Point conceded there.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1064071I think it's the best idea if you actually want player characters not to be unrepentant murderers and action stars but guys trying not to kill people.

Players could, you know, actually role play their characters. Some of the most in depth morality related role playing that I've ever seen has been in games with no morality of alignment mechanics. Once Paths we're introduced, it was essentially an acknowledgement that Humanity didn't work, so why pretend after that point? It just created this ridiculous misperception that the Camarilla was supposed to be the Humanity Sect.