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Author Topic: Vampire: The Masquerade 4th edition  (Read 11983 times)

James Gillen

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Vampire: The Masquerade 4th edition
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2015, 05:21:29 PM »
Quote from: Orphan81;845852


Oh and the whole "Lol, you think this is a cash grab, we're in the RPG industry! We would be doing something else if it was a cash grab" they keep doing is disingenuous as fuck too...


Make the last edition obsolete in 2 years or less.  They learned that a long time ago from the producers of college textbooks.

JG
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James Gillen

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« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2015, 05:28:37 PM »
Quote from: Snowman0147;845870
Oh god I would not wish that on my worst enemies.  To know that all your work and your most important IP that you had created is owned by company that set you to the cleaners is bad enough.  The fact that the company that screwed you over lets you work on your IP that you used to own, but must be under their guidelines is fresh new hell I never want to experience.

Just what the hell was White Wolf thinking?  The MMO market was over saturated at 2006 when this shit was announce and CCP only had only made one game.  CCP doesn't even have a proven track record so you can't even rely on them.  You don't know if CCP is a good company, or they just got lucky.  Well we all know now since CCP almost went bankrupt and gave up on WoD MMO with millions of dollars lost.

Point is not only did White Wolf lost their IPs, but during the development of the MMO CCP been doing every thing they can to ruin that project.  Money, resources, and people were taken out to support EVE Online.  It is as if they wanted to cheat out on White Wolf because that is the best way to ruin a game development project.

All the while White Wolf staff were telling us bullshit lies to disguise the fact that things are going well.  Even out right saying that they are partners when in reality all the important business decisions are made by CCP.  Which by the way that is not a partnership.  That is what I call being bought out and now you got to do what master CCP wants you to do.  

So when White Wolf finally collapse dead a few of the former owners got to make Onyx Path which they started to WoD games under the "goodness" of CCP's heart.  I like to know how much of a percentage does CCP take out of each and every sell.  I mean there has to be reason why the PDFs are so expensive when compared to other companies that do the same quality of work.

I think the only reason why Onyx Path has full ownership of Scion and Tri series is because of two things.  Scion was the least selling IP that White Wolf had.  I love Scion so don't get me wrong, but it is also the truth.  Secondly the Tri series hadn't been touch for years and CCP probably felt that was going to be a none profitable IP as well.  I mean if CCP was actually sorry for this bullshit they should had given Onyx Path all the IPs that it bought out from them.  Instead CCP is half owner of Exalted and fully owns WoD which they hang over Onyx Path like a forbidden low hanging fruit.

It is just all fuck up and no one can make a mistake out of it.  CCP screwed over White Wolf, killed it, and throws the shell of White Wolf a few scraps when it feels like it.  That is a horrible existence to live.  No amount of bullshit and whining is going to cover up that mess.


You think this is bad, I'm a Hero Games fan.

JG
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jan paparazzi

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« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2015, 07:37:12 PM »
I don't really need to play every supernatural type there is (although it would be nice). I think the most important part about the genre (besides monsters are real, magic is real) is you are part of a supernatural conspiracy. That creates a situation where you have to investigate what goes bump in the night, while also keeping an eye on everyone who want to stab you in the back. A game without factions won't do. That would make it a Cthulhu-like investigator game and that's only 50% of the recipe.
May I say that? Yes, I may say that!

Thornhammer

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« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2015, 08:13:28 PM »
Based on what I see over at Big Purple, Onyx Path seems like it's actively hostile to gamers who don't identify as liberal.

Is this a valid assessment, or is that simply seeing thing through the Purple Lens?

Orphan81

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« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2015, 09:08:36 PM »
Quote from: Thornhammer;846135
Based on what I see over at Big Purple, Onyx Path seems like it's actively hostile to gamers who don't identify as liberal.

Is this a valid assessment, or is that simply seeing thing through the Purple Lens?


TL,DR Version: They didn't use to be...but these days...yes they are. Or well, at least the writers who are active on the big purple...the quiet ones working on the Trinity stuff seem to be more apolitical, but the Exalted and Nwod writers are actively hostile to conservatives.

Full Version
Onyx Path has always been a Liberal company in one way or another. I'm a Liberal myself... But the type of conservative they use to make fun of, was more or less the stereotype of conservatives, or rather the 80's neocons.

White Wolf was always about pushing boundaries and showing marginalized people, politics, and cultures as part of the backdrop of their games... and honestly it was kind of awesome. As I stated in a previous thread, being a teen in the 90's, Whitewolf books taught me quite a bit about real foriegn culture, or historical events like the Holocaust (They would always point out where the real world facts ended and their fictional interpretations began, responsibly).

Now, we flash forward to the problem today... Whitewolf won....or rather, the politics of the people who supported Whitewolf, Liberals like me who grew up on it... Well we kinda won for the most part...

No, it doesn't mean racism has been eliminated, it doesn't mean homophobia has either...but for the most part...today, in 2015 we are FAR more progressive than we were, even in the 90's... Old Whitewolf products aren't "edgy" anymore because they did challenge the status quo, and well were victorious.... It's not bad, it's kinda awesome in fact...

So what happened? Well, they started up the New World of Darkness... And the Nwod was very non-political, it was very dry....It was, to be frank...boring as fuck for the first few years of it's existence...

It took the Nwod about 5 years to really start churning out things that were in any way interesting...then you throw in all the CCP buying them out stuff, and rumors of the company dying....many of the original writers and creators end up leaving the company, moving on to other things...

Then they bring back the Classic World of Darkness....and it's a fucking hit. I will bet 10 to 1...they make more money off of Classic Wod these days, than they do Nwod...

Of course here's where the problem comes in...

The writers still working for Onyx Path...they don't realize they've won the culture war. They're still fighting it. They can't go into the edgy directions they did before...nobody cares anymore... A gay character in fiction is no longer something noteworthy or special ((A good thing mind you, it means we as a society have moved on..)) And well...they tried being non-political with Nwod and just writing Horror stuff...and that gave them a ton of shitty books and some really fucking awesome books..

Most of those folks who wrote the really awesome books have moved on...So, it meant it was time to try and be edgy political again...

This is where you get folks like Matt McFarland and David A Hill who have pretty much drank the extreme Liberal kool-aid and started running full on in direction toward Progressivism even harder than ever before.

But see, here's the thing... the Old Whitewolf? It had conservative fans. It had people who were Republicans, and Libertarians who played it and loved it..and while Whitewolf writers on the whole tended to lean toward Liberalism far more...it's not like they went out of their way to drive fans of different political spectrums away...

These days though...now...Well, you have them making games like "Beast: The Primordial" where Gamergaters are actual full on Psychotic Villains...and it's up to the Brave Beasts to kill them all...and to psychologically and physically torture anyone who doesn't fulfill there belief system ((I shit you not...Beast was probably the first Backlash to hit Onyx Path in a long time...McFarland and Hill's seething contempt for Non-Feminists and Non-SJW's was so thick in the text, it even angered their SJW proponents)).

Now the rumors are, that 4th edition Vampire is going to "clean up" the "problematic" aspects of Masquerade, like Hill did on Dark Ages Vampire ((Removing the Giovanni, Making Setites into good guys, and a few other things)) because Cwod is now look at as being racist since Masquerade has some Clans who are very culturally based.

So yes...these days? They are actively hostile to Conservatives. Just as they are actively hostile to Liberals who are not Liberal enough for them.
1. Some of you culture warriors are so committed to the bit you'll throw out any nuance or common sense in fear it's 'giving in' to the other side.

2. I'm a married homeowner with a career and a child. I won life. You can't insult me.

3. I work in a Prison, your tough guy act is boring.

Snowman0147

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« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2015, 10:06:33 PM »
You pretty much nailed it Orphan.  There is no need for 4th edition of cWoD.  This is just a cash grab that also design to chase away the old customer base for the new psychotic one.  This is a fuck you towards those loyal customers.

Ki§a

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« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2015, 05:36:58 AM »
Quote from: Brand55;846079
Who knows? Kevin Crawford is finally tackling Exalted-but-better later this year, so if I cross my fingers maybe one day he'll give us a better version of the World of Darkness.


Apologies for the off-topic, but is there any info on this? Couldn't find anything with a quick look on SN's site and twitter.

Imperator

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« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2015, 07:34:42 AM »
Quote from: Orphan81;845720
But apparently 4th ed Vampire is going to be a yet even NEWER wod system....with a completely different setting...Oh wait, I'm sorry the setting is technically the same, it's just Gehenna actually happened 12 years ago...

Could you provide some links to this information?

Quote from: Orphan81;846150
These days though...now...Well, you have them making games like "Beast: The Primordial" where Gamergaters are actual full on Psychotic Villains...and it's up to the Brave Beasts to kill them all...and to psychologically and physically torture anyone who doesn't fulfill there belief system ((I shit you not...Beast was probably the first Backlash to hit Onyx Path in a long time...McFarland and Hill's seething contempt for Non-Feminists and Non-SJW's was so thick in the text, it even angered their SJW proponents)).

Wow, I missed this stuff completely.

Quote
Now the rumors are, that 4th edition Vampire is going to "clean up" the "problematic" aspects of Masquerade, like Hill did on Dark Ages Vampire ((Removing the Giovanni, Making Setites into good guys, and a few other things)) because Cwod is now look at as being racist since Masquerade has some Clans who are very culturally based.

Where do these rumors come from?
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Brand55

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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2015, 10:22:51 AM »
Quote from: Ki§a;846212
Apologies for the off-topic, but is there any info on this? Couldn't find anything with a quick look on SN's site and twitter.

There isn't very much, I'm afraid. So far all that we've gotten is this description:
Quote
After this is settled, I need something trim and straightforward to round out my 2015 schedule, so I'll be putting out Godbound, an OSR-derived game of demigods and legendary doings. It's essentially a full-dress version of my Exemplars & Eidolons freebie layout example-slash-game. When you're writing a high-powered game like this, helping people to create demigods is only half the work- the real challenge is in giving GMs the tools to make interesting challenges for them, and reflect their actions meaningfully in the wider world. You need a suitably epic backdrop, and ways to change that backdrop in response to PC actions. Once your PCs start backhanding armies, you can't get a night's entertainment out of six orcs in a room any more. The GM needs a hand in dishing up something to suit that degree of power and influence, and Godbound's meant to give it to them.

Source: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?761408-SWN-What-s-next-what-do-you-want-to-see-after-Starvation-Cheap

Doing an Exalted-style game is something KC mentioned over a year ago so I'm really excited that he's finally doing it. I'm sold already, and like all of his stuff even if the system or setting isn't 100% to my tastes I figure it will still be a gold mine of useful information and inspiration. I liked Exemplars & Eidolons, though, so I'm very hopeful that Godbound will blow me away.

Orphan81

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« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2015, 10:23:09 AM »
Quote from: Imperator;846222
Could you provide some links to this information?


https://www.reddit.com/r/WhiteWolfRPG/comments/3fayio/vtm_4th_edition_announced_for_2016/


About the 3rd response down is from their community management and covers some bullet points. There's some more on the Onxy Path Forums itself in the announcement thread. Information is still scarce, but we know it will be a system overhaul, and the setting will be post Gehenna 12 years...Most likely with Wormwood having happened.

Rpg.net might have more but I didn't want to dig through their forum threads.

Quote from: Imperator;846222

Wow, I missed this stuff completely.

Yeah, Beast had it's Kickstarter last month, and released the beta version of the text for anyone who wanted to check it over. Beasts were creatures that needed to feed, a constant hunger to feed on pain and misery.

There opponents were "Heroes" people who were a victim of one of their feeding attempts, and decided to kill the Beast. Yet this was presented as the Heroes being "bad" because the Beasts "Just want to be left alone" (Actual line from the text) Left alone to poison and suffocate a teenager with a plastic bag into near death for stealing candy...(Actual example from their in book playtest of a Beast feeding. An older kid is a dick and steals halloween candy from a few others...The beast, who looks like a neighborhood grandmother, sneaks into his house, poisons his candy, waits for him to start throwing up, and then wraps a plastic bag over his head and chokes him out) But yes, the survivors who want to Kill the beasts all have something fundamentally "Broken" about them, it's why they want to kill Beasts..

The text went on and on about how terrible Heroes were, and how they're the bullies of society who can't accept change, and who want to keep their power and privilege over others... One of the sample Heroes is...I shit you not... a Fedora wearing neckbeard who says "M'lady".

Beasts were also said to be stand ins, and represenitives of marginalized groups such as "Feminists" and "Trans" individuals. Suffice to say, Feminists and Trans were not happy about being represented as FUCKING BEASTS THAT FEED ON THE MISERY OF OTHERS....just as Non-Feminists and those of a more Libertarian or Conservative bent were not happy being straw manned into caricature villains...

The backlash was enough, McFarland actually went back and did extensive rewrites to the setting before the Kickstarter was over. On top of all this, I didn't mention Beasts were also suppose to be the most "cross-over" friendly game in Nwod....and all the Text did was hammer home how "Cool" Beasts were, and how every other Supernatural Creature loved them...((to the point of getting mechanical social bonuses when talking to other Supernaturals)) and how they viewed the other monsters as their "Little brothers and sisters" and knew the real truth of the Nwod.... Basically making them World of Darkness Poochie..

Quote from: Imperator;846222

Where do these rumors come from?


Onyx Path Forums and Facebook groups. Dark Ages 20 made some pretty extensive retcons to the setting...to the point where it's not actually compatible with V20 setting and Rules wise. It's also met with very "mixed" results... The Giovanni had their name changed, along with their themes of incest, necrophilia and organized crime.. Setities were made into the "real" good guys of the setting....They took the focus off of Europe which is...really odd for a game called "Dark Ages".... Decided Salout was evil, switched around a few Disciplinces as well.... (Obfuscate got Quietus Silence effect at level 1...so now everyone with Obfuscate can be an awesome Assassin rendering the Assamites kinda moot) along with a host of other things... Like changing how Malkavians madness works to make them "Less offensive".

Also, Sashya Vyokos was made into a good character, as they had a mission statement of no Trans character can be allowed to be evil.

Due to all of this, and some of the words used about Vampire IV (Things like "It's time to bring it into the 21st Century" and "It needs to be the cutting edge game again!") Some folks are predicting some rather harsh setting changes..
1. Some of you culture warriors are so committed to the bit you'll throw out any nuance or common sense in fear it's 'giving in' to the other side.

2. I'm a married homeowner with a career and a child. I won life. You can't insult me.

3. I work in a Prison, your tough guy act is boring.

crkrueger

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« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2015, 10:38:24 AM »
Kinda seems like a natural response to me.

They do the whole 20th Anniversary thing with the oWoD line, supposedly "updating" it for the year, but in addition modifying them somewhat for the [strike]religion[/strike] political beliefs of the authors and end up pissing off both the people who want OP's grubby SJW paws off of their RPG history and the crusaders who wanted a complete awfulpurple revision.

The answer?  Old World of Darkness - The Sequel.  Gehenna happened, which completely altered Vampiric society (and possibly all of the world, who knows) and now they get to posit their Vampiric Political Utopia.
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Motorskills

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« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2015, 11:10:46 AM »
I never played VtM (etc) in the World of Darkness, I (and almost everyone else I ever met) played it in the real world.

Easier for the Storyteller to write for, easier for the players to conceptualize. And of course, in one sense it immediately made the game darker, since you couldn't handwave it away as unreal so easily.


So I have no issue with VtM being given a new edition:

i) it can bring the game into the smartphone / YouTube / Snowden world could make for a fascinating take on things.

ii) RPGs, and the people writing them, have all matured. Well, mostly. I would expect to see a significant step up in quality there. (Part of that is dependent on them ditching the woo, ditching the saddo-goth stuff, which is far from guaranteed).

iii) new people come into the hobby all the time, I have no problem with them being catered for

iv) if VtM does well, maybe some trickledown love will subsequently follow for DAV/VtDA/DA20
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 11:11:39 AM by Motorskills »
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« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2015, 11:11:36 AM »
Quote from: Orphan81;845720
I wouldn't want that myself honestly....I mean, if I want to use Nwod rules to play Vampire... that's what Requiem is for...

But apparently 4th ed Vampire is going to be a yet even NEWER wod system....with a completely different setting...Oh wait, I'm sorry the setting is technically the same, it's just Gehenna actually happened 12 years ago...

So so many Vampires died, it basically lets them just wipe the slate clean and create an entirely new setting...

Why the hell create an entirely new Vampire setting, write entirely new rules, and then say It's Masquerade? Why not just call it Vampire the X part III electric Boogaloo and be done with it?


The cynic in me says that Requiem sold like shit, and that the entire concept of the Covenants wrecks part of what was great about Vampire.  I mean an entire part of the game was how everyone is some shade of evil - from reasonably benevolent, "I won't even kill you, just make your life miserable if you oppose me" evil to outright "I drink the blood of infants" evil.  And you don't get any choices.

Covenants gave you choices.  You could no longer have ridiculous expectations like you could track someone through the forest because you happened to grow claws.  No, now you had choices!  You could play politics, if you wanted.  Or you could join vampire church and follow vampire Jesus.  You could choose to go all wiccan/druid magic, or you could devote yourself to being a vampire badass.  And if all those things with hierarchies annoyed you, the Anarchs were an actual thing, and not just outsiders who were a joke.

They can't recapture the 90s though.  They never will re-create that magic.  The God-Machine Chronicles was their way forward, but they just don't seem to grasp that.

Snowman0147

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« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2015, 01:20:39 PM »
Holy shit.  I thought the beasts attacks anyone and just accepted the fact they are monsters.  I favor the heroes before, but now I fucking love them.  They are in fact heroes as far as I am concern.

Yeah they made a lot of horrible changes in Dark Age.  Knowing them they are going to make a lot more changes to the 4th edition.  I can pray that they will have the same amount of success as WOTC did with D&D 4th edition.  As in I want this to bomb so fucking hard that Onyx Path would have to get new and better writers to fix the classic world of darkness.

Warboss Squee

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« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2015, 02:31:46 PM »
I loved the double think going on with Beast.  The Heroes were misogynistic Gamergate trolls, so they were the bad guys.  But the Beasts were abusive monsters, so they were the Gators.

40 pages of that bullshit swirling around back and forth.  So many triggered people, I literally haven't laughed that hard in weeks.