Quote from: Sacrosanct;630594Are you high?  James Holloway was known for his very realistic arms and armor style.  I can't think of a single iconic D&D image where someone had this super huge anime weapon.

That's because those artists didn't pay close attention to german arms manuals that made use of things like Zweihanders, and were more influenced by late medieval recreationists and swords from the early firearms period.  There work was great work, but the best fantasy art that captures the Appendix N feel for me is dirty, gritty, full of emotion, over the top, not stately knights or pennants.

Fantasy art has always been highly stylized.  Anyone who claims that there was 'one' or 'an iconic' style of D&D art is just trolling. D&D had many art styles between 1976 and 1997.  Berserk expresses to me the Appendix N feeling. I feel that many here don't like it because it shares some elements with japanese CRPGS and the fact that it's from overseas.

Maybe the disconnect here is that for me, D&D isn't necessarily TSR, but what Gary drew upon for Appendix N - Moorcock, Leiber, Howard, the original S&S works from which D&D derives.

Quote from: Haffrung;630567What I'm disputing is that WotC would want to make D&D aimed at 8-year-olds. That's way too young. And if you're aiming at 12-14 year olds, they like entirely different stuff form 8 year olds.

Back in the 80s TSR had various "D&D gateway" products - the Endless Quest line of choose-your-own-adventure books, the D&D cartoon, the AD&D toy-line (which, rather inexplicably, featured a different lineup of characters than the cartoon), the Dungeon! boardgame, etc. - aimed at young kids, while the game itself was still targeted (at least ostensibly) to older audiences (especially AD&D with its tiny print and High Gygaxian vocabulary and nipple-laden art and such). This was clever (if possibly unintentional) marketing - young kids get indoctrinated into the concepts and aesthetics of D&D without kiddifying the game itself to the extent it turns off older kids and adults.

Quote from: Benoist;630599And you are so incredibly wrong as to make people wonder whether you are trolling for the lulz. Congratulations.

Ah, the almighty head of orthodoxy rears and roars.  No, I'm not wrong, I have the right to like what you hate. And read some Moorcock.  Stormbringer was described as being bigger than Gut's weapon.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;630608Ah, the almighty head of orthodoxy rears and roars.  No, I'm not wrong, I have the right to like what you hate. And read some Moorcock.  Stormbringer was described as being bigger than Gut's weapon.

Go look at your pictures again.  The real life sword is NOTHING like that anime piece of shit you posted earlier.  For one, the crossguard of that anime crap is bigger than the dude's head, and would weigh about 10 pounds by itself.

Are you really trying to argue that you think the two are equivalent?

Wow.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;630608I have the right to like what you hate.

You unequivocally have that right, and I wouldn't take it away from you.

This is not the argument you just made, however.

You didn't just say "I like this and damn if you don't," which again, is totally fine in and of itself.

What you actually said was that the piece of art you showed demonstrated that "manga art styles can support the old school ethic," and when called out on the ridiculousness of that assertion based on that manga pic you said that this piece "stunk of Appendix N aesthetic."

You additionally made an equivalence between an outrageously oversized weapon in the manga piece you showed us and the pictures of the two-handed sword which hilariously enough looks nothing like it.

These are the actual things you said. Not just "I like this," no. You said "this is SO Appendix N!" And that's where we are just looking at our screens and well, rolling to disbelieve.

Quote from: Benoist;630610And that's where we are just looking at our screens and well, rolling to disbelieve.

I passed my roll. I don't believe it at all.
And it still won't go away!

//Panjumanju

The laughable part was the "historically accurate Zweihander sword!"

Show me one, ONE, Appendix N era artist who had anything similar.
Gonzo, yes. But gonzo in a hot chick riding a pterodactyl fighting a guy with a chainsaw for a hand way (none of them superdeforme), not whatever the fuck you wanna call "Buster-style".

Sucessful troll though, but not as subtle as the "fellow grog" you tossed out in the get rid of clerics thread.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;630554To all of those who say that manga art styles don't support the old school ethic -

To thee I reply - Guts from Berserk.  D&D as fuck. And with a huge but historically accurate Zweihander sword!

Sorry bud, but I'll go with 1989, Mistwell and Benoist here. That is not "historically accurate" by any sane definition of the term (Oakeshott must be spinning in his grave) and the popularization of the giant honking sword aesthetic definitely postdates what most people think of as "old school D&D" (I'd say 1974-1988).

I'm cool with you enjoying and adopting this sort of imagery for tour D&D game, any edition (that's part of the beauty of D&D), but to claim any sort of kinship with "old school D&D" as understood by most people is seriously uninformed, or bugfuck crazy, or trolling. I'm not one to assume bad faith prima facie so I'm going with uninformed, and urge you to catch up on your reading of the classics. As a fellow latecomer to older editions, I assure you it's been eye-opening, refreshing even.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;630608And read some Moorcock.  Stormbringer was described as being bigger than Gut's weapon.

[citation needed]

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;630603That's because those artists didn't pay close attention to german arms manuals that made use of things like Zweihanders, and were more influenced by late medieval recreationists and swords from the early firearms period.  There work was great work, but the best fantasy art that captures the Appendix N feel for me is dirty, gritty, full of emotion, over the top, not stately knights or pennants.

Fantasy art has always been highly stylized.  Anyone who claims that there was 'one' or 'an iconic' style of D&D art is just trolling. D&D had many art styles between 1976 and 1997.  Berserk expresses to me the Appendix N feeling. I feel that many here don't like it because it shares some elements with japanese CRPGS and the fact that it's from overseas.

Maybe the disconnect here is that for me, D&D isn't necessarily TSR, but what Gary drew upon for Appendix N - Moorcock, Leiber, Howard, the original S&S works from which D&D derives.

I think perhaps the disconnect is that you have some cultural tastes that simply don't connect well with this crowd, and what you think is in good taste and theme is simply a preference not shared by others (myself included).  The picture you posted shares nothing with my preferences and tastes in D&D.  That you don't understand why others don't see what you are seeing, is I think a cultural disconnect more than anything else.

That's my polite way of saying your Japanese Animation fantasy picture is a piece of shit.

Quote from: Mistwell;630651I think perhaps the disconnect is that you have some cultural tastes that simply don't connect well with this crowd, and what you think is in good taste and theme is simply a preference not shared by others (myself included).  The picture you posted shares nothing with my preferences and tastes in D&D.  That you don't understand why others don't see what you are seeing, is I think a cultural disconnect more than anything else.

That's my polite way of saying your Japanese Animation fantasy picture is a piece of shit.

It has nothing to do with differences in tastes.  It has to do with him posting a magna picture of a huge ass sword, and then saying it works because here's a picture of a real life sword that looks nothing like the one he's trying to make an analogy with.

Ok, I'm a big anime/manga nerd... I admit to it...

But dude.. have you actually read any of the Appendix N books?

The Japanese culture has a long history of taking things and other influences and making them distinctly their own.

While the authors might have claimed influence from D&D and Appendix N lit, what their final product is NO LONGER indentifiable as such... IT is now distinctly Japanese Anime/Manga

I liked Record of Lodoss War, Berserk, Claymore, and Bastard!!. These Series are distinctly anime. There is little to no D&D or Appendix N left in them.

Yes, the Zweihander and the No Dachi were big ass swords... But they were still realistic big ass swords...

Are you dudes hating on Berserk? Because I'm sorry, but Berserk fucking owns. It's probably the the best piece of western fantasy written by a Japanese dude ever, and the whole idea that the series is shit because his sword is too big really does it a disservice, its existence as something that does or doesn't represent D&D notwithstanding. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Paper Monkey;630663Are you dudes hating on Berserk? Because I'm sorry, but Berserk fucking owns. It's probably the the best piece of western fantasy written by a Japanese dude ever, and the whole idea that the series is shit because his sword is too big really does it a disservice, its existence as something that does or doesn't represent D&D notwithstanding. :rolleyes:

No one is doing that.  What we saying is that using that image to say that Anime is representative of old school D&D is ridiculous.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;630685No one is doing that.  What we saying is that using that image to say that Anime is representative of old school D&D is ridiculous.

If anything I'd say Berserk works better compared to Warhammer Fantasy, both in terms of theme and the rather over the top nature of some of the characters. And to be fair to Kaiiu Keiichi the sword is acknowledged as ridiculous in setting as well. Normal people explicitly can't use it, and was intended to be used to hunt dragons. The main character becomes more inhuman as time goes on, initially his equipment is more reasonable before he accumulates magical artifacts and hunts demons for a living. The supporting cast is more mundane.