It's funny the sort of details that can just hit you all of the sudden. Take dragons, for instance. In my head, I had ideas for my upcoming Irrin campaign of riders of ferocious trained dragons, knights riding out to combat foul creatures that howl and breathe flame in a senseless rage. On the other hand, I also want creatures of high magic, cunning, and intelligence that present an even more formidable challenge.
 
To this end, in my campaign world, I'm going to go with Wyrms, or Lesser Dragons, and Great Dragons.
 
Wyrms have all the physical characteristics of their more intelligent bretheren, but none of the magic or psychic powers. They stomp about, eat maidens, breathe flame, and live in remote caves littered with the bones of six and fifty adventures.
 
Mechanically, in the game, all I have to do is cap their intelligence around High Animal-level, strip out the magic and psionics, and leave the brute strength. Easy as pie.
 
Great Dragons are the ones that know high magic, may have psionics, are farrrr smarter than Joe Average, and have designs of power and wealth that may stretch for centuries. This is much closer to your standard D&D/Palladium dragon. Shouldn't have to change a blessed thing mechanically.
 
So, the only other thing I need to do is create a why for this. As vanilla fantasy as I've designed Irrin to be, a good "When The World Was Young" legend sounds good. So, hey, the Dragons rebel against the Old Gods. Old Gods say, "Not gonna happen", kill more than a few metric tons of dragons, and strike roughly half of dragons dumb & mundane as a warning to the remaining dragons and any who would challenge the supremacy of the Old Gods.
 
Calithena, this one's for you, pal.

I'll play!

After being slain by magics, one of the gifts given to Men and Elves, some of the dragons enacted a plan to steal a bit of the gods' power in order to defend against this new threat.  These dragons failed in their attempt, for no one could truly challenge the gods, but the gods were pleased that one of their creations was so cunning and confident to enact a plan.  They rained down gifts of magic, fire, and might upon the daring wyrms who would storm heaven's gate while cursing those that would not dare greatness with an eternity of mediocrity.

Now, great and ancient dragons explore the mysteries of the universe while their cousins pursue petty tasks and unremarkable ambitions.

Why?

Well, it seems like the gods are always casting people down for challenging them.  It's a classic, and it's fun too, but it sure would be neat if some gods said "Ya know, this rocks.  They can't win, but they truly are our greatest creation to embark on such a daring plan!  Let us show the creatures of the world that we marvel at their ambitions and never want a creation that grows stagnant or boring."

Quote from: C.W.RichesonI'll play!
 
After being slain by magics, one of the gifts given to Men and Elves, some of the dragons enacted a plan to steal a bit of the gods' power in order to defend against this new threat. These dragons failed in their attempt, for no one could truly challenge the gods, but the gods were pleased that one of their creations was so cunning and confident to enact a plan. They rained down gifts of magic, fire, and might upon the daring wyrms who would storm heaven's gate while cursing those that would not dare greatness with an eternity of mediocrity.
 
Now, great and ancient dragons explore the mysteries of the universe while their cousins pursue petty tasks and unremarkable ambitions.
 
Why?
 
Well, it seems like the gods are always casting people down for challenging them. It's a classic, and it's fun too, but it sure would be neat if some gods said "Ya know, this rocks. They can't win, but they truly are our greatest creation to embark on such a daring plan! Let us show the creatures of the world that we marvel at their ambitions and never want a creation that grows stagnant or boring."

Fun! You know, it's worth mentioning that in Irrin, the Old Gods disappeared not too long after the creation of the world. I mean, like, gone for Ages. So there'd almost definitely be more than one conflicting legend/myth as to why some dragons are "elevated". Heck, I'm even thinking talk of an artifact reputed to be under guard on the highest peak of the highest mountain in the lands to the far, untravelled west, past the last known seas, where allegedly lies the item that could elevate or cast down all of dragonkind.
 
That would be what we call "suitable for higher levels", though.

That's a very cool idea.  I was wondering what system you are using, and then I saw the campaign website...and it doesn't load correctly for me.  Are you using PFRPG?

Quote from: C.W.RichesonI'll play!

After being slain by magics, one of the gifts given to Men and Elves, some of the dragons enacted a plan to steal a bit of the gods' power in order to defend against this new threat.  These dragons failed in their attempt, for no one could truly challenge the gods, but the gods were pleased that one of their creations was so cunning and confident to enact a plan.  They rained down gifts of magic, fire, and might upon the daring wyrms who would storm heaven's gate while cursing those that would not dare greatness with an eternity of mediocrity.

Now, great and ancient dragons explore the mysteries of the universe while their cousins pursue petty tasks and unremarkable ambitions.

Why?

Well, it seems like the gods are always casting people down for challenging them.  It's a classic, and it's fun too, but it sure would be neat if some gods said "Ya know, this rocks.  They can't win, but they truly are our greatest creation to embark on such a daring plan!  Let us show the creatures of the world that we marvel at their ambitions and never want a creation that grows stagnant or boring."

That's an interesting reversal.

Quote from: joewolzThat's a very cool idea. I was wondering what system you are using, and then I saw the campaign website...and it doesn't load correctly for me. Are you using PFRPG?

Hi joe!
 
I actually plan to use it with several different systems. I'm starting out with Palladium Fantasy, but also left it wide-open enough to use with Castles & Crusades, RMFRP/HARP, possibly a d20 variant (such as Perfect20 or a core version), and whatever else I like.
 
Here's a link that may work better: Irrin Site . It's still pretty rough, but I have the basics down. I'll be updating a lot more soon...

Zach, I do not know if you have Tales of Gaea but I took the approach of splitting the dragon breeds up into several types. It goes like this, short-short version.

Before everything there were the Dragons. These were/are ancient creatures of power beyond the gods. For whatever reasons, they decided to create a race to serve them, the gods. They quickly grew bored with them and let them go about whatever they wished.

The gods tried several times to form at creation and missed. Eventually, one of the Dragons let them in on a secret, part of their number was not co-operating. These "evil" gods wished to form creation in their own image. A deal was struck but one of the "good" gods would need to give up their life for the sake of creation. Gaea stepped forward and her sacrifice was accepted. The Dragons were intrigued as they believed their creation indestructible. Seeing the new formed creation, they coveted it for their own. Borenhaus, lord of the Dragons came into the world and his wings blotted the sky. He reached out to take Gaea as his own but the world rejected him, dealing a grievous wound to the hand that had touched her. His blood sprayed across the world and where it landed dragons, wyrms, sollaanl-lesthra (lizard men), wyverns and all forms of dragon folk sprang up. The Dragons still reel from this  revelation, that there is a force greater than them in existence.

So, that is the creation story I have used for the different dragons on Gaea. Essentially a blending of the power of the Dragons of Old and the new super being that is Gaea. I am sure, if you wanted, a similar adaptation could be made of Irrin. Something like an extraction of an older more powerful creation. This way, you can always up the ante and pull out the "Real" dragons.

Bill

Just throwing this out there totally off the cuff, not even sure it really relates to the thread but what the hell:

Lesser Dragons and Greater Dragons are the same species, its just that the Greater Dragons are the elders of the race. Lesser Dragons are "culled" over the centuries trying to move up the ladder, either by men in armor, illness, natural disasters or - most likely - by Greater Dragons. As they age, they gain the magic/psionic powers they need to help them advance to Greater Dragon status.

Greater Dragons watch the actions of their "children" with great interest, and weed out those who might be a threat to their power. As such, the only ones who get to Greater Dragon status are exceptionally crafty, powerful, or just ruthless. Or maybe real good at hiding. This means the Greater Dragons are HUGELY challenging enemies, because they're literally the peak of Dragon evolution, with centuries of chicanery and power struggles under their wings.

Hey Zach -

Just took a look at the site - very cool stuff.

Can't wait to see more!

Brought to you by the Institute for Completely True But Mostly Content-less Commentary.

Quote from: ReimdallHey Zach -

Just took a look at the site - very cool stuff.

Can't wait to see more!

Brought to you by the Institute for Completely True But Mostly Content-less Commentary.

Thanks!  I'm actually looking at using parts of the Mass Combat rules from Epic (though that's still very much in the formulative stage), and more than a couple of the organizations have inspired spinoffs in my homebrew.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstThanks!  I'm actually looking at using parts of the Mass Combat rules from Epic (though that's still very much in the formulative stage), and more than a couple of the organizations have inspired spinoffs in my homebrew.

Sweet!  I have nifty little mass combat flow chart I've whipped up as a quick ref for mass combat that I can email you if you're interested.

Quote from: ReimdallSweet!  I have nifty little mass combat flow chart I've whipped up as a quick ref for mass combat that I can email you if you're interested.

Please do!