JimBob, you know, I'm sure you're not oppressing your players or anything. OTOH, if you're having trouble with people mistaking powers for personality, then that's an issue with the group and not really with the power level. Don't you specialize in that kind of thing?

...eh, I'm mostly kidding. I think 'low-powered' really depends on the game. I don't think we saw JimBob qualify what he intended low powered to be, but I'm pretty sure that he doesn't mean 'cripples'.

It's just gamer (or human?) nature that if you have a list of k3w1 p0wrz to choose from, that's what you'll focus on. Doesn't mean someone's a bad roleplayer, or a munchkin.

No, I don't mean that PCs should be cripples. I specifically said that I was generous in play, letting them do ordinary human things without rolling.

I've played in high powered games, such as epic level D&D, and also low powered games.  JimBob's GURPS games have characters start with 25CP, which any GURPS player will agree isn't very much at all.

Based on my experiences, I tend to prefer games to be at the lower end of the power scale, but I don't see any evidence that high-powered characters are any more or less interesting than low-powered ones.  Whatever the flaws of the epic level D&D campaign I played (and believe me, there were plenty), the characters were all pretty interesting.  And not necessarily because they were played by outstanding roleplayers either.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkJimBob's GURPS games have characters start with 25CP, which any GURPS player will agree isn't very much at all.

It's more if you choose to have any Disadvantages at all

Quote from: SpikeAt 300 BP's a shadowrun character will only have 15 'stat points' to distribute among 8 stats.  That means that he isn't even average (average being 3's in every stat... this guy get's all 3 except for that one 2). The 200 BP guy is even worse off. He only gets to be average in two of his eight stats.

Would you play in a D&D game where you had to roll 2d6 for all your stats?  that's not low powered, that's fucking gimped. Even if you gave the players the ability to move dice out of one stat into another, they are still going to be horribly wrecked.

I agree with other posters, in that in my experience, power level doesn't matter a whole lot as far as role-playing.  Superhero games can have great characterization, but so can average joe games.  

I don't see a problem with 2d6 stats in D&D.  In the last D&D game that I game-mastered, the PCs were almost all 1st level kobolds -- who had to live by their wits (or fail to live in many cases) to prevent invading adventurers from wiping out their people.  I think average stat was around 8 or 9, which is a bit higher than 7, but I can see doing a lower-power game.  

If this is a dominant trend, I've pretty thoroughly missed it.  Most games still seem to me to be firmly in the heroic to superheroic range.

Quote from: jhkimI don't see a problem with 2d6 stats in D&D.  In the last D&D game that I game-mastered, the PCs were almost all 1st level kobolds -- who had to live by their wits (or fail to live in many cases) to prevent invading adventurers from wiping out their people.  I think average stat was around 8 or 9, which is a bit higher than 7, but I can see doing a lower-power game.  

It really depends on the environment.  Playing a group of kobolds with 2d6 stats in a kobold world is not so bad.  Playing a kobold with 2d6 stats in a human world might be a bit frustrating.  Playing a human with 2d6 stats in a human world is definitely frustrating.

QuoteIf this is a dominant trend, I've pretty thoroughly missed it.  Most games still seem to me to be firmly in the heroic to superheroic range.

I don't think it is a dominant trend.  I think it is definitely a trend, but a fairly isolated one.

Perhaps the GM is desiring a game with ingenuity through normal action rather than ingenuity through superpowers?  Perhaps it's a rebellion against splatbook bought rule-powers where ingenuity is sidelined for the next found "first person shooter gun"?

Quote from: Tyberious FunkIt really depends on the environment.  Playing a group of kobolds with 2d6 stats in a kobold world is not so bad.  Playing a kobold with 2d6 stats in a human world might be a bit frustrating.  Playing a human with 2d6 stats in a human world is definitely frustrating.

I would sort of agree with that, though with some qualifiers.  

In the game I ran, the kobolds were primarily fighting humans and demi-humans rather than interacting with other kobolds.  Then again, it was a one-shot adventure rather than a continuing campaign.  

I do generally have something to make the PCs special within the scope of the game.  Still, that doesn't need to be stats.  For example, I ran an extended campaign where the PCs were kids in a mainly adult world, but each kid did have a magical ability.  And the kobolds were the proud defenders of their warren.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkJimBob's GURPS games have characters start with 25CP, which any GURPS player will agree isn't very much at all.

Are you just speaking hypothetically using JimBobOz as an example of a certain type of GM, or this an actual example?  If so, then that's hilarious.  I think the guidelines suggest somewhere around that point value for a five-year-old-child -- what were you playing, kindergarteners?

:rotfl:

And we must note that JBOs recent game imploded when he wouldn't let them get away with anything fun...

I've played in to many games where the characters only option is to faun and bow and scrape to the NPCs - trying to negotiate from a position of weakness, attempting to wrangle concessions with no bargaining chips, to think that gimped PCs are fun.

I need something to work with, yknow.

Quote from: Erik BoielleAnd we must note that JBOs recent game imploded when he wouldn't let them get away with anything fun...

That was Unknown Armies, not GURPS. And I let them get away with far more than the rules recommended!

The GURPS game Tyberious Funk refers to, the characters began as 15 year olds. The game's guidelines are that children, etc are 25 CP and less, and that "ordinary folk" are 25-50 CP total. They were on the cusp of childhood and adulthood. The game also recommends that they have no more than half their CP total as Disadvantages, but they were allowed to have up to 40 CP in Disadvantages, and 5 Quirks. So they had the option of at up to 70CP of Skills, Advantages and Attributes. Everyone maxed out on Disavantages and Quirks except for one player, who took almost none. In addition, about 5CP was awarded for having a character image, and some kind of backstory.

And as humble as they began, they advanced quickly, getting 3-7CP per weekly three hour session - this seems to be about twice the usual rate, asking around other GURPS GMs. Then every fourth session or so, the PCs would settle in some place, and some years would pass - they'd get another 10CP then. On top of that, they were able to spend CP as "Hero Points", buying themselves successes, avoiding horrible fates due to the dice, etc. So each player could decide how gritty or cinematic it would be for them.

All these things were discussed with the players before the first session, and were either their idea, or they agreed to it - though some were more or less happy with various details than others. The making of this campaign in consultation with the players is discussed here.

"Low-powered" does not have to mean "bastard GM making them suffer horribly." In that campaign, the PCs achieved everything they set out to, though not always in the way they expected. They defeated all their enemies - some of them, multiple times - one became a Thane, another got a magic axe and slew a dragon, etc. The only PC death was when one PC slew another, as the other was trying to save the life of an NPC. The only PC maiming was when one player rolled a fumble - "spend Hero Point to avoid it?" "No" - and then rolled the result of striking themselves with their weapon -  "spend Hero Point to reroll?" "No" - and then rolled maximum damage - "spend Hero Point to reroll?" "No" - and cut their own arm off - "spend Hero Point to heal it to normal wound, not a crippling one?" "No". So that was essentially the player's choice to have that happen to their character.

Later each party member got a wish, and one of the other PCs wished the maimed character's arm back.

They worked pretty much as a team, and were intelligent and creative with their characters. So overall things went very well for them. The low power encouraged their creativity, and my openness to their input, and they to mine, meant they enjoyed themselves.  

Whereas with Unknown Armies, I began with a pre-written campaign, and said, "Does this look okay? Yes? Alright, let's do it." Obviously that worked badly for us. So I learned my lesson - the best campaigns for me are those I develop in direct consultation with the players. This has been hard to do recently, since the players don't have strong ideas about what they'd like. But still it's working okay. Better than stupid UA, anyway!

Quote from: JimBobOz"Low-powered" does not have to mean "bastard GM making them suffer horribly."

Well no, but it is very easy to end up with players feeling so outclassed they just can't see a way to do anything.

I've wasted to much time in games hiding out from the plot because its to damn dangerous to get involved with, and even if I did I wouldn't have the skills or resources to make an impact. Better to phone the cops and let them sort it out.

Silly. Better to play the cops who get phoned - it's their job, and they have the tools and the talent to sort it out.

That and I'm an un-reconstructed gamer - I get my stories from computer games and anime, so I need a spot of respect from the NPCs to play the plots I like.

Quote from: JimBobOzBetter than stupid UA, anyway!

It ain't the game JimBob :grumpy:

Regards,
David R

I know in third edition GURPS 25 CP's was for the average NPC wandering around, so that game could have felt like playing 0 level peasants in D&D. Obviously everyone had fun, so that's not an issue.

And in reality, for GURPS, a low point total isn't much of an issue, where you start with a baseline of competence. Everyone starts with average abilities.  The reoccuring comments that drove me to my rant were in Shadowrun, where you buy up from the absolute minimum.  With inadequate points even average stats are impossible.


And it's never been about the fact that I, or anyone, demands 'high powered play'.  I ran a Brave New World game when it was still reasonably popular. No one minded that their 'super powers' were often weak even compared to average technology, and compared to even a low powered comic book character they barely even registered. No body minded because the characters could still be competent in other areas.

As for boring characters making the game boring for everyone... you must play a lot different than I do, Jimbo.  My games tend to include a shitload of banter that has nothing to do with the game, and party jokes that occasionaly turn into in game behaviors.  The PLAYERS personalities are much more important than their supposed character personalities. Would I like a little more 'in character focus'? Certainly, but I wouldn't say we aren't having a blast playing.  Hell, my players could be playing Azathoth, Cthulu and Hastur and we'd probably be having the same amount of fun.... Now doesn't that sound like a campaign idea!!!:p

Oh, I've definitely met GMs who run games in the "Gimpy" style.  I've met one who ran Marvel Super Heroes and didn't want anyone to have any stats higher than Excellent while simultaneously wanting to throw heavy hitter badguys against the PCs.  I joined a Robotech group once only to find out that the GM didn't want to let the players have mecha because "they're too powerful."  Instead, everyone traveled in a jeep, even Veritech and Destroid pilots. I also imagine every D&D GM I've ever met who runs the infamous "you're naked in a 10x10x10 cell" also fits into the mold.

Some don't want the PCs to be more powerful than the NPCs.  Others want to run slaughterfest adventures.  Some just don't have a clue.  There are only two common elements.  The first one is a desire to control the players' power.  They don't want the PCs to be able to do anything of significance.  They want the world to manipulate the PCs, not the other way around.  All of them are more or less heavy railroaders.  The other common thread is that Gimpy GMs aren't worth wasting time with.