Anybody have a copy of this game?

I was intrigued by something someone said on that Circvs board, but I haven't been able to find any more information (or a copy of the game, for that matter).

Quotemaldur wrote:

Concepts to steal from rpg's for other rpg's

Undergrounds "changing" the world system

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el Fucktardo wrote:

Yes. The system in question fro Underground is a brilliant piece that should be adapted to every other game under the sun in some role or another. It is particularly appropriate for games like Vampire, Werewolf & Mage, and of course for CyberPunk games where making a "difference" is something people try for.

The rest of the book, however, feel free to use as hamster cage liner.

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Grue wrote:

Underground was a cyberpunk-like dystopian setting (all the characters were envisioned to be mustered out combat vets who were recruited, genetically altered, and trained by conflict firms) which set up seven parameters of a definable community that the hero's could alter by doing their thing and spending 'reward' points. The bigger the community (from neighborhood, city, state, to country) the more expensive it was to shift the parameters. The seven parameters were Wealth, Safety, Government Purity, Quality of Life, Education, Necessities, and Take Home Pay.

The thing was if you wanted to permanently alter a parameter (so it wouldn't fall back to it's original level eventually) it cost 5 times the reward point cost. Also altering one of the communities parameters effected two others, sending one up and one down. So if you increased Wealth you increased Safety as well but decreased Government Purity. To avoid that you had to spend three times the reward points. Very cyberpunky in that regard

Don't know how Maldur used it for a fantasy setting (and I haven't), but I suppose you could tweak it a bit to reflect a more medieval setting...maybe categories like Nobility (Wealth), Church/Religion (Education), Peasantry (Necessities), Guild (Take home Pay), Arcane (Quality of Life), Corruption (Government Purity) and keep Safety the same (or call it Monsters or something).

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I wrote:

So, how do you work it in Underworld? Every time they gain a level, the group decides to raise one of those areas -- is that right?

How would you determine which is the second area to be raised by a point? And which area is lowered by a point? Is it random, or are they interconnected in a pre-set manner?

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maldur wrote:

If I remember correctly, you gain some kind of build point that you can spend on skills and such. You can also use them to cement in game actions to improve (or decrease) the areas (usually a city) characteristics. The problem is that if you raise one characteristic, you might decrease another. To stop this you need to use twice the normal points when you cement your actions.

...then I gave up trying to dig information out of them.

Anyone know what I'm talking about?

I think Drivethrurpg has pdfs available.

Parameters and How To Use Them

Remember, Underground is about heroism and changing the world.  To help the GM chart the vets' progress, we've created seven special categories known as Parameters that the GM can use to monitor the current state of 2021 society.  The seven Parameters are: Wealth, Safety, Government Purity, Quality of Life, Education, Necessities, and Take Home Pay.  Each of the Parameters is rated on a scale of 1-20.  A high score (above 15) represents an area in which society is truly stable.  A low score (below 5) represents an area in which society is troubled.

Note that Parameters can be used to describe society on any imaginable scale.  In other words, a neighborhood in Watts has a set of Parameters, the city of Los Angeles has another set, the State of California has another set, and the United States has still another set.  Each locale's Parameters reflect conditions for the average resident of that locale.  In other words, the Parameter ratings in Watts are truly abysmal while those of the United States are just bad, despite the fact that Watts is a part of the US.

Wealth: measures the amount of money available to the average citizen.  Areas with a high Wealth parameter are generally the home of upper-class jet-setters.  [Long Island, NY: 16; Bel Aire, CA: 18; Watts, CA: 4; USA: 7]

Safety: measures the lack of violence and criminals in the society.  [Los Angeles, CA: 5; Watts, CA: 2; Washington DC: 15; Luna: 5; USA: 7]

Government Purity: measures the lack of corruption among police officers and government officials.  [Washington DC: 3, Los Angeles, CA: 5, USA: 5]

Quality of Life: measures the happiness of the people in the society.  [Los Angeles, CA: 4; Washington DC: 10; Long Island, NY: 17; USA: 9]

Education: measures the intelligence of the people in the society.  [Los Angeles, CA: 6; any pre-frontal ghetto: 2; Washington DC: 14; USA: 8]

Necessities: measures the society's access to food, medicine, and other necessities of life.  [Los Angeles, CA: 6; most veteran ghettos: 5; Washington DC: 13; USA: 11]

and Take Home Pay: measures the amount of the average citizen's income that is not swallowed up by the government.  [Lost Angeles, CA: 10, Bel Aire, CA: 6; USA: 9]

How to Use the Parameters

During play, the vets can temporarily alter the Parameters of the societies in which they operate by completing stories.  As soon as the players set their Campaign Goal, the GM should set the Parameter ratings for the society the veterans are trying to effect.  The GM should then set the Parameter levels necessary for the veterans to complete the goal.  The difference between the society's original Parameter levels and the Parameter levels necessary for the completion of a goal should depend upon the magnitude of the accomplishment.  Taking down a small-time criminal or seizing control of a very small government agency might require the levels to change by a couple of points, but overthrowing the US Government would require massive [10 point changes] in several of the Parameters.

Example:  The players decided that they'd like to eliminate the AIDS problem in Los Angeles County.  The current Parameter levels in LA County are Wealth: 8, Safety: 5, Government Purity: 5, Quality of Life: 4, Education 6, Necessities: 6, and Take Home Pay: 10.  The GM decides that the barriers that stand in the way of the AIDS problem are government corruption [tax dollars being misappropriated], corresponding to the Government Purity Parameter; insufficient access to medical care, corresponding to the Necessities Parameter; improper AIDS education, corresponding to the Education Parameter; and not enough available tax funds, corresponding to the Take Home Pay Parameter.  Because ending the AIDS problem is a fairly staggering achievement, the GM decides the Parameters necessary for success as follows: Government Purity: 10; Necessities: 9; Education: 9; and Take Home Pay: 9.  Note the Take Home Pay Parameter must be decreased for success because lower Take Home Pay means there is more tax revenue available to the government.

Every time the players spend a certain Reward Point total, they can attempt to alter one of the society's Parameters by one level.  Note that the players may only make such an attempt if they can suggest an appropriate story that would lead to the change, and the attempt only succeeds if the story is successfully completed.  In other words, if the players want to increase the Wealth Parameter, they must present the GM with a reasonable idea for a story that might explain the increase, such as "what if we helped an honest investor take over that crooked corporation on the other side of town, allowing the corp to put more honest folk to work."  If possible, this story suggestion should be connected to the Campaign Goal.  If our vets pursuing the eradication of AIDS wanted to increase the Education parameter for instance, they might suggest "what if we tapped into the broadcast of the Super Bowl and temporarily replaced it with an AIDS awareness message?"

The exact Total necessary to attempt a Parameter change depends upon the size of the society affected, as follows:

Neighborhood: 20 Reward Points
City/County: 40 Reward Points
State: 100 Reward Points
Country: 200 Reward Points

Of course, there is a catch.  Every time the players alter a Parameter Level, two other levels are automatically altered as well [one Parameter level increases and another decreases].  Refer to the following chart.

 
If the Players Increases]-Wealth
Increases- Safety
Decreases- Government Purity
 
If the Players Increases]-Safety
Increases-  Necessities
Decreases- Quality of Life
 
If the Players Increases]-Government Purity
Increases-  Take Home Pay
Decreases- Safety
 
If the Players Increases]-Quality of Life
Increases-  Government Purity
Decreases- Education
 
If the Players Increases]-Education
Increases- Wealth
Decreases- Take Home Pay
 
If the Players Increases]-Necessities
Increases-  Quality of Life
Decreases- Wealth
 
If the Players Increases]-Take Home Pay
Increases-  Education
Decreases- Necessities
 


If the players are attempting to decrease a Parameter Level, simply reverse the results above.  Decreasing Safety, for example, decreases Necessities and increases Quality of Life.

Note that these automatic alterations can either move the players closer to or further from their goals, depending upon the circumstances.  A group trying to increase both Education and Wealth, for example, can kill two birds with one stone.

The only way to avoid these mandatory bumps is for the players to spend triple the required number of Reward Points, before attempting to alter a Parameter.

Example: Our AIDS crusaders decide to break into the Super Bowl transmission to increase Education.  If they spend 40 Reward Points to make this attempt, once Education rises, Wealth will rise and Take Home Pay will fall.  If they spend 120 points, however, they can alter Education While leaving Wealth and Take Home Pay unchanged.

Good GMs will reflect the changes in Parameter Levels within the stories they create, and might even draw inspiration for entire stories from Parameter changes.  For example, if Safety is decreasing, random thugs and gang members will probably start showing up with greater regularity.  Similarly, the GM might interpret a decrease in Government Purity to indicate that a new corrupt politician has appeared on the scene, perhaps inspiring a few workable outlines.

Similarly, the GM should feel free to arbitrarily alter the society Parameters based upon campaign events she is planning or the unexpected outcome of a story.  For instance, right in the middle of a campaign, the GM might decide that an epidemic of a rare South American disease strikes the city, lowering Quality of Life by 2 levels.  Or, should President Foster unexpectedly die during one of the group's stories, the GM should raise and lower all sorts of Parameter levels as appropriate.

Achieving the Campaign Goal

Once the group makes an attempt at the final alteration they need to achieve their goal, the GM should create and run a story that finally allows the group to achieve the Campaign Goal.  Once the goal has been achieved, the players then select a new goal and the whole procedure starts all over again.  Once a Goal has been completed, the society's altered Parameters return to their beginning values and the whole thing starts all over again.

Optionally, the players can permanently alter a Parameter by spending five times the normal Reward Point cost of doing so.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=313_314

Sweet, thanks!  That's a HECK of a lot more than I could find with a Google search! :win:

Bonus thanks on the link, too.

Ah, Underground... what a great game.  A shame I could never a group together to run it for.  Maybe it's time for me to dust off the rulebook and all the supplements and give it another try.

Quote from: KnightskyAh, Underground... what a great game.

Really?  I heard it was crap except for the, uh...structural system...thingy.  You know:  That stuff I asked about at the top of the thread.

--Still haven't got a copy Spikey

Quote from: AlgoleiReally?  I heard it was crap except for the, uh...structural system...thingy.  You know:  That stuff I asked about at the top of the thread.

--Still haven't got a copy Spikey

Hmm.... I didn't really consider it worse mechanically than Cyberpunk and I considered it slightly better than at least the first two editions of Shadowrun in that area.  The rulebook's colorful and there's alot of tongue in cheek stuff.  Gotta love an 'iconic' like Daddy Warcrimes too.   It's just one of those games that I didn't play\run very much but I don't regret the purchase.

Quote from: AlgoleiReally?  I heard it was crap except for the, uh...structural system...thingy.  You know:  That stuff I asked about at the top of the thread.

Tastes vary, of course, but if your preferences run toward the darkly satirical, then I think it's frellin' brilliant.

Besides, what other game is going to give you a cannibalistc fast-food chain named Tastee Ghoul?  :deviousgrin:

One of the sourcebooks (Player's Guide or something like that?) even had a Tastee Ghoul ad in it, explaining the cycle of life: You buy a TG burger, TG gets money, TG sponsors third-world wars with that money, the wars generate veterans, veterans come home and kill people, those people get turned into TG burgers!

IIRC Mayfair's still selling the ENTIRE Underground line for 100bucks or so (someone over on another site got it that way lamentably I only have the core rules and not 100bucks)

It's one of my fun little favorites (exception to the cannibalism, which was one of the things that kept it from being in my top ten actually.)

Of course I had a blast with the game (running and playing it ) --nothing like a game where people collect and sell used brass (from firefights) and ammo for guns can be bought in vending machines either..

Well, that's what I get for listening to the first five people who mention it.  I KNEW I shoulda bought it when I saw it on the 15%-off rack.

Quote from: AlgoleiWell, that's what I get for listening to the first five people who mention it.  I KNEW I shoulda bought it when I saw it on the 15%-off rack.

Ever read Marshall Law comics? Heard of em? Underground is sort of like "What if the U.S had their own Marshall Law style setting" and then made it into an RPG.

Quote from: SilverlionEver read Marshall Law comics? Heard of em? Underground is sort of like "What if the U.S had their own Marshall Law style setting" and then made it into an RPG.

That's right.  The US got into a series of nasty wars, and created 'super-soldiers' (genetically re-engineered soldiers) to go off and fight their wars for them.  But, the wars ended, and the veterans came home, and were literally dumped on the streets.  Most of them had mental problems of one sort or another, partly from the surgery, and partly from their experiences in the war.  Furthermore, many of them were heavily armed, and had considerable skills in killing their fellow man.  So what's an unemployed superhuman killing machine to do?  Some form gangs, others find employment in the underworld, others are hired by the government to do various shit work, or become mercenaries or whatever.

Superheroes?  Get real!  That's for comic books!

Woot! Let the punishment fit the crime.

Quote from: SigmundWoot! Let the punishment fit the crime.

Yep.  The Crime Doctor is IN.