Quote from: oggsmash on June 30, 2021, 03:13:42 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on June 30, 2021, 01:57:33 PM
In terms of investment, I'd already have the writing done before I even launched any crowdfunding or investment pitch and most of the budget I was seeking was mostly to cover the cost of additional commissioned art, a professional copy editor, some miscellaneous web/legal fees before the official launch, and the cost of an initial print run for the backers (and the crowdfunder's percentage obviously).

The only "gimmicks" I had in mind were immediate draft pdf copies for backers (basically proof the product isn't vaporware), names in the backers section and physical/pdf copies of the final product.

If crowdfunding isn't going to work, I've already sunk all the funding I'd need into the tools to do the art myself (commissioned work was mostly a way to speed up production), forego the professional editor for the first printing, eat the legal/web fees and skip any initial backer print run.

Doing all the art myself would be a delay, but would keep my own investment to mostly time if I'm foregoing crowdfunding. As the saying goes, you can have any two of fast, cheap or good; your choice. Crowdfunding would mean I could afford fast and good. My second choice is good and cheap (minimal additional personal investment in this case), which if I'm not beholden to backers, is also doable.

  If you could give me scale for amounts that would be good to know.  Meaning, if you had more to work with at the beginning, what amount would make it possible to leverage a better product; 1k, 5k, 10k, 15k, more?  That is more the lines of what I wonder.

I'd guestimate that if I do all the art myself I'm looking at about $10k overall including the copy editor, a basic website with the marketplace and forum tools, the basic art assets, incorporation legal fees and other sundries. Skipping the copy editor drops me to about $7k, mostly in the website design/plug-ins and design software.

If I were to do crowdfunding for a 3rd party art budget that could run anywhere from $8-10k for line art (I have A LOT of art in what amounts to two books totaling almost 700 pages) to the $30k range for entirely full-color interior art being done by a 3rd party.

This is why art-style was going to be the primary stretch goal for crowdfunding... funding at the basic level means line art while a higher tier means better interior art quality.

Throw in the crowdfunding site's take and a little slop for unexpected expenses and I'd say $25k for my base project (two c. 350 page books with 3rd party art), bumped up to about $45k for a 2000 unit print run (1000 of each) to fulfill the initial crowdfunding pledges with a stretch goal probably around the $70-75k range for the full color stretch goal.

Maybe. Honestly, beyond listing out items I know I'll need to budget for, I'm mostly focused on finishing out the writing itself and with the way inflation is going any budget I make now could be blown out by prices in six months. Writing first so I'm not marketing the vaporware promise of a game; then all stuff it'll take to actually get it out there.

If I skip the crowdfunding (so no pre-order printing commitment) and do the art myself I'm looking at an overall expenditure of about $7k with most of that already spent on website development and art software/assets. Oh, and at least another year of just me slamming out art in my free time (if I did one piece a day without a break I could probably do it in 6 months, but I'm going to be realistic because I've hit a burnout wall a few times in this project already and a couple weeks of daily output followed by a week of little to no output is far more likely).

If I decided to say "screw it" and just release the whole thing as a free PDF with the art I've already got done I'd be out about $5k, mostly for work already completed on the website and about $2k of art software I'll get personal enjoyment out of eventually anyway.

  So, if you you were funded to the tune of 50k, it would be possible to get two print runs of 350 page books done?  Assuming black and white.  I have no idea how PDF sales go, but what would you sell a book with that page count for?  30-40 bucks?

I don't think charitable donations make any sense, and real investors are likely to be scarce, but the patron model is solid. While I doubt many authors will find solitary rich benefactors, the distributed crowd-sourced version, as exemplified by Patreon, seems to work. It's pretty popular among Youtube personalities and authors/artists, and some RPG authors use it, though I don't know how much money they make. The problem is you have to be established with a pre-existing fanbase, and it's designed around a steady income based on a steady releases. It's not as good for newbies or special projects, which are more suited for Kickstarter or IndieGoGo.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 30, 2021, 10:56:58 AM
   It starts to look more and more like many things from food we buy to games we play are drifting towards a separate economy in how they function.  Right now, the fact is you better do as told or certain things, heck even your ability to bank can be removed.  This I do not think is sustainable, and something else is going to surface.  To this end, have any of the people who produce rpg materials made any moves towards seeking backers more in the form of actual investors versus people they presell to and offer more goodies?   

   I realize the end return for said investors is likely to be small, or something that even with a tiny fraction of a royalty may not pay off for a decade.  I also think there could be a desire among some of the people who might invest to see something being built, improved and made into something lasting (the idea of planting a tree you never get to enjoy the shade from) versus making 10 percent per year off of initial investment. 

   I get that there are crowd funding platforms, but to be honest they look as if they are going to function based off of silicone valley ideals in the longer run all the way through.  I do think the internet is a great way to network, and I wonder how many creatives/developers look for actual investment through their sites/blogs/ the internet in general.

This is super easy to deal with. If you run a business or represent the business in public, don't say stupid shit to the public.

That's it. That's the only rule.

It's the same rule which existed in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990, 2000s, and 2010s. It's just ordinary public relations. Don't say stupid shit.

And "stupid shit" has always included "stuff which is likely to alienate a meaningful portion of your customer base." If a meaningful portion of your customer base is, I don't know, afraid of the Soviet Union nuking your country, then don't say things in support of the Soviet Union (keep that to your private conversations if it's what you believed). If a meaningful portion of your customer base supports gay marriage, then don't say things against gay marriage (keep that to your private conversations if it's what you believe). You want to say this stuff to your friends over a beer, fine. But don't tweet it, don't post it to Facebook, don't Instagram it, don't say it in an interview, don't say it on a convention panel. This is just ordinary bog standard public relations. Your representations to your customers should not be anything political in nature which might piss off a meaningful portion of your customer base, unless you're running a political company.

Now that changes if your "branding" yourself as a right-winger or a left-winger, like a few people have done. But if that's the plan, lean into that and expect to deal with the flak from the other side. Don't say it and then puss out the moment the expected anger from the other side rears it's ugly head. Because now you're back into the "saying stupid shit" category.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 30, 2021, 03:19:14 PM
  Matter of fact, anyone in the industry (tech or RPG) have an idea what it would cost to get a distribution portal up and running?

From the tech side, I've considered it. The basic tech to get something like that running is relatively trivial for someone that knows what they are doing, especially if it isn't done in a hurry.  Given some time, I could do it solo.  Where the problems (and spiraling costs come in):

- Hosting.  Keeping a robust server up 24/7 ideally should be done with a hosting provider.  Problem is, that puts you at the mercy of certain tech people, many of whom would be happy to shut you down.  You can do that yourself, but now you are running servers that aren't really paying for themselves until you've got significant volume.  A small portal with occasional down time among a circle of hobbyist?  Sure.

-  Handling payments and shipping.  Two different things, but I put them here because this is the kind of thing you really want to outsource because of the special knowledge required.  Especially, if you want to handle international payments and shipping.  Some of the outsourcing people want to shut you down if they don't like you.  Given a small enough volume you might be handle both with EBay, though that will sharply limit who will do business with you.

- Maintaining an IP domain and security certificates and site security.  A certain amount of outsourcing is required.  Some of these people don't like you and will shut you down.

- Offsite backups.  This can be handled, crudely, solo with a trusted friend (that doesn't have to be IT savvy).  It's work that would better be handled with cloud outsourcing. Most of the people that do that don't like you and will be happy to shut you down. 

- You need a bank account to put the money.  Even some of the banks don't like you and will be happy to shut you down.

- God help you if want a mobile app.  Not that the apps are all that hard, but again, a lot of the people involved want to shut you down.

You might have noticed a theme in the answers above. 

None of these hurdles are insurmountable.  However, they are real hurdles, that will either cause a lot of extra work for the people building and running the thing or the customers or both.  Or will you leave you vulnerable to being shut down.  It only takes one weak link in the tech for you to have a major monkey wrench tossed into the engine at a bad time.

The base cost for a free lance, very simple implementation, might be in the order of $50,000 to $100,000, depending on the features and robustness of the system.  (That's a very off the cuff, rough estimate.) If I were doing it in my spare time, I certainly wouldn't charge much less than $50,000, and I'd make not much per hour once you take out the overhead and taxes.  All those hurdles could easily increase the work by a factor of 5 or more.   

I would suggest a better course would be the building of a competing Patron platform (since Patreon is also starting to make noises about shutting people down and has already done it a few times).  Then build organically around that platform, slowly, as discovered, features that make all the participants lives a little easier. 

Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 06:46:59 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 30, 2021, 10:56:58 AM
   It starts to look more and more like many things from food we buy to games we play are drifting towards a separate economy in how they function.  Right now, the fact is you better do as told or certain things, heck even your ability to bank can be removed.  This I do not think is sustainable, and something else is going to surface.  To this end, have any of the people who produce rpg materials made any moves towards seeking backers more in the form of actual investors versus people they presell to and offer more goodies?   

   I realize the end return for said investors is likely to be small, or something that even with a tiny fraction of a royalty may not pay off for a decade.  I also think there could be a desire among some of the people who might invest to see something being built, improved and made into something lasting (the idea of planting a tree you never get to enjoy the shade from) versus making 10 percent per year off of initial investment. 

   I get that there are crowd funding platforms, but to be honest they look as if they are going to function based off of silicone valley ideals in the longer run all the way through.  I do think the internet is a great way to network, and I wonder how many creatives/developers look for actual investment through their sites/blogs/ the internet in general.

This is super easy to deal with. If you run a business or represent the business in public, don't say stupid shit to the public.

That's it. That's the only rule.

It's the same rule which existed in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990, 2000s, and 2010s. It's just ordinary public relations. Don't say stupid shit.

And "stupid shit" has always included "stuff which is likely to alienate a meaningful portion of your customer base." If a meaningful portion of your customer base is, I don't know, afraid of the Soviet Union nuking your country, then don't say things in support of the Soviet Union (keep that to your private conversations if it's what you believed). If a meaningful portion of your customer base supports gay marriage, then don't say things against gay marriage (keep that to your private conversations if it's what you believe). You want to say this stuff to your friends over a beer, fine. But don't tweet it, don't post it to Facebook, don't Instagram it, don't say it in an interview, don't say it on a convention panel. This is just ordinary bog standard public relations. Your representations to your customers should not be anything political in nature which might piss off a meaningful portion of your customer base, unless you're running a political company.

Now that changes if your "branding" yourself as a right-winger or a left-winger, like a few people have done. But if that's the plan, lean into that and expect to deal with the flak from the other side. Don't say it and then puss out the moment the expected anger from the other side rears it's ugly head. Because now you're back into the "saying stupid shit" category.

And there's the major problem. The NFL can say something idiotic like "Football is Gay!" and receive very little pushback, none of it particularly troublesome. The "rules" are not consistent, because different people think different things are "stupid shit". With a very noticeable partisan leaning on certain topics.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 06:46:59 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 30, 2021, 10:56:58 AM
   It starts to look more and more like many things from food we buy to games we play are drifting towards a separate economy in how they function.  Right now, the fact is you better do as told or certain things, heck even your ability to bank can be removed.  This I do not think is sustainable, and something else is going to surface.  To this end, have any of the people who produce rpg materials made any moves towards seeking backers more in the form of actual investors versus people they presell to and offer more goodies?   

   I realize the end return for said investors is likely to be small, or something that even with a tiny fraction of a royalty may not pay off for a decade.  I also think there could be a desire among some of the people who might invest to see something being built, improved and made into something lasting (the idea of planting a tree you never get to enjoy the shade from) versus making 10 percent per year off of initial investment. 

   I get that there are crowd funding platforms, but to be honest they look as if they are going to function based off of silicone valley ideals in the longer run all the way through.  I do think the internet is a great way to network, and I wonder how many creatives/developers look for actual investment through their sites/blogs/ the internet in general.

This is super easy to deal with. If you run a business or represent the business in public, don't say stupid shit to the public.

That's it. That's the only rule.

It's the same rule which existed in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990, 2000s, and 2010s. It's just ordinary public relations. Don't say stupid shit.

And "stupid shit" has always included "stuff which is likely to alienate a meaningful portion of your customer base." If a meaningful portion of your customer base is, I don't know, afraid of the Soviet Union nuking your country, then don't say things in support of the Soviet Union (keep that to your private conversations if it's what you believed). If a meaningful portion of your customer base supports gay marriage, then don't say things against gay marriage (keep that to your private conversations if it's what you believe). You want to say this stuff to your friends over a beer, fine. But don't tweet it, don't post it to Facebook, don't Instagram it, don't say it in an interview, don't say it on a convention panel. This is just ordinary bog standard public relations. Your representations to your customers should not be anything political in nature which might piss off a meaningful portion of your customer base, unless you're running a political company.

Now that changes if your "branding" yourself as a right-winger or a left-winger, like a few people have done. But if that's the plan, lean into that and expect to deal with the flak from the other side. Don't say it and then puss out the moment the expected anger from the other side rears it's ugly head. Because now you're back into the "saying stupid shit" category.

    Not really in any way my question.  But I do appreciate the solution to something I did not ask about, or even hint around.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 30, 2021, 07:41:16 PM
And there's the major problem. The NFL can say something idiotic like "Football is Gay!" and receive very little pushback, none of it particularly troublesome. The "rules" are not consistent, because different people think different things are "stupid shit". With a very noticeable partisan leaning on certain topics.

I have been saying Football is gay for years.

Come on, take off all the pads and play like real men ya pussies.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on June 30, 2021, 07:00:13 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 30, 2021, 03:19:14 PM
  Matter of fact, anyone in the industry (tech or RPG) have an idea what it would cost to get a distribution portal up and running?

From the tech side, I've considered it. The basic tech to get something like that running is relatively trivial for someone that knows what they are doing, especially if it isn't done in a hurry.  Given some time, I could do it solo.  Where the problems (and spiraling costs come in):

- Hosting.  Keeping a robust server up 24/7 ideally should be done with a hosting provider.  Problem is, that puts you at the mercy of certain tech people, many of whom would be happy to shut you down.  You can do that yourself, but now you are running servers that aren't really paying for themselves until you've got significant volume.  A small portal with occasional down time among a circle of hobbyist?  Sure.

-  Handling payments and shipping.  Two different things, but I put them here because this is the kind of thing you really want to outsource because of the special knowledge required.  Especially, if you want to handle international payments and shipping.  Some of the outsourcing people want to shut you down if they don't like you.  Given a small enough volume you might be handle both with EBay, though that will sharply limit who will do business with you.

- Maintaining an IP domain and security certificates and site security.  A certain amount of outsourcing is required.  Some of these people don't like you and will shut you down.

- Offsite backups.  This can be handled, crudely, solo with a trusted friend (that doesn't have to be IT savvy).  It's work that would better be handled with cloud outsourcing. Most of the people that do that don't like you and will be happy to shut you down. 

- You need a bank account to put the money.  Even some of the banks don't like you and will be happy to shut you down.

- God help you if want a mobile app.  Not that the apps are all that hard, but again, a lot of the people involved want to shut you down.

You might have noticed a theme in the answers above. 

None of these hurdles are insurmountable.  However, they are real hurdles, that will either cause a lot of extra work for the people building and running the thing or the customers or both.  Or will you leave you vulnerable to being shut down.  It only takes one weak link in the tech for you to have a major monkey wrench tossed into the engine at a bad time.

The base cost for a free lance, very simple implementation, might be in the order of $50,000 to $100,000, depending on the features and robustness of the system.  (That's a very off the cuff, rough estimate.) If I were doing it in my spare time, I certainly wouldn't charge much less than $50,000, and I'd make not much per hour once you take out the overhead and taxes.  All those hurdles could easily increase the work by a factor of 5 or more.   

I would suggest a better course would be the building of a competing Patron platform (since Patreon is also starting to make noises about shutting people down and has already done it a few times).  Then build organically around that platform, slowly, as discovered, features that make all the participants lives a little easier.

  It seems the server load/size of a patreon-like platform would have more issues and work than a sales portal/site.  I feel an on site server is a better path than hosting and cloud resources (since the biggest game in town has a directly competing business, and loves to kill comp it doesnt look to me they would have to look hard for reasons to shut you down) but I do see where it is going to take time to recoup those costs.   100k doesnt seem that bad at all, and in the ballpark of what I expected.  I do have some worries about outsource talent bickering about who can be put on the same "shelf" with them and looking to toss flak at a provider (one talent trying to get a mob up around a site hosting an "untouchable"), but I have no idea how real a problem that is. 

Quote from: Shasarak on June 30, 2021, 08:49:28 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 30, 2021, 07:41:16 PM
And there's the major problem. The NFL can say something idiotic like "Football is Gay!" and receive very little pushback, none of it particularly troublesome. The "rules" are not consistent, because different people think different things are "stupid shit". With a very noticeable partisan leaning on certain topics.

I have been saying Football is gay for years.

Come on, take off all the pads and play like real men ya pussies.

   The pads do not dull the hits, and encourage hitting in a way you cannot, and would not do without them.   Now, if you have ever had to play Center though, you will feel as if you are being violated a bit, and a case for gay that has nothing to do with pads could be made to you.  Lots of dudes REALLY seem to enjoy celebrating a good play with an ass slap too, something I never understood; but looking back I do note that it was only ONE guy on our team who was so zealous with his "congrats".

I've wondered about these things myself.  I've got stuff I'd like to produce or publish but I've got some history on a certain site that I suspect puts me on their list.  And it's a site that's very influential in the hobby.

Anyhow, I'm not overly fond of the kickstarter model but it seems to be the main way people make their money in the small press these days.  It plays well with the whole cult of novelty thing.  I'd rather have a steady stream of sales from a personal site than an occasional big lump from a crowd funding drive.  I'd rather sell products I have than products I'm dreaming of.

The advantages of access to the market with kickstarter, patreon, and drivethru rpg are clear but it's also a way to get completely lost in the crowd and be at the mercy of ideological forces that are just looking for people to cancel.

Mistwell is also forgetting that the current narrative isn't just 'don't say stupid shit'.

You must make obeisance to the proper powers. You must validate their existence. Or you are a bigot.

Segregation is the next logical step in the culture war as wrongthinkers are forced out of the mainstream. And that's a good thing.

I'm a big believer in everyone's Right to Free Assembly. We all have the right to spend our free time among "our own", however we define "our own."

Andrew Torba, the founder of Gab, talks extensively about the need for a separate economy and he's working on GabTV as a "new YouTube" although there's already Rumble, Odysee and BitChute as free speech options. Mike Lindell of MyPillow is launching MyStore to create his own Amazon. Right now, MyStore looks like Amazon in its first year and we'll see what happens next.

As for RPGs, right now DriveThruRPG and Amazon POD are availble for small publishers, even if they are deplorable gun & Bible clinging neo-nutzi monsters hated by the Twatterati. How long will that last? Who knows.

What needs to occur is a MAGAcon as Chris24601 mentioned in the GenCon thread:

Quote from: Chris24601 on June 30, 2021, 03:56:13 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on June 30, 2021, 12:25:07 AM
LOL.

There clearly needs to be Make Fantasy Great Again OSR RPG Con.

No need to limit it to just Fantasy. There's plenty of good non-woke rpg of numerous genres out there. Limiting it to JUST Fantasy or just OSR is just playing to the Woke divide-and-conquer strategy.

So open it up to all non-woke games/players and call it the "Make Adventuring Great Again Convention" or MAGACon for short. 

He's probably right.

I'm partial to OSR-only cons because I'd love a small 300-500 person gathering.

However, MAGAcon might attract a few thousand in a red state that Trump won...like Georgia or Arizona.

I have zero idea if any of Trump's family play games. It would be a hoot to find out that Don Jr. or Eric were D&D players as teens and have them as guests of honor.

Oh, the free publicity would be REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEtastic.

Going towards an investment model has a lot of pitfalls (including much more complex regulation) than simply selling a product to someone. To my knowledge SubscribeStar (Patreon alternative) and GiveSendGo (Kickstarter/IndieGoGo alternative) have proven censorship-resistant, so are worthwhile options for connecting people's wallets to creators & businesses.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 06:46:59 PM
This is super easy to deal with. If you run a business or represent the business in public, don't say stupid shit to the public.

That's it. That's the only rule.

Not really unfortunately. Granted, the scope of RPGs is usually pretty small, so you're likely to run under the radar for awhile. Take a look at Amazon's media rules: You're not longer allowed to create a movie/TV product without 50% representation by women, and your product must contain every ethnicity, sexuality, furries, etc. Similar things are happening in other industries and in many cases metrics of this sort are being directly tied to viability for investments, grants, stock valuation, etc.

It's like that Pepe picture with the SJW noosed up, ready to be hung, and Pepe is saying 'Why did you make me do this? I just wanted to play video games...'

That's all I wanna do. Roll some dice, have some laughs. I'm not interested in exploring someone's deep psych issues or how they're pissed because Mommy and Daddy made them go to church on Sundays and they're bitter about it.