It starts to look more and more like many things from food we buy to games we play are drifting towards a separate economy in how they function.  Right now, the fact is you better do as told or certain things, heck even your ability to bank can be removed.  This I do not think is sustainable, and something else is going to surface.  To this end, have any of the people who produce rpg materials made any moves towards seeking backers more in the form of actual investors versus people they presell to and offer more goodies?   

   I realize the end return for said investors is likely to be small, or something that even with a tiny fraction of a royalty may not pay off for a decade.  I also think there could be a desire among some of the people who might invest to see something being built, improved and made into something lasting (the idea of planting a tree you never get to enjoy the shade from) versus making 10 percent per year off of initial investment. 

   I get that there are crowd funding platforms, but to be honest they look as if they are going to function based off of silicone valley ideals in the longer run all the way through.  I do think the internet is a great way to network, and I wonder how many creatives/developers look for actual investment through their sites/blogs/ the internet in general.

Dan Bongino just announced the launch of a 'nonaligned' payment processor, in the wake of people getting frozen out of such over political leanings (especially conservatives). Whether it'll survive is the question, but the only restriction is that it cannot be used for criminal purposes (which is... kind of a given).

I would also expect to see credit union type setups that are specific business oriented as opposed to locality.  More people were paying attention to Chokepoint than I think they realized.

  I get that, my thoughts are more along RPG specific answers.  I get the feeling that with WOTC firstly being a massive (compared to everyone else in RPGs) business, they do what they can to crush competition, and invoking the woke is a damned good way to pull that off these days and never have to hire one lawyer.  I was more inquiring if any of the smaller outfits, or individuals out there ever look for investors, hell Angel investor might be appropriate here.   I see people offering pre sales and such, but I can not ever remember seeing a creative looking for actual investors (they all seem to assume people playing RPGs are broke, and maybe lots are, but I get a feeling there are also lots of them who have resources (good careers, investments, etc) and might be willing.  I never see anyone really ask, but I may be in the wrong places to ever see it. 

     I remember the golden rule, if you never A S K, you will never G E T.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 30, 2021, 11:20:34 AM
  I get that, my thoughts are more along RPG specific answers.  I get the feeling that with WOTC firstly being a massive (compared to everyone else in RPGs) business, they do what they can to crush competition, and invoking the woke is a damned good way to pull that off these days and never have to hire one lawyer.  I was more inquiring if any of the smaller outfits, or individuals out there ever look for investors, hell Angel investor might be appropriate here.   I see people offering pre sales and such, but I can not ever remember seeing a creative looking for actual investors (they all seem to assume people playing RPGs are broke, and maybe lots are, but I get a feeling there are also lots of them who have resources (good careers, investments, etc) and might be willing.  I never see anyone really ask, but I may be in the wrong places to ever see it. 

     I remember the golden rule, if you never A S K, you will never G E T.

My bad. I had just seen the article about AlignPay and it immediately sprang to mind.

Part of the problem with seeking investment is that you have to show a return on investment. That's tricky with RPGs.

The ROI is a problem in the case of RPGs.  Maybe if you can get people who view it more as a 'donation'...effectively disposable income.
Unfortunately, that is the similar situation as Kickstarting something that isn't actually done and might be a hard sell.

 I agree with the ROI point of view.  I also think there have to be people out there who have made a bit, even if more from ongoing royalties and being prolific.  I can see some people being okay with what would be only a bit more than a return a savings account (low fucking bar I know) would return, or even just having hand in what could be a passion project.  I think it needs to be presented as such versus fishing for donations/pre sells.  I mean, what do the people producing have to lose?  Right now with a climate of "well if you dont like it, make your own!!"  I think the time is as good as it will ever be for the small guy to give seeking investment a try.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 30, 2021, 11:20:34 AM
  I get that, my thoughts are more along RPG specific answers.  I get the feeling that with WOTC firstly being a massive (compared to everyone else in RPGs) business, they do what they can to crush competition, and invoking the woke is a damned good way to pull that off these days and never have to hire one lawyer.  I was more inquiring if any of the smaller outfits, or individuals out there ever look for investors, hell Angel investor might be appropriate here.   I see people offering pre sales and such, but I can not ever remember seeing a creative looking for actual investors (they all seem to assume people playing RPGs are broke, and maybe lots are, but I get a feeling there are also lots of them who have resources (good careers, investments, etc) and might be willing.  I never see anyone really ask, but I may be in the wrong places to ever see it.

With PDF publishing being a thing, its probably easier to just self-publish with freeware art (or whatever you can make yourself) if you can't go through a crowdfunding source.

It takes a lot of work to actually pitch multiple real investors on a project, particularly one with a thin margin, until you find one who'll sign on compared to throwing together a promotional video and potentially pitching to everyone who does a search on Kickstarter for "RPG."

Most legitimate ones are going to also want a percentage of the company which means you're less free in terms of your creative vision since their interest will be on maximizing profits, which if you're not careful might mean they want you to go woke anyway, defeating the entire purpose of not going the crowdfunding method.

Frankly, if you really want a better final product and can't get crowdfunding, put out the freeware art and layouts version, then take any proceeds and reinvest those into a new edition (in the traditional publishing sense of the term... same content, different cover/art and maybe a new foreword) with commissioned art and professional layouts.

The bigger thing the non-woke might run into is major distribution points like DriveThruRPG caving to the woke and pulling your products. That's where finding alternate distribution systems are needed. My own plan is to have a storefront on the promotional site as a backup. The guy doing my site found reasonably priced packages that will digitally watermark every pdf sold with a unique number and another that will automatically contact an on-demand publisher for physical product orders (and most on demand publishers these days will stamp whatever return address you want on the package when they ship it out).

Quote from: Chris24601 on June 30, 2021, 12:37:29 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 30, 2021, 11:20:34 AM
  I get that, my thoughts are more along RPG specific answers.  I get the feeling that with WOTC firstly being a massive (compared to everyone else in RPGs) business, they do what they can to crush competition, and invoking the woke is a damned good way to pull that off these days and never have to hire one lawyer.  I was more inquiring if any of the smaller outfits, or individuals out there ever look for investors, hell Angel investor might be appropriate here.   I see people offering pre sales and such, but I can not ever remember seeing a creative looking for actual investors (they all seem to assume people playing RPGs are broke, and maybe lots are, but I get a feeling there are also lots of them who have resources (good careers, investments, etc) and might be willing.  I never see anyone really ask, but I may be in the wrong places to ever see it.

With PDF publishing being a thing, its probably easier to just self-publish with freeware art (or whatever you can make yourself) if you can't go through a crowdfunding source.

It takes a lot of work to actually pitch multiple real investors on a project, particularly one with a thin margin, until you find one who'll sign on compared to throwing together a promotional video and potentially pitching to everyone who does a search on Kickstarter for "RPG."

Most legitimate ones are going to also want a percentage of the company which means you're less free in terms of your creative vision since their interest will be on maximizing profits, which if you're not careful might mean they want you to go woke anyway, defeating the entire purpose of not going the crowdfunding method.

Frankly, if you really want a better final product and can't get crowdfunding, put out the freeware art and layouts version, then take any proceeds and reinvest those into a new edition (in the traditional publishing sense of the term... same content, different cover/art and maybe a new foreword) with commissioned art and professional layouts.

The bigger thing the non-woke might run into is major distribution points like DriveThruRPG caving to the woke and pulling your products. That's where finding alternate distribution systems are needed. My own plan is to have a storefront on the promotional site as a backup. The guy doing my site found reasonably priced packages that will digitally watermark every pdf sold with a unique number and another that will automatically contact an on-demand publisher for physical product orders (and most on demand publishers these days will stamp whatever return address you want on the package when they ship it out).

  I would agree seeking some level of investment can mean a bit less control...if you sign something that gives over less control.  There are equity only investment deals, and usually where they can create a snag is when you go to sell a company or take on more investors.    The storefront I think is a necessity given the tone of what we are discussing.  I think all manner of investment deals can be reached, where the creator/little guy gives only as much as comfort level allows.  "legitimate' regarding an investor is a relative question I think.  I also have no idea what would constitute a substantial investment in producing a product relative to scale of the project.  Is 5k, 10k, 15k, 100k...more?  I am unfamiliar with what level or scale would even be meaningful.

In terms of investment, I'd already have the writing done before I even launched any crowdfunding or investment pitch and most of the budget I was seeking was mostly to cover the cost of additional commissioned art, a professional copy editor, some miscellaneous web/legal fees before the official launch, and the cost of an initial print run for the backers (and the crowdfunder's percentage obviously).

The only "gimmicks" I had in mind were immediate draft pdf copies for backers (basically proof the product isn't vaporware), names in the backers section and physical/pdf copies of the final product.

If crowdfunding isn't going to work, I've already sunk all the funding I'd need into the tools to do the art myself (commissioned work was mostly a way to speed up production), forego the professional editor for the first printing, eat the legal/web fees and skip any initial backer print run.

Doing all the art myself would be a delay, but would keep my own investment to mostly time if I'm foregoing crowdfunding. As the saying goes, you can have any two of fast, cheap or good; your choice. Crowdfunding would mean I could afford fast and good. My second choice is good and cheap (minimal additional personal investment in this case), which if I'm not beholden to backers, is also doable.

Quote from: moonsweeper on June 30, 2021, 12:18:34 PM
The ROI is a problem in the case of RPGs.  Maybe if you can get people who view it more as a 'donation'...effectively disposable income.
Unfortunately, that is the similar situation as Kickstarting something that isn't actually done and might be a hard sell.

Maybe if it was considered as a charitable donation or something that could be used as a tax write-off?

Quote from: Chris24601 on June 30, 2021, 01:57:33 PM
In terms of investment, I'd already have the writing done before I even launched any crowdfunding or investment pitch and most of the budget I was seeking was mostly to cover the cost of additional commissioned art, a professional copy editor, some miscellaneous web/legal fees before the official launch, and the cost of an initial print run for the backers (and the crowdfunder's percentage obviously).

The only "gimmicks" I had in mind were immediate draft pdf copies for backers (basically proof the product isn't vaporware), names in the backers section and physical/pdf copies of the final product.

If crowdfunding isn't going to work, I've already sunk all the funding I'd need into the tools to do the art myself (commissioned work was mostly a way to speed up production), forego the professional editor for the first printing, eat the legal/web fees and skip any initial backer print run.

Doing all the art myself would be a delay, but would keep my own investment to mostly time if I'm foregoing crowdfunding. As the saying goes, you can have any two of fast, cheap or good; your choice. Crowdfunding would mean I could afford fast and good. My second choice is good and cheap (minimal additional personal investment in this case), which if I'm not beholden to backers, is also doable.

  If you could give me scale for amounts that would be good to know.  Meaning, if you had more to work with at the beginning, what amount would make it possible to leverage a better product; 1k, 5k, 10k, 15k, more?  That is more the lines of what I wonder. 

Quote from: jeff37923 on June 30, 2021, 02:42:22 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on June 30, 2021, 12:18:34 PM
The ROI is a problem in the case of RPGs.  Maybe if you can get people who view it more as a 'donation'...effectively disposable income.
Unfortunately, that is the similar situation as Kickstarting something that isn't actually done and might be a hard sell.

Maybe if it was considered as a charitable donation or something that could be used as a tax write-off?

unfortunately, no way to do that legally unless they are a non-profit.

  Matter of fact, anyone in the industry (tech or RPG) have an idea what it would cost to get a distribution portal up and running? 

Quote from: moonsweeper on June 30, 2021, 03:18:13 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on June 30, 2021, 02:42:22 PM

Quote from: moonsweeper on June 30, 2021, 12:18:34 PM
The ROI is a problem in the case of RPGs.  Maybe if you can get people who view it more as a 'donation'...effectively disposable income.
Unfortunately, that is the similar situation as Kickstarting something that isn't actually done and might be a hard sell.

Maybe if it was considered as a charitable donation or something that could be used as a tax write-off?

unfortunately, no way to do that legally unless they are a non-profit.

  The good news I guess is investment losses are tax deductible, and can be carried forward.