Quote from: SeanchaiIf you like that style of combat, etc.. The Riddle of Steel is more than just Spiritual Attributes.

Seanchai

Of course. They don't call you Seanchai the Scalpel for nothing, do they?

Quote from: TimOf course. They don't call you Seanchai the Scalpel for nothing, do they?

There's a thread here about how fans overstating the case when it comes to their favorite game can actually hurt their cause.

A blanket statement like "it's wonderful for short-form games with pre-generated characters" isn't a) true and b) helpful to bystanders.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiA blanket statement like "it's wonderful for short-form games with pre-generated characters" isn't a) true and b) helpful to bystanders.

Seanchai

Sure it's true!

I've ran two one-shots with pre-gen characters using TRoS and they were both wonderful games largely due to SAs. I've had the same experience running numerous one-shots with Burning Wheel largely due to Beliefs which, like I stated earlier, I believe to be SAs done right. I think SAs are excellent tools for setting up conflict and motivation for characters due to the results I've gotten at the table. Sure this is all just subjective opinion, but I was taught in 10th grade creative writing that it's redundant to put "In my opinion" before every opinion that one states.

And hell yes it's helpful to bystanders. People talking about SAs on internet forums are what got me into TRoS and BW and I've enjoyed both games very much.

As far as the rest of the system is concerned, I didn't address it because I thought those subjects were covered well in the first three or four pages of the thread. For the record I think the combat system leads to great bloody 'dangerous' RPG fights. The rest of the system (skills/magic) is best described as serviceable.

So, excuse me Seanchai for talking about an aspect of a game that I think is cool and exciting and assuming the reader could inform himself about the other aspects of the system from the rest of the thread. Henceforth I will endeavor to become as cynical, jaded, and incisive as you, you paragon of critical thought and opinion giving!

Quote from: SosthenesI don't see a reason why spirit attributes would be any more complicated for campaign games than GURPS patrons, enemies, fanaticism etc.

One reason is that unless your SA's come into play you don't gain experience and you never advance.  All advancement comes from fulfilling your SA's.   Killing that dragon, does nothing unless killing that dragon furthers your cause.   While I personally think that makes sense in a story perspective.  I do believe a person would gain some experience from killing that dragon.  Of course that begs the question that if you are putting dragon in, why doesn't it have any reason in the story.  

However - it may only have importance to 1 character and the rest are just along for the ride.

Quote from: kryystOne reason is that unless your SA's come into play you don't gain experience and you never advance.  All advancement comes from fulfilling your SA's.   Killing that dragon, does nothing unless killing that dragon furthers your cause.   While I personally think that makes sense in a story perspective.  I do believe a person would gain some experience from killing that dragon.  Of course that begs the question that if you are putting dragon in, why doesn't it have any reason in the story.  

However - it may only have importance to 1 character and the rest are just along for the ride.

I think for the game's fans that's a feature, not a bug.  Tim's comments are interesting, because I can entirely see how for a one-shot with pregens you could tailor the SAs to the adventure and get a game where the characters were really tied to the in game fiction, which could be cool.

It also makes the game IMO a profound artistic failure, because that was not what it was designed for.  If you read the design notes it's very plainly and quite explicitly an attempt to do DnD "right", it's entirely in reaction to stuff the designer didn't like about DnD and an attempt to make stuff more realistic.  As such, I think it was intended to support campaign play, but it don't for the reasons you point out.

Then some of the indie crowd spotted you could use it in a way never intended to run short term very intense thematic games, and clearly it does deliver on that.  But it's not what it's designed for.  Also, it relies on houseruling SAs to a degree, if you read Ron Edward's posts on it he changed the rules about SA replenishment pretty dramatically and in doing so fundamentally changed the tone of the game.

Now, I think it's cool the indie guys made an intense short term play game out of it, but I genuinely think they brought that to the table, it's not in the game as written.  They saw a potential the author had himself missed, which is cool, but artistically it fails for me because it does not do what it was actually built for.

It may be a great hammer, but it was meant to be a screwdriver.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is a historical moment, this is the first time I'm going to disagree with something Balbinus has said. I even feel kinda guilty
 

Quote from: BalbinusIt also makes the game IMO a profound artistic failure, because that was not what it was designed for.  If you read the design notes it's very plainly and quite explicitly an attempt to do DnD "right", it's entirely in reaction to stuff the designer didn't like about DnD and an attempt to make stuff more realistic.  As such, I think it was intended to support campaign play, but it don't for the reasons you point out.

I don't think the author's intention was doing D&D right (TROS doesn't resemble D&D at all), if anything, his intention was doing Dzikie Pola his way. The main inspirations for TROS (as the author himself admits) are Dzikie Pola and Warhammer (and a little bit of Shadowrun), not D&D. From Dzikie Pola it takes the meaningful choices during combat (no "I whack you, you whack me"), from Warhammer the grittiness (for example, the damage charts).

By the way, it's the revised edition which has got the allusion to D&D, the unrevised edition hasn't got any allusion to D&D at all.

Balbinus, it's great to see you around again.

Quote from: TimAnd hell yes it's helpful to bystanders.

Really, no, it's not.

Quote from: TimSo, excuse me Seanchai for talking about an aspect of a game that I think is cool and exciting and assuming the reader could inform himself about the other aspects of the system from the rest of the thread. Henceforth I will endeavor to become as cynical, jaded, and incisive as you, you paragon of critical thought and opinion giving!

So you're one of those fans that when someone has something negative to say about your favorite system or points out that it's not for everyone, you attack them personally. Gotcha.

Seanchai